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As promised, I’m doing a couple translations off of Pgr21 (as inspired by SuperJongMan and Super 2 fac). I didn’t realize this was so short, so I’ll do another one after.
Here is the original thread:
http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&page=2&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1642
Here is the translation:
This is a build that Hwasin showed us on bnet attack
In this build, the first tank comes out about 10 seconds faster than a normal FD build.
In the replay, the tank comes out at 4 minutes 9 seconds.
The build order goes like this:
9.5 supply
10 barracks
10 gas
From here, constant SCVs and get a bunch of marines like in a normal FD.
Here’s the timing from the protoss perspective: In a 1 gate build, if they got a zealot, they will be moving out of their entrance with 3 dragoons at 4:21 into the game. Thus, the 10 second faster first tank gives this rush a large advantage.
I’m everyone knows what to do after this with an FD… take an expo, micro well to push toss back into his main, mine up his natural. *translation end*
I thought this was interesting, should give some unsuspecting tosses a run for their money even if they know what’s coming… just not WHEN
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Thanks OMin, though I'm quite curious as to how much this hurts a terran's economy compared to a 12/12 or 11/11 FD. Are there any notes in the comments about this?
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thanks for the translations
keep it up it is much appreciated
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As a protoss player, I endorse this guide.
More anti-protoss guides would be nice; we need to improve our micro!
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i am hoping for a tvz next. theres gotta be an awesome full fledged tvz guide there.
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Fuck I feel so guilty for saying this, but the OP in PGR21 is followed by IMPORTANT DISCUSSIONS.
For example, to get the add-on as fast as possible, you're suppose to shift-click mineral with the scv that's going to build the factory; otherwise, it might waste valuable 2-5 seconds.
I will have time to translate in Feb (after mid-terms) but then there will be too much to translate -_-.
So please, although I (and probobly rest of TL) appreciate this, translate the follow-up discussions as well.
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Wow, 10 seconds? Geez. [no sarcasm btw]
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On December 25 2008 12:18 Seraphim wrote:
Wow, 10 seconds? Geez. [no sarcasm btw]
GG imba Terran?
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On December 25 2008 12:21 Archaic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 12:18 Seraphim wrote:
Wow, 10 seconds? Geez. [no sarcasm btw] GG imba Terran?
For real, isn't being the best race in Starcraft enough for you greedy fucks?
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On December 25 2008 12:17 Wala.Revolution wrote:
Fuck I feel so guilty for saying this, but the OP in PGR21 is followed by IMPORTANT DISCUSSIONS.
For example, to get the add-on as fast as possible, you're suppose to shift-click mineral with the scv that's going to build the factory; otherwise, it might waste valuable 2-5 seconds.
I will have time to translate in Feb (after mid-terms) but then there will be too much to translate -_-.
So please, although I (and probobly rest of TL) appreciate this, translate the follow-up discussions as well.
I'm a super slow reader when it comes to Korean, I was born in cali and lived there all my life... it would take me forever to get through the discussions 
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thanks again for translating these, this is awesome
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On December 25 2008 12:35 selboN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 12:21 Archaic wrote:On December 25 2008 12:18 Seraphim wrote:
Wow, 10 seconds? Geez. [no sarcasm btw] GG imba Terran? For real, isn't being the best race in Starcraft enough for you greedy fucks?
let's not turn this into a race wars thread. If it's that imbalanced, you would think to just switch races? =O
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This strategy is too weak economically. And the tank is only out 5 seconds earlier than with the standard 4.14 tank FDBuild.
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10 seconds (if executed perfectly) for a build that might cost you 2 scvs is not what I'm looking for.
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omfg so THATS what it is >_> I fucknig hate that build
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On December 25 2008 12:17 Wala.Revolution wrote:
Fuck I feel so guilty for saying this, but the OP in PGR21 is followed by IMPORTANT DISCUSSIONS.
For example, to get the add-on as fast as possible, you're suppose to shift-click mineral with the scv that's going to build the factory; otherwise, it might waste valuable 2-5 seconds.
I will have time to translate in Feb (after mid-terms) but then there will be too much to translate -_-.
