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In ZvT vs mech.
Is it better to get the armor upgrades considering that Mutalisk is a small unit and takes 50% from Goliaths explosive damage plus it is split into two missiles.
So each missile does 10 x .5 = 5 for a total of ten damage per volley.
(I'm not sure where exactly armor factors into the equation)
so it's either;
2(10-1 x .5) = 9 , or 2(10 x .5)-1 = 8
On the other hand, Mutalisk will do more ricochet damage to a heap of goliaths with attack ups.
Armor is also good against Valkyries.
Attack is also good for harassment and turrets.
Armor costs more than Attack.
When ling/muta, muta absorb hits while lings do the damage.
Say a pile of 12 goliaths vs 12 mutas where both players target each other's units 1 by 1 but do not micro units around. What is better in this situation? Now change it to 24, what is better? 36?
Now factor in goliath attack upgrades, base is 20 which gains +4 each upgrade (or 2 per missile) with a max of 32 (or 16 per missile).
10/12/14/16
Is armor more effective vs smaller groups of units and vs less upgraded goliaths? Or vise versa?
Poll: Better vs goliath
(Vote): Armor
(Vote): Attack
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Armor, but uhm mutas will do more damage than lings and if you have lings expect vultures.
Oh and i dont get your math at all ~.~
But yeah since they count for 2, each armor will reduce damage by 2.
Also, gols do 75% damage to every zerg air unit except for ovies(100%) and scourges(50%), hmm devourers also seem to take full damage.
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I think the zealot attack is the only attack in broodwar that splits an attack in two no?
Otherwise I learned something new today :p
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Goliaths, Wraiths etc. all have 2 attacks.
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On February 01 2009 22:21 KlaCkoN wrote:
I think the zealot attack is the only attack in broodwar that splits an attack in two no?
Otherwise I learned something new today :p
you learned something new then 
i believe there are other units that get multiple hits subtracted such as firebats and scouts/wraiths air to air (i think) and carriers get -1 for each interceptor so thats like -8.
i can't remember if there are any other units that get multiple armor subtractions or not tho
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On February 01 2009 22:01 Cloud wrote:
Armor, but uhm mutas will do more damage than lings and if you have lings expect vultures.
Oh and i dont get your math at all ~.~
But yeah since they count for 2, each armor will reduce damage by 2.
Also, gols do 75% damage to every zerg air unit except for ovies(100%) and scourges(50%), hmm devourers also seem to take full damage.
Wrong. The missile attack is attack type explosive. This deals 50 percent to small units and mutalisks are most definitely small.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_types
http://www.battle.net/scc/gs/damage.shtml
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On February 01 2009 22:48 Shikyo wrote:
Goliaths, Wraiths etc. all have 2 attacks.
Goliaths do but wraiths don't
The armor is a much better choice because goliaths do explosive damage and the mutalisk is a small unit.
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Firebats have 2 attacks too
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On February 02 2009 00:52 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
Firebats have 2 attacks too
I thought firebats have 3?
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On February 02 2009 00:56 sixghost wrote:I thought firebats have 3?
i thought it was one..
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if the golis are charon upgraded you're fucked
but setting that aside
armor would be better i guess
slows down the rate of rape
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This is how armor, attack type and unit size works out:
(Number of attacks)(Damage-Armor)x(Attack type and unit type)=Damage dealt
So in the goliath vs mutalisk it works like this:
2(10-1)x0.5=9
Basicly, if it's explosive vs small unit size, every armor point only reduces 0.5 damage. So you get no advantage from upgrading armor because of unit types.
Everything in sc works that way, but the firebat attack is a bitch to apply it on since angles and shit matters for the amount of damage there.
Mutalisk ricochet attack (if anyone wonders) works like this (assuming one attack upgrade on muts):
First Hit: 9+1=10
Second Hit: (9+1)/3=3.333
Third Hit: (9+1)/9=1.1111
The sc engine appears to be able to handle any relevant number of decimals (as far as I remember) so the 0.3333 and 0.1111 etc extra damage will count. It will work like this (taking the second hit scenario, once again assuming +1 attack muta):
Unit gets hit by Second Hit once: 3dmg, 3dmg total
Unit gets hit by Second Hit twice: 3dmg, 6dmg total
Unit gets hit by Second Hit thrice: 4dmg, 10dmg total
Not considering enemy armor.
