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On December 26 2008 15:09 Dr.Dragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 15:03 JMave wrote:
Ya I think the 10 seconds is a really big deal. I mean if you have good micro, you can probably over-run the protoss. I don't think this build is meant to kill the protoss but its probably to smack his playing rhythm out of order.. like having to cancel his natural expansion.. WHICH IS HUGE BY THE WAY.
PS: What's IIRC and IMHO? if i recall correctly/in my honest opinion We know the build isn't necessarily to kill, but it's still a big gamble compared to a normal, safe FD. You pretty much just pray the enemy is greedy..I'd rather just do some 2fac all-in. Edit: Damn you skyglow!!!! Is it humble? I thought it was honest. Owell
Dunno i've heard both lol.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Thanks for the translation!
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Thanks for the translation!
But I think this BO is pointless because you can execute the same concept using a regular build with more marines. You can even cut back 1 scv and create another marine while sending additional 2 scvs for destroying the natural. All while having vulture for reinforcement. The emphasis is to create additional marines while your build cuts back economy earlier.
Edit: Maybe I need to see a replay of this. I doubt it would be anything more spectacular than your original pump additional marines. Just don't see how cutting back your economy so early for a build order that might happen or not.
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On December 26 2008 17:40 Sins wrote:
Thanks for the translation!
But I think this BO is pointless because you can execute the same concept using a regular build with more marines. You can even cut back 1 scv and create another marine while sending additional 2 scvs for destroying the natural. All while having vulture for reinforcement. The emphasis is to create additional marines while your build cuts back economy earlier.
Edit: Maybe I need to see a replay of this. I doubt it would be anything more spectacular than your original pump additional marines. Just don't see how cutting back your economy so early for a build order that might happen or not.
Go on the PGR21 thread for the replay^^
At the top of the page, "File #1 10초빠른FD.rep (46.7 KB)"
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When I tried watching the replay a prompt said, "this scenario is intended for use Starcraft Expansion set" but I have broodwars. I think the replay hand hangul so I need the korean version? Well, the replay wont be a important since the build order has faults. For instance if the protoss decided to make 2 gates opening the build will be pretty bad since 2 gates rapes most of the time 1 fact. Of course the protoss will need average goon micro which is not tough at all.
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On December 26 2008 19:28 Sins wrote:
When I tried watching the replay a prompt said, "this scenario is intended for use Starcraft Expansion set" but I have broodwars.
Simply change the replays name so there's no longer any Korean letters and it works.
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That would be great if we could do another thread when with links for all PGR21 translation. We would have easy access for every translated PGR21 thread and that's cool. What do you think about that? 
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On December 26 2008 20:06 Phrogs! wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 19:28 Sins wrote:
When I tried watching the replay a prompt said, "this scenario is intended for use Starcraft Expansion set" but I have broodwars. Simply change the replays name so there's no longer any Korean letters and it works.
Thanks I did not know that!
Well, I viewed the replay and one word sticks to my mind! OMFG! The Terran doesn't even scout the toss so how will he know where to target his base. If he shoots the goon and it starts to fall back will he assume that's the location of the protoss' base? This is all for 10 secs earlier? The build order is terrible even for a 1v1 map like bluestorm because the time when terran moves out the toss will have 2 goons ready and one coming really really soon. So the protoss can delay him just a little longer and will eventually have 4 goons ready to own 1 tank 4 marines 1 vulture (another vulture coming). This is IF he goes one gate which is a risk on it's own. It's a terrible build order! I would rather have 7 marines 1 tank, 1 vultures and others coming (also I would know where he is).
Are the other koreans agreeing with this build order? are they rating this build order well? because I really can't see the advantageous part in this. Am I wrong or can someone else agree with me on this?
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Thanks for the translation. I found this very interesting and went on to create a commentated FPvod of it, to test it out. I'm uploading it now and will post a link here and in my blog. =D
The 10 seconds helps immensely. Thought it's true you'll hit 3 goons either way, the 10 seconds sooner means that their 4th goon arrives that much later. That's a big deal!