So please, although I (and probobly rest of TL) appreciate this, translate the follow-up discussions as well.
I thought that you always shift-click everything but the supply depot SCV's...
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upmagic did this is some Spirit game on bluestorm, i remember it very well... artosis spoke about it.. it's not really new
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this build feels like worthless taken out of it's "context"..
I mean if one really feels like the opponent and the map is needy for a marginal faster rush then usual then yes,, but that feels like something you worry about at pro level..
For me getting the timing just right might not be happening all that often so that means like 5-10 sek gain...
hrmm.. it's just no good to me
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On December 25 2008 12:17 Wala.Revolution wrote:
Fuck I feel so guilty for saying this, but the OP in PGR21 is followed by IMPORTANT DISCUSSIONS.
For example, to get the add-on as fast as possible, you're suppose to shift-click mineral with the scv that's going to build the factory; otherwise, it might waste valuable 2-5 seconds.
I will have time to translate in Feb (after mid-terms) but then there will be too much to translate -_-.
So please, although I (and probobly rest of TL) appreciate this, translate the follow-up discussions as well.
wait when my scv is building my factory, i click on my scv ( green circle) and then i press shift + left click on mineral patch nothing seems to happen, nor does anything happens when i right clic. could u explain please
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CA10828 Posts
On December 26 2008 00:11 [Fin]Vittu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 12:17 Wala.Revolution wrote:
Fuck I feel so guilty for saying this, but the OP in PGR21 is followed by IMPORTANT DISCUSSIONS.
For example, to get the add-on as fast as possible, you're suppose to shift-click mineral with the scv that's going to build the factory; otherwise, it might waste valuable 2-5 seconds.
I will have time to translate in Feb (after mid-terms) but then there will be too much to translate -_-.
So please, although I (and probobly rest of TL) appreciate this, translate the follow-up discussions as well. wait when my scv is building my factory, i click on my scv ( green circle) and then i press shift + left click on mineral patch nothing seems to happen, nor does anything happens when i right clic. could u explain please
you have to give it the next command before it starts making the factory.
you would click the scv, "vf" for factory wherever then "shift-rightclick" a mineral patch.
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On December 25 2008 21:58 losso wrote:
upmagic did this is some Spirit game on bluestorm, i remember it very well... artosis spoke about it.. it's not really new
Who said new?
It's a cool little build variation, though overall somewhat weaker than standard fd because of the cut scvs, it still is good to have things like this stored in your sc archives to mix up your play. This is the kind of thing that would not come up in our forums without some translating from korean sites. It's impressive how much emphasis they put on things like shift clicking your factory building scv. Just a few of the little things that make the gap between koreans and foreigners so huge.
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This build's is nice... for those who think 10 seconds faster doesn't mean much,
10 seconds can be HELL OF A LOT of time when the toss is say 1 gate expo'ing or 2 gate 4 goon expo'ing. It's the difference between offensive position of goon vs bein confronted with FD forces right infront of your nexus, and the difference between 4 goon offensive position vs 2 goon offensive positioned and 2 leaving the base. The difference can be quite big, and I've used this build more than a couple of times, and the faster timing can really screw over greedy tosses.
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On December 26 2008 08:31 irY.Evergreen wrote:
This build's is nice... for those who think 10 seconds faster doesn't mean much,
10 seconds can be HELL OF A LOT of time when the toss is say 1 gate expo'ing or 2 gate 4 goon expo'ing. It's the difference between offensive position of goon vs bein confronted with FD forces right infront of your nexus, and the difference between 4 goon offensive position vs 2 goon offensive positioned and 2 leaving the base. The difference can be quite big, and I've used this build more than a couple of times, and the faster timing can really screw over greedy tosses.
Yes, we know 10 seconds can make a huge difference. However 2 early scvs also makes a huge difference. FDPush wasn't meant to kill the toss in the first place, why make it more of an all-in move? If he 2gates the FD isnt the best option, rather take defensive position and mine up ur natural when u take exp.