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There's a discrepancy in your post Charlie.
"So each missile does 10/.5 = 5 for a total of ten damage per volley."
It would be 10x0.5=5, if I'm not mistaken.
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Only the queen recieves 75%, muta and scourge receive 50% and guardian/devourer/overlord recieve 100%. Wraith's rockets are 1 source of damage and will be reduced by armor once.
Here's how the damage calculation is done:
1. Reduction from splash zone(damage is multiplied by 0.25/0.5/1.0)
2. Armor amount reduction
3. Armor type reduction
If it's a protoss unit and:
a) Currently has no shields, just the armor type and amount of the unit are used.
b) It has shields, the shield upgrade amount is used and the armor type takes 100% from everything. If this attack depletes the shields, the leftover damage after depleting the shields is calculated again as in case a)
The minimum damage from an attack is 0.5 and this does not apply twice for the separate shield/hp calculations for protoss units. Damage amount is rounded to 1/256.
Units with special attacks:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zealot - 2 attacks by 8 + 1 per upgrade
Scout Air - 2 attacks by 14 + 1 per upgrade
Goliath Air - 2 attacks by 10 + 2 per upgrade
Firebat - 3 attacks by 8 + 1 per upgrade, even burrowed lurkers can be hit by all 3 attacks, it just depends on the angle of attack(the amount shoed is hardcoded to be the damage of 2 of the attacks added up, but all three are upgraded and each deals 8 damage base)
Lurker - several attacks by 20 + 2 per upgrade, with the restriction that only 1 attack can hit a single unit and all of them have only 100% splash(the 50% and 25% areas are the same as the 100%, so a unit can't take partial damage from the lurker's attack). A bug can override this rule, this happens when the lurker dies the exact moment it attacks, then a unit can be hit by several of the attacks, it's easily noticable with full hp marines dying to a single lurker.
Valk - 8 attacks by 6 + 1 per upgrade, if there are multiple units in the 100% splash zone, only one will take 100% damage and the others will take 50%. The same aplies to corsairs.
Mutalisk bounces deal 1/3 less than the previous bounce, for example +1 damage muta against 3 targets with 1 armor will deal 10 - 1 = 9 on the first hit, 10 / 3 - 1 = 2.333...(rounded to the nearest 1/256) on the second hit and 10 / 9 - 1 = 0.111... upped to 0.5, which is the minimum damage, on the third hit.
Devourer spores increase damage from each attack by 1 per spore, this includes spell damage.
Not an unit attack, but since it affects attacks: Defensive matrix reduces attack damage to the minimum - 0.5, this includes spell damage. The total damage prevented is 250, but this does not acount the minimum damage inflicted or the unit's armor, so a zergling with 5 damage will perish the shield in 50 hits and still deal 25 damage, no matter the target's armor and the end effect will be 225 damage absorbed on a unit with 0 armor and even less on a unit with several points of armor(if the target has 5 armor, for example, having Defensive Matrix will not make any difference).
An exception to these 2 is the plague, which doesn't deal damage, but directly removes hp, so it doesn't interact with defensive matrix or acid spores.
Nukes deal:
Against units/buildings with 750 or less total maximum HP + shields -> 500, 250, 125 explosive damage.
Against units/buildings with 750 or more total maximum HP + shields ->
2/3, 1/3, 1/6 of the total maximum HP + shields.
The three values are for the 100%, 50% and 25% splash zones ofc.
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I think the answer depends on what you want to use mutas for, but consider this.
Mutas are really for absorbing Gol damage. They are the BEST tanks against Gols.
Gols take 3 shots to kill a zergling, 7 against a hydra, but a whopping 13 (factor in the muta HP regeneration) against Mutas. So muta = tank.
Also, mutas without attack upgrade do 8 damage to goliaths (plus like 2 for splash). Hydras do 9. Zerglings do 4. But hydras and zerglings attack much faster than Mutas. So hydra + zergling = damage dealers.
