Hey guys, I decided to do an fpvod on straight up pvt on python. When I say straight up, I mean no drops, no reavers, etc. I wanted to show how to ez mode win with protoss just 1a2a3a'ing the terran at a C- level. This is aimed at D/D+/C- protoss players to hopefully help you out in PvT against standard turtle terrans.
Note: As I am C- I am no where near pro, so keep that in mind
My apm in this game was about 240, with my opponent's at 250 (opponent was 3980 C- terran).
1: The difference between 11 and 12 gas is the timing of when you can get your goon range started by. I just felt like mentioning this in case noobs were thinking "why cut probes to get gas at 11 when u could just do it a little later and it probably doesn't affect much" 2: The gateway placement at my wall off at 3 o'clock is very intentional. Gateway placement like this allows units to pop out on the left side, so that late game I can produce goons as well as zealots from those gateways and still use them with my army. This prevents trapped goons if i forget and accidentally build a goon at those gateways. 3: The cannon placement at bottom right is also very intentional. I used this placement to block off the probes so that vultures can't go into the mineral line itself. This helps keep the vultures farther away from my probes so that I can bring the probes to the gas to avoid getting shot when he's target firing and my cannons are killing them.
Here's the youtubes (it's 20 minutes long so had to split it into 2 parts):
Awesome FPVOD. Great commentary, it gave me a lot of insight and how to react according to what Terran does. Thanks so much =p. If possible please continue with the FPVODs. I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate it. Also liked how you posted a download-able, youtube, and replay version. Really helps a lot!
Small question; it seems like in the pro gamer scene and the foreign scene, carrier pvt use to be the fav thing to do, now its really switched to an arbiter heavy game. What makes Arbiters more advantageous than Arbiters? :S
Did you really say you think that playing 6 vs 3 is the optimal positions?? Then cross spot, and worst 6 vs 9? Dunno if you mixed up the positions or not.
Because its totally the other way, Cross is easiest, then 9, then 3. When you are playing at the 6 position. Tho I guess you can make arguments for 9 being as hard as 3 (example sieging via the island into your main) But cross positions is without a doubt the best pos to play vs.
Also using the 3 natural as your 3rd is probably the worst expo you can take vs 12 beside the upper left corner, since he then can take his min only while he pushes against your 3rd with the wall working as a good defense for him by limiting your flanking options. The corner expo, your min only or the 3 main or both the 9 expos would all have been better choices.
Another thing I was rather surprised by was that you sent several new probes when the scout probe died, its way easier just keeping it at his choke and move back every time he moves out with the marines or just use goons for scouting if you lose your probe. You want all your probes mining
Beside these few things I really liked the VOD and it contained lots of useful tips for low ranked players like pylonwalls, goon positioning etc. And you explained your thoughts behind your actions well. Keep up the good job.
You can upload a maximum of 11 minutes actually. Youtube says 10 but it's actually 11.
I suck at defending against drops too. Especially early game drops. They are so devastating with speed vultures. The hardest thing is realizing people are dropping me
I believe this guy used 2 dropships to drop you because you can't really elevator vultures. This Terran was a HORRIBLE noob. Staying off of 2 bases is just ridiculous. This was like a +3 timing push or something without the third base/+3 attack. 17 minutes into the game and you aren't even maxed. You didn't even reach 200/200 that game I think. That means you have a problem with your macro. I don't quite know what it is, since your minerals were low, but this terran was just lol. I can't believe he was almost C too :/
On February 01 2009 09:31 Dazed_Spy wrote: Small question; it seems like in the pro gamer scene and the foreign scene, carrier pvt use to be the fav thing to do, now its really switched to an arbiter heavy game. What makes Arbiters more advantageous than Arbiters? :S
Well, maybe one kind of Arbiters is more advantageous than another kind because it's in the hands of a better player?
I like the vod, but in the early/mid portions you make a few condescending remarks out of the blue that hurt the overall quality of the video (ie addressing things to "the D+ noobs out there" or whatever, it comes off poorly here). It doesn't help that this guy makes really bizarre choices that are easy to point out as big mistakes. Might want to be a more conscious about it in the next one, otherwise solid vod overall.
Seriously this dude much cherry pick like hell to be almost C. Or maybe he really wanted to try mass drops and didn't plan out the game enough to decide how he was going to play late game.
There are some maps that Carriers are better then Arbiters and vice versa. It also depends on the player. Some like Arbiters better.
Overall Arbiters allows you to be more mobile with your army via recall and stasis helps even the big macro battles out, espcially if you can nail 4-6 tanks with 1 shot.
Carriers are a costly investment and take time to mass. You don't go at a Terran with 2 Carriers and expect to win. You need at least 4-5 before using them so they are effective. Not to mention if the Terran sees the Carrier switch, he'll be prepared with Goliaths or Wraiths.
Was a good commentary. Explained small tidbits of information that really help out those players looking for it or not realizing flaws in their gameplay.