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On December 26 2008 09:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 08:31 irY.Evergreen wrote:
This build's is nice... for those who think 10 seconds faster doesn't mean much,
10 seconds can be HELL OF A LOT of time when the toss is say 1 gate expo'ing or 2 gate 4 goon expo'ing. It's the difference between offensive position of goon vs bein confronted with FD forces right infront of your nexus, and the difference between 4 goon offensive position vs 2 goon offensive positioned and 2 leaving the base. The difference can be quite big, and I've used this build more than a couple of times, and the faster timing can really screw over greedy tosses. Yes, we know 10 seconds can make a huge difference. However 2 early scvs also makes a huge difference. FDPush wasn't meant to kill the toss in the first place, why make it more of an all-in move? If he 2gates the FD isnt the best option, rather take defensive position and mine up ur natural when u take exp.
This build is SPECIFICALLY for tosses that justs plays greedy (i.e. me) who likes to expo with 1 gate 3goons, etc.
Again, follow-up discussion is a must read T_T.
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So 9,5 supply mean you should build your supply at 10/10? This is pretty weird.
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when the 10th scv is half way 
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On December 26 2008 09:02 Wala.Revolution wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 09:00 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On December 26 2008 08:31 irY.Evergreen wrote:
This build's is nice... for those who think 10 seconds faster doesn't mean much,
10 seconds can be HELL OF A LOT of time when the toss is say 1 gate expo'ing or 2 gate 4 goon expo'ing. It's the difference between offensive position of goon vs bein confronted with FD forces right infront of your nexus, and the difference between 4 goon offensive position vs 2 goon offensive positioned and 2 leaving the base. The difference can be quite big, and I've used this build more than a couple of times, and the faster timing can really screw over greedy tosses. Yes, we know 10 seconds can make a huge difference. However 2 early scvs also makes a huge difference. FDPush wasn't meant to kill the toss in the first place, why make it more of an all-in move? If he 2gates the FD isnt the best option, rather take defensive position and mine up ur natural when u take exp. This build is SPECIFICALLY for tosses that justs plays greedy (i.e. me) who likes to expo with 1 gate 3goons, etc. Again, follow-up discussion is a must read T_T.
Yes but you cannot scout before you chose to do this strategy, which makes it more of an all-in move than the normal, safe old FD.
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lol i didnt think koreans ever used phrases like a bunch of rines
FD still sucks
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Fuck, I just lost my long response.
In short, there were discussions in PGR21's thread about scouting/economy issue. The idea was it was a risk worth taking due to the possible reward that the toss will either get contained/cancel nat IIRC.
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Please please please translate a good TvT guide next! 
Someone..
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On December 26 2008 11:22 Zoler wrote:Please please please translate a good TvT guide next! Someone..
NO. TVZ priority!
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On December 26 2008 11:41 ramen247 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 11:22 Zoler wrote:Please please please translate a good TvT guide next! Someone.. NO. TVZ priority!
TvZ is so ez, no depth. TvT is a way harder MU, I think most terrans agree with this.
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Thanks for the translation.
However, I feel that this guide is for players who compete at very high levels. Otherwise, a single miss-micro will easily cost you the 5-10 seconds you have gained.
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vouching for the TvT guide, only because theres just one really outdated (maybe three really really outdated) guides on TvT
I would like a guide with something referring to Terran map control, or something that can be applied to all three match ups, though.
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On December 26 2008 10:05 Piy wrote:lol i didnt think koreans ever used phrases like a bunch of rines FD still sucks
hey bro, if you want to go ahead and translate everything word for word so things no longer make sense even if its in english, be my guest
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this 10 seconds is 10 seconds faster than the PERFECT execution of the normal FD build.
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Ya I think the 10 seconds is a really big deal. I mean if you have good micro, you can probably over-run the protoss. I don't think this build is meant to kill the protoss but its probably to smack his playing rhythm out of order.. like having to cancel his natural expansion.. WHICH IS HUGE BY THE WAY.
PS: What's IIRC and IMHO?
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On December 26 2008 15:03 JMave wrote:
Ya I think the 10 seconds is a really big deal. I mean if you have good micro, you can probably over-run the protoss. I don't think this build is meant to kill the protoss but its probably to smack his playing rhythm out of order.. like having to cancel his natural expansion.. WHICH IS HUGE BY THE WAY.