However, Gol with 1 attack upgrade will kill in 11 because Gol does 12 damage per volley (factor in HP regeneration). With Muta armor upgrade, Gol with 1 attack upgrade will do 11 damage per volley, so Gol will kill muta in 12 (factor in 2 HP regeneration points).
So basically mutas get their lives extended a little by getting one armor upgrade so that your other units deal damage.
In contrast, if you upgraded attack, well gols used to die in 125/8 = 16 hits and now they die in 125/9 = 14 hits. Well, you save 2 muta volleys I guess but if you're using mutas as tanks, they were never really supposed to take out gols anyway, so 16=>14 is not big enough of a difference.
So my conclusion is that the bigger question that you should ask is -- should mutas be used as a tank or not?
The poll and most progamers I've seen seem to say that they should be used as meat shields.
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Tanks, Damage Dealer, Healer. TvZ sounds just like WoW
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On February 02 2009 04:24 Lord_of_Chaos wrote:
This is how armor, attack type and unit size works out:
(Number of attacks)(Damage-Armor)x(Attack type and unit type)=Damage dealt
So in the goliath vs mutalisk it works like this:
2(10-1)x0.5=9
Basicly, if it's explosive vs small unit size, every armor point only reduces 0.5 damage. So you get no advantage from upgrading armor because of unit types.
Everything in sc works that way, but the firebat attack is a bitch to apply it on since angles and shit matters for the amount of damage there.
Mutalisk ricochet attack (if anyone wonders) works like this (assuming one attack upgrade on muts):
First Hit: 9+1=10
Second Hit: (9+1)/3=3.333
Third Hit: (9+1)/9=1.1111
The sc engine appears to be able to handle any relevant number of decimals (as far as I remember) so the 0.3333 and 0.1111 etc extra damage will count. It will work like this (taking the second hit scenario, once again assuming +1 attack muta):
Unit gets hit by Second Hit once: 3dmg, 3dmg total
Unit gets hit by Second Hit twice: 3dmg, 6dmg total
Unit gets hit by Second Hit thrice: 4dmg, 10dmg total
Not considering enemy armor.
It doesn't display 4 damage being dealt until the 4th hit. A 10 hp unit won't die until the 4th round of hits, if it's taking the 2nd hit each time. Because of the rounding, it's only taken 9.999 damage after 3 hits.
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On February 02 2009 07:19 nK)Duke wrote:
Tanks, Damage Dealer, Healer. TvZ sounds just like WoW
WoW is awesome cause it has the SC fundamentals under all the mmorpg garbage
back on to the subject, yes armor is better because of what has been said, mutas are the tanks in a muta/hydra/ling or any sort of combination of those vs goliaths
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its all in the numbers =]
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All +1 attack would do is make it 10-3-1 damage per glaive, whereas the +1 armor would actually be useful.
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On February 02 2009 07:24 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2009 04:24 Lord_of_Chaos wrote:
This is how armor, attack type and unit size works out:
(Number of attacks)(Damage-Armor)x(Attack type and unit type)=Damage dealt
So in the goliath vs mutalisk it works like this:
2(10-1)x0.5=9
Basicly, if it's explosive vs small unit size, every armor point only reduces 0.5 damage. So you get no advantage from upgrading armor because of unit types.
Everything in sc works that way, but the firebat attack is a bitch to apply it on since angles and shit matters for the amount of damage there.
Mutalisk ricochet attack (if anyone wonders) works like this (assuming one attack upgrade on muts):
First Hit: 9+1=10
Second Hit: (9+1)/3=3.333
Third Hit: (9+1)/9=1.1111
The sc engine appears to be able to handle any relevant number of decimals (as far as I remember) so the 0.3333 and 0.1111 etc extra damage will count. It will work like this (taking the second hit scenario, once again assuming +1 attack muta):
Unit gets hit by Second Hit once: 3dmg, 3dmg total
Unit gets hit by Second Hit twice: 3dmg, 6dmg total
Unit gets hit by Second Hit thrice: 4dmg, 10dmg total
Not considering enemy armor. It doesn't display 4 damage being dealt until the 4th hit. A 10 hp unit won't die until the 4th round of hits, if it's taking the 2nd hit each time. Because of the rounding, it's only taken 9.999 damage after 3 hits.
cool, didn't know/think about that. I stand corrected unless someone proves you worng 
On February 02 2009 14:10 onihunter wrote:
All +1 attack would do is make it 10-3-1 damage per glaive, whereas the +1 armor would actually be useful.
excellent input mate.