On February 01 2009 09:31 Dazed_Spy wrote: Small question; it seems like in the pro gamer scene and the foreign scene, carrier pvt use to be the fav thing to do, now its really switched to an arbiter heavy game. What makes Arbiters more advantageous than Arbiters? :S
Well I think it's more a matter of preference really. I am personally terrible at using carriers. I think my win percentage of games where I went to carriers is something like 10% or less. It's not that I can't micro them, but I think I overdo it and get a ton, and you really need to just get a bunch with a powerful ground army to back them up.
In any case, arbiters are more mobile and have a larger variety of uses. Stasis is great for holding off a big terran push, and recall is ridiculously powerful (to the point of instant-win in many situations such as this game), not to mention the fact that arbiters cloak your army, so if he is out of scans/forgets to scan/doesn't have turrets around, that can give you advantages in certain places.
On February 01 2009 09:32 Oystein wrote:Because its totally the other way, Cross is easiest, then 9, then 3. When you are playing at the 6 position. Tho I guess you can make arguments for 9 being as hard as 3 (example sieging via the island into your main) But cross positions is without a doubt the best pos to play vs.
Thanks for the general positive feedback, I like your vods a lot too . As for the positions, maybe it's just at the C- level, but whenever I play against a terran at close positions, they ALWAYS slow siege along the cliff, and I always have a terrible time trying to break it. And yeah, you're right I should have expanded to the 9 natural rather than 3, I wasn't really thinking about which one would be best. Thanks
On February 01 2009 09:39 Racenilatr wrote:17 minutes into the game and you aren't even maxed. You didn't even reach 200/200 that game I think. That means you have a problem with your macro. I don't quite know what it is, since your minerals were low, but this terran was just lol
It was the harass really I think. He was dropping me in multiple locations at once (main + expo) and since I'm slow to react, it was hurting my economy little by little every time he did it.
On February 01 2009 10:06 heyoka wrote: I like the vod, but in the early/mid portions you make a few condescending remarks out of the blue that hurt the overall quality of the video (ie addressing things to "the D+ noobs out there
Alright I'll try to avoid that kind of stuff next time. I guess I took it out of tasteless's book, because he often refers to any non-pros as newbs, and yet when he says it, it somehow comes off in a non-negative way so that it just sounds like he's referring to a group of people rather than insulting them. That's really what I was trying to say, but I suppose you're right and I could have just said "D+ players" instead of "D+ noobs"
On February 01 2009 09:31 Dazed_Spy wrote: Small question; it seems like in the pro gamer scene and the foreign scene, carrier pvt use to be the fav thing to do, now its really switched to an arbiter heavy game. What makes Arbiters more advantageous than Arbiters? :S
Well, maybe one kind of Arbiters is more advantageous than another kind because it's in the hands of a better player?
?
What?
I accidentally an Arbiter.
Anyway, the main advantage of arbiters over carriers is that it requires a less intensive investment, and they are useful from pretty much the moment they come out. On the other hand, carriers are useless one by one, and you need to wait for numbers to build up a little.
Because arbiters drain less of your income, you can maintain a strong ground army, while if you are going for carriers your ground army won't be as strong and I think it creates a timing where you are vulnerable. The strength of carriers also seem to be more dependent on map characteristics than arbiters as well.
Uhh the main reason i use arbiters is because lately in PvT, upgrades have become a huge thing. Before, I used to be able to take 2-3 carriers and start harassing while i keep adding more, but 3-3 goliaths put a stop to taht.
plus, arbs are less big of an investment as others said.
Well you are honest about where you are coming from and all that so I wont be too critical, and the vod may help some. But whats with the 1a2a3a remarks from a p player >_>....I thought it might be mass zealot/goon early win or something, but it was harass game and a arb recall ending. One thing about 11assim vs 12 though. When you got range you had 40gas extra...it was mins holding you back more than gas. When you want a bit faster goon/range players go 13core/19range instead of usual 14/20, cut at 11 has nothing to do with it. Can hardly think of a reason to cut at 11 besides some early gas intensive build like dt drop perhaps. Though depending on map/min layout/plit sometimes you can 11assim with constant production still.
On February 01 2009 11:14 Knickknack wrote:But whats with the 1a2a3a remarks from a p player >_>
Well cause when you look to improve in pvt against the terran ball, usually you look to use more micro-intensive methods like getting templar with storm, getting zealot/dt bombs, etc, but when I engaged his main push of tanks, I just attack moved really. Didn't have anything special except for that one recall on top of his tanks which wasn't even necessary. And of course the recall at the end was just so he'd know to leave since he'd lost at that point anyways.
o ya, i forgot to mention it, well i didnt forget because I couldn't confirm it until I watched the replay. You only had like 8 gateways literally the whole game. with 3 bases, you can get at least 10 gateways just to let you know then add a couple more gateways after you get a fourth but not too many, because your main should be mined out or almost mined out.
I usually wait until I'm maxed (which didn't happen this game iirc) to drop like 10 more gateways to be able to rebuild after a recall, but yeah in general my gateways were a little low this game.
Pretty good effort it shows how to 1a2a3a pretty well especially since you completely bypassed storm. On your economy though you could have been able to do both pretty easily. Oh and I have to disagree with taking the natural first, and on that map you should be taking that corner position and maybe do the gateway production there and at your main so you can still flank successfully.