PS: What's IIRC and IMHO?
If I remember correctly and in my humble opinion.
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On December 26 2008 15:03 JMave wrote:
Ya I think the 10 seconds is a really big deal. I mean if you have good micro, you can probably over-run the protoss. I don't think this build is meant to kill the protoss but its probably to smack his playing rhythm out of order.. like having to cancel his natural expansion.. WHICH IS HUGE BY THE WAY.
PS: What's IIRC and IMHO?
if i recall correctly/in my honest opinion
We know the build isn't necessarily to kill, but it's still a big gamble compared to a normal, safe FD. You pretty much just pray the enemy is greedy..I'd rather just do some 2fac all-in.
Edit: Damn you skyglow!!!! Is it humble? I thought it was honest. Owell
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On December 26 2008 15:09 Dr.Dragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 15:03 JMave wrote:
Ya I think the 10 seconds is a really big deal. I mean if you have good micro, you can probably over-run the protoss. I don't think this build is meant to kill the protoss but its probably to smack his playing rhythm out of order.. like having to cancel his natural expansion.. WHICH IS HUGE BY THE WAY.
PS: What's IIRC and IMHO? if i recall correctly/in my honest opinion We know the build isn't necessarily to kill, but it's still a big gamble compared to a normal, safe FD. You pretty much just pray the enemy is greedy..I'd rather just do some 2fac all-in. Edit: Damn you skyglow!!!! Is it humble? I thought it was honest. Owell
Dunno i've heard both lol.
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Katowice25012 Posts
Thanks for the translation!
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Thanks for the translation!
But I think this BO is pointless because you can execute the same concept using a regular build with more marines. You can even cut back 1 scv and create another marine while sending additional 2 scvs for destroying the natural. All while having vulture for reinforcement. The emphasis is to create additional marines while your build cuts back economy earlier.
Edit: Maybe I need to see a replay of this. I doubt it would be anything more spectacular than your original pump additional marines. Just don't see how cutting back your economy so early for a build order that might happen or not.
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On December 26 2008 17:40 Sins wrote:
Thanks for the translation!
But I think this BO is pointless because you can execute the same concept using a regular build with more marines. You can even cut back 1 scv and create another marine while sending additional 2 scvs for destroying the natural. All while having vulture for reinforcement. The emphasis is to create additional marines while your build cuts back economy earlier.
Edit: Maybe I need to see a replay of this. I doubt it would be anything more spectacular than your original pump additional marines. Just don't see how cutting back your economy so early for a build order that might happen or not.
Go on the PGR21 thread for the replay^^
At the top of the page, "File #1 10초빠른FD.rep (46.7 KB)"
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When I tried watching the replay a prompt said, "this scenario is intended for use Starcraft Expansion set" but I have broodwars. I think the replay hand hangul so I need the korean version? Well, the replay wont be a important since the build order has faults. For instance if the protoss decided to make 2 gates opening the build will be pretty bad since 2 gates rapes most of the time 1 fact. Of course the protoss will need average goon micro which is not tough at all.
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On December 26 2008 19:28 Sins wrote:
When I tried watching the replay a prompt said, "this scenario is intended for use Starcraft Expansion set" but I have broodwars.
Simply change the replays name so there's no longer any Korean letters and it works.
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That would be great if we could do another thread when with links for all PGR21 translation. We would have easy access for every translated PGR21 thread and that's cool. What do you think about that?
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On December 26 2008 20:06 Phrogs! wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 19:28 Sins wrote:
When I tried watching the replay a prompt said, "this scenario is intended for use Starcraft Expansion set" but I have broodwars. Simply change the replays name so there's no longer any Korean letters and it works.
Thanks I did not know that!
Well, I viewed the replay and one word sticks to my mind! OMFG! The Terran doesn't even scout the toss so how will he know where to target his base. If he shoots the goon and it starts to fall back will he assume that's the location of the protoss' base? This is all for 10 secs earlier? The build order is terrible even for a 1v1 map like bluestorm because the time when terran moves out the toss will have 2 goons ready and one coming really really soon. So the protoss can delay him just a little longer and will eventually have 4 goons ready to own 1 tank 4 marines 1 vulture (another vulture coming). This is IF he goes one gate which is a risk on it's own. It's a terrible build order! I would rather have 7 marines 1 tank, 1 vultures and others coming (also I would know where he is).