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Also, the minimum unit of damage dealt with is .5; at least, that's the damage you always do to a unit even if the unit's armor exceeds the attacker's damage, so that's what will always be dealt by the last glaive regardless of armor.
EDIT: Also, remember that goliaths have inherent 1 point of armor, so glaive is relatively weak at 8-2-.5.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
It always amazes me that in any strategy discussion of upgrades/attack/armor/damage, so many people always come in with incredibly, unbelievably detailed treatises on how splash and armor and d-matrix and split attacks work.
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i would think muta armor would be better to soak up the damage of the goliath's 1 mile ranged attack so your mutas don't die before they get there.
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Wraiths, Goliaths, and Zealots have two attacks.
Firebats have three.
That's about all I remember.
But armor definitely.
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On February 03 2009 06:49 Archaic wrote:
Wraiths, Goliaths, and Zealots have two attacks.
Firebats have three.
That's about all I remember.
But armor definitely.
... Wraiths have one attack, goliath ground has one attack.
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Great post lololol! Everything is in there. ^^
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United States42244 Posts
On February 03 2009 07:34 conCentrate9 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2009 06:49 Archaic wrote:
Wraiths, Goliaths, and Zealots have two attacks.
Firebats have three.
That's about all I remember.
But armor definitely. ... Wraiths have one attack, goliath ground has one attack.
I thought wraith and scout ATA was two.
Firebat being 3 is odd. I heard something about it being 3 attacks, all doing 8, but overlapping so only 2 can ever hit a single target.
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Wow, should I copy my post on every page?
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On February 03 2009 09:23 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2009 07:34 conCentrate9 wrote:On February 03 2009 06:49 Archaic wrote:
Wraiths, Goliaths, and Zealots have two attacks.
Firebats have three.
That's about all I remember.
But armor definitely. ... Wraiths have one attack, goliath ground has one attack. I thought wraith and scout ATA was two. Firebat being 3 is odd. I heard something about it being 3 attacks, all doing 8, but overlapping so only 2 can ever hit a single target.
Scout air to air is two, but the wraith's two missiles fire as one attack.
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definitely armor.. valks are the prob though.
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On February 02 2009 04:36 TrainReq wrote:
There's a discrepancy in your post Charlie.
"So each missile does 10/.5 = 5 for a total of ten damage per volley."
It would be 10x0.5=5, if I'm not mistaken.
yea I failed fractions in 6th grade >.< I always mix up the division/multiplication because it just doesn't sound right in my head. Normally when you multiply something it gets bigger, when you divide something it gets smaller. Fractions are the opposite.
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well the armor would help scourge survive crit mass of valks a bit, no?
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On February 05 2009 10:00 bumatlarge wrote:
well the armor would help scourge survive crit mass of valks a bit, no?
It doesn't matter AT ALL. A valkyries does 6x8 = 48 damage. +1 armor on scourge reduces that to 40 damage. Lets say the terran has 6 valkyries, the valks does 360 damage together instead of 408. I think the scourges will die anyway lol.
I don't know what we're discussing but if it's what upgrade for mutalisks against mech it's ALWAYS armor. Always Always Always Always Always Always Always
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Armor, unless your mutas are owning already, flying and harassing doesn't really require attack.
better for long term too if you decide to use queens/ovie drop.
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Kind of off topic, but if a muta hits a unit that has 2 other units near it, all with 9 acid spores, will the muta do 9+9+3+9+1+9 = 40 damage per hit!? Assuming the units don't have any armor.
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Each mutalisk attack upgrade will increase its damage over base by 12.5%
Each mutalisk defense upgrade will increase its damage soak over base by 10%
A mutalisk, unless permitted no heal time, will be able to absorb one extra volley with +1 armour, and will be able to kill a goliath in 2 fewer hits with +1 attack.
Furthermore, against all other targets (tanks, SCVs) the mutalisk defense values are irrelevant
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EPT