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I just watched your VOD Nintu and I still think it sucks hard. Also the little time you had there against the toss wasn't enough to destroy a Nexus. Also if the toss hadn't killed his goons he would be at a higher advantage. In addition why was the protoss taking soo long to counter? The toss did go 1 gate, so why not make 1 reaver or DTs at the appropriate time. It just seems that if protoss have decided to attack your tank when the vulture was out of range it would have been more devastating. Or why not just attack the Vulture and wipe the floor with the goons.
I honestly think it's a poor option from the other many better ones. You're a very good player I can tell by your action however there's so much flaw in the build order. I've seen the video and hopefully others will agree with me that it's too risky.
Edit: Also Nintu can you please PM me the replay or post the replay on your next posting, I would like to further review what the protoss was doing during the time he was stopping your harass. Thanks for sharing your video.
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Well, Hwasin uses this build a lot.
Tell him he sucks. I think it's justifiable.
His TvP has been lewl-able lately.
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i guess ill have to give it some more tries, seems like its abit risky though since if he does 1gate exp u can punnish him pretty good 10 seconds later.
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On December 27 2008 03:58 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
i guess ill have to give it some more tries, seems like its abit risky though since if he does 1gate exp u can punnish him pretty good 10 seconds later.
Well what you said was true earlier on. It's a bit of a leap of faith in that you can't scout too early, and you just assume the toss will be greedy. Your FD can do quite a bit though if they tech, or do an eco opening.
I don't think this build is AMAZING, I just like the concept and enjoy doing it. It absolutely destroys nexus before gate aswell.
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On December 26 2008 11:48 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 11:41 ramen247 wrote:On December 26 2008 11:22 Zoler wrote:Please please please translate a good TvT guide next! Someone.. NO. TVZ priority! TvZ is so ez, no depth. TvT is a way harder MU, I think most terrans agree with this.
YES AGREED. I would say TvT is not only the hardest mirror MU (after having both zerg and toss as my main in the past) but the hardest MU out of all of them.
I would love a well written TvT guide soooo much. Please someone out there! 
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im sure he only picked this to easily stop eventual 2gate rushes.
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What is an FD rush anyway ??  (yeah I kno, I'ma noob, oh well)
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On January 18 2009 02:29 Pheel0 wrote:What is an FD rush anyway ?? (yeah I kno, I'ma noob, oh well)
I'm not a terran player, but if I recall correctly:
You push out with similar unit as a double factory push, but instead of having two factories, and rushing, you have one, and you just expand.
You usually push out with a tank, 4-5 marines, and maybe a vulture or two. Comes out around the time when P has 4-5 goons, but with 10 second faster tank, then P may only have 3-4, which is a big advantage.
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On January 18 2009 02:35 Archaic wrote:
I'm not a terran player, but if I recall correctly:
You push out with similar unit as a double factory push, but instead of having two factories, and rushing, you have one, and you just expand.
You usually push out with a tank, 4-5 marines, and maybe a vulture or two. Comes out around the time when P has 4-5 goons, but with 10 second faster tank, then P may only have 3-4, which is a big advantage.
K, thx. Now I know how is the move T usually destroys' me with called lol.
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I have tried this build about 10 times. generally it will even out the economies but good players can push back FD anyway. Its better to just normal FD and get an academy and 8 rines.. It works with really close positions when they send their goon sout but either way it gets to their base when they have the same number of goons from a normal FD so it useless..
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I think luckdouble is a shity build on iccup with all the DT trash and chees builds going arround. However I think this build is even more trash especialy on 1n1 maps wich are prety large in rush distance and on any 4p map when you dont spawn close. You delay your CC and eco even more than with a standard FD and you wont deal any damage whatsoever against a 1gate nexus protoss who can decently micro his goons or just went 2 gate powergoon.
Its only better vs a 1 gate DT rush cause you can plant your mines further away but against 2 gate powergoons its trash imo. Against 1 gate/robo its shit to cause the protoss can actualy kill you, cause your economy is delayed so much siege expand and the 2th fact comes later.
Just my 2 cents, it just isnt my build order, siege expand FTW.
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EPT