Are the other koreans agreeing with this build order? are they rating this build order well? because I really can't see the advantageous part in this. Am I wrong or can someone else agree with me on this?
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Thanks for the translation. I found this very interesting and went on to create a commentated FPvod of it, to test it out. I'm uploading it now and will post a link here and in my blog. =D
The 10 seconds helps immensely. Thought it's true you'll hit 3 goons either way, the 10 seconds sooner means that their 4th goon arrives that much later. That's a big deal!
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I just watched your VOD Nintu and I still think it sucks hard. Also the little time you had there against the toss wasn't enough to destroy a Nexus. Also if the toss hadn't killed his goons he would be at a higher advantage. In addition why was the protoss taking soo long to counter? The toss did go 1 gate, so why not make 1 reaver or DTs at the appropriate time. It just seems that if protoss have decided to attack your tank when the vulture was out of range it would have been more devastating. Or why not just attack the Vulture and wipe the floor with the goons.
I honestly think it's a poor option from the other many better ones. You're a very good player I can tell by your action however there's so much flaw in the build order. I've seen the video and hopefully others will agree with me that it's too risky.
Edit: Also Nintu can you please PM me the replay or post the replay on your next posting, I would like to further review what the protoss was doing during the time he was stopping your harass. Thanks for sharing your video.
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Well, Hwasin uses this build a lot.
Tell him he sucks. I think it's justifiable.
His TvP has been lewl-able lately.
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i guess ill have to give it some more tries, seems like its abit risky though since if he does 1gate exp u can punnish him pretty good 10 seconds later.
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On December 27 2008 03:58 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
i guess ill have to give it some more tries, seems like its abit risky though since if he does 1gate exp u can punnish him pretty good 10 seconds later.
Well what you said was true earlier on. It's a bit of a leap of faith in that you can't scout too early, and you just assume the toss will be greedy. Your FD can do quite a bit though if they tech, or do an eco opening.
I don't think this build is AMAZING, I just like the concept and enjoy doing it. It absolutely destroys nexus before gate aswell.
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On December 26 2008 11:48 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 11:41 ramen247 wrote:On December 26 2008 11:22 Zoler wrote:Please please please translate a good TvT guide next! Someone.. NO. TVZ priority! TvZ is so ez, no depth. TvT is a way harder MU, I think most terrans agree with this.
YES AGREED. I would say TvT is not only the hardest mirror MU (after having both zerg and toss as my main in the past) but the hardest MU out of all of them.
I would love a well written TvT guide soooo much. Please someone out there!
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im sure he only picked this to easily stop eventual 2gate rushes.
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What is an FD rush anyway ?? (yeah I kno, I'ma noob, oh well)
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On January 18 2009 02:29 Pheel0 wrote:What is an FD rush anyway ?? (yeah I kno, I'ma noob, oh well)
I'm not a terran player, but if I recall correctly:
You push out with similar unit as a double factory push, but instead of having two factories, and rushing, you have one, and you just expand.
You usually push out with a tank, 4-5 marines, and maybe a vulture or two. Comes out around the time when P has 4-5 goons, but with 10 second faster tank, then P may only have 3-4, which is a big advantage.
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On January 18 2009 02:35 Archaic wrote:
I'm not a terran player, but if I recall correctly:
You push out with similar unit as a double factory push, but instead of having two factories, and rushing, you have one, and you just expand.
You usually push out with a tank, 4-5 marines, and maybe a vulture or two. Comes out around the time when P has 4-5 goons, but with 10 second faster tank, then P may only have 3-4, which is a big advantage.
K, thx. Now I know how is the move T usually destroys' me with called lol.
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I have tried this build about 10 times. generally it will even out the economies but good players can push back FD anyway. Its better to just normal FD and get an academy and 8 rines.. It works with really close positions when they send their goon sout but either way it gets to their base when they have the same number of goons from a normal FD so it useless..