Overall though pretty nice, even though I definitely would rather Stasis than Recall
On February 02 2009 02:34 Amber[LighT] wrote: Nice I finally had a chance to watch this 8)
Pretty good effort it shows how to 1a2a3a pretty well especially since you completely bypassed storm. On your economy though you could have been able to do both pretty easily. Oh and I have to disagree with taking the natural first, and on that map you should be taking that corner position and maybe do the gateway production there and at your main so you can still flank successfully.
Overall though pretty nice, even though I definitely would rather Stasis than Recall
Two completely different playstyles
I explained why I didn't take the corner earlier. Every protoss always takes it, and terrans are always ready for it waiting. I just like it mix it up so they don't see my expansion coming quite as quickly.
Nice video. You played well and explained you thought process well. Though I have no idea how your opponent can be almost C. He expanded very late. He played a 2 base game but did no timing pushes or any attempts to actually take a third. Maybe it's becaue I play alot on Colosseum / Destination lately but I have trouble at the c- rank with people that are WAY better than that guy. Though I guess Colosseum for terran requires no brain and just good macro.
On February 02 2009 08:45 StarBrift wrote: Nice video. You played well and explained you thought process well. Though I have no idea how your opponent can be almost C. He expanded very late. He played a 2 base game but did no timing pushes or any attempts to actually take a third. Maybe it's becaue I play alot on Colosseum / Destination lately but I have trouble at the c- rank with people that are WAY better than that guy. Though I guess Colosseum for terran requires no brain and just good macro.
Everyone has good and bad games. maybe this guy was just having a bad game.
On the other hand, maybe he was using it as a practice game to practice his drops/harass. He really was dropping me in multiple places at the same time frequently.
He probably thought he was doing more damage with it than he really was, so he didn't expand. Still, he really should have taken the island, it would have been so easy for him to take.
On February 03 2009 08:48 howdid wrote: you know it was a nice video but to be honest i have played lost of D/D+ players better than that terran, who you suggest was C+?
he wasn't C+, he was C- almost C. His rating was 3980, I'm not suggesting anything, the rating is prooved in the video lol.
Anyways it's late in the season, so in the first couple weeks of the season there might be D/D+ terrans better than that guy, but at this point in the season there's no way you'll see a D terran better than that guy unless he's a smurf/resetted stats.
I really really wish some Terrans could get a sense of timing. That player's harass was pretty good and his macro was adequate - but for god's sake, he took his third when the Protoss was 2 bases ahead after his arbs had popped, what was his plan?
Good VOD. I think the people commenting fail to realize that C- isnt pro and that mistakes are going to be made and they will be obvious, thats why we are C-. But it was a GG, improvements for you would be macro basically =p.
And Im going to say go with the standard third. Although every toss does it, theres a good reason. If T went for his mineral only your third was fucked.
My guess is Terran was either trying out a different build order or he was on an off day. You made very good advice though, and it will definetly help. Im about the same level as you, similar playstyles probably. Im slower with 160-180 APM but im just a macro whore. 1a2a3a toss is the way to go for C ranks =D
On February 03 2009 10:14 Hundredth wrote: I really really wish some Terrans could get a sense of timing. That player's harass was pretty good and his macro was adequate - but for god's sake, he took his third when the Protoss was 2 bases ahead after his arbs had popped, what was his plan?
It's a wonder to be protoss. Bascially it consists of:
1) Expand 2) Move goons outside terrans natural so he cant vult harass 3) put obs everywhere 4) take 6-7 bases, THEN get an adequately sized army and laugh your way to a victory.
On February 03 2009 10:14 Hundredth wrote: I really really wish some Terrans could get a sense of timing. That player's harass was pretty good and his macro was adequate - but for god's sake, he took his third when the Protoss was 2 bases ahead after his arbs had popped, what was his plan?
It's a wonder to be protoss. Bascially it consists of:
1) Expand 2) Move goons outside terrans natural so he cant vult harass 3) put obs everywhere 4) take 6-7 bases, THEN get an adequately sized army and laugh your way to a victory.
They so baaaaad.
lolz, except you can't leave your goons outside his nat, the vults will just run around.
I used to do that when I was D/D+, but it's just so much easier to wall-off/leave goons at your chokes/etc.
I watched it and the Terran player was horrible. Most try to take an early third so perhaps you can do another VOD where the terran tries to get to 200/200 2/1 and then attack you. That will be helpful to the people that struggle against Terrans who turtle off 3 base (or 4 base on andromeda/medusa).
On February 04 2009 08:38 Yaqoob wrote: I watched it and the Terran player was horrible. Most try to take an early third so perhaps you can do another VOD where the terran tries to get to 200/200 2/1 and then attack you. That will be helpful to the people that struggle against Terrans who turtle off 3 base (or 4 base on andromeda/medusa).
Yeah i plan on it but the problem is I can't host, so I just join games and hope they're terran and HOPE they'll do a strategy I want them to do so that me recording an fpvod of it isn't a total waste of time lol.
EPT
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