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I think luckdouble is a shity build on iccup with all the DT trash and chees builds going arround. However I think this build is even more trash especialy on 1n1 maps wich are prety large in rush distance and on any 4p map when you dont spawn close. You delay your CC and eco even more than with a standard FD and you wont deal any damage whatsoever against a 1gate nexus protoss who can decently micro his goons or just went 2 gate powergoon.
Its only better vs a 1 gate DT rush cause you can plant your mines further away but against 2 gate powergoons its trash imo. Against 1 gate/robo its shit to cause the protoss can actualy kill you, cause your economy is delayed so much siege expand and the 2th fact comes later.
Just my 2 cents, it just isnt my build order, siege expand FTW.
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this is interesting but only effective against 1gate FEing P.
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On January 18 2009 05:11 Stimpacked wrote:
this is interesting but only effective against 1gate FEing P.
that is against 50% protosses on iccup, the other half goes fast DT
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This BO is actually good, dunno why people are saying its useless and slow - guess they can't micro -.- but 2 fac or siege expo is better from my experience (and seen in pro vods)
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Why are people calling this build trash? It gives a considerable early advantage if done right. If protoss gets too greedy, it may even be GG.
Hope to read more translations 
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United States42638 Posts
On December 27 2008 16:52 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 11:48 Zoler wrote:On December 26 2008 11:41 ramen247 wrote:On December 26 2008 11:22 Zoler wrote:Please please please translate a good TvT guide next! Someone.. NO. TVZ priority! TvZ is so ez, no depth. TvT is a way harder MU, I think most terrans agree with this. YES AGREED. I would say TvT is not only the hardest mirror MU (after having both zerg and toss as my main in the past) but the hardest MU out of all of them. I would love a well written TvT guide soooo much. Please someone out there!
The hardest mirror matchup? Surely if TvT is hard your opponent will also be finding it tough so it'll be fair. And the opposite in PvP, if it's easy then it's easy for him which is by definition tough for you. Your statement is absurd.
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On January 18 2009 19:50 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2008 16:52 Grobyc wrote:On December 26 2008 11:48 Zoler wrote:On December 26 2008 11:41 ramen247 wrote:On December 26 2008 11:22 Zoler wrote:Please please please translate a good TvT guide next! Someone.. NO. TVZ priority! TvZ is so ez, no depth. TvT is a way harder MU, I think most terrans agree with this. YES AGREED. I would say TvT is not only the hardest mirror MU (after having both zerg and toss as my main in the past) but the hardest MU out of all of them. I would love a well written TvT guide soooo much. Please someone out there! The hardest mirror matchup? Surely if TvT is hard your opponent will also be finding it tough so it'll be fair. And the opposite in PvP, if it's easy then it's easy for him which is by definition tough for you. Your statement is absurd.
hard=hard to understand, I think
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I do some variation of it :
Rax 9th scv , depot when 100 , gas when 100 more .
Scv asap (10th) (11th) , marin (12 ..to deny scout or probe harras) , at this exact time gas is finished , send one scv and the 13th goes in gas. Marin 14,factory 14 .
Take 2 scv from gas to mine. Depot 15 , scv/ marin ,continue scv marin till 20 when your factory is finished ; send 1 more scv to gas ( so u got 2 in) and continue scv and marines till 6 while doing your first tank, start scouting when u started tank and go out with 2 scv 6 rin 1 tank and rally vultures on tank.
Why is it good? Because this is so early rush that you got map control early gam : protoss can't break this rush even if he trades his goon for your tank marines with trash micro then u still have the mines and vultures and at this moment he cant have obs ready or he will lose his goons ( even on choke). In my opinion this is very effective build, usually i delay my exp to make a vult drop while p is trying to diffuse mines. The eco is not that much hurted ; i mean if you delay your expo because u delayed P's expand i think it's a good deal. The point is that protoss will not take a very fast b3 after that early preasure , and lmost of the time he will waste untis to try to counter you when he did not planned it at start so it means it's most of the time easy to deal with.
A replay with the build perfectly done :
http://www.yousendit.com/download/WnBSM25PcTI4NVhIRGc9PQ
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EPT
