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On December 24 2008 23:59 frostynine wrote:
I've done a variation of this kinda build and so far I've won 2 games against koreans I believe is Bisu and Best since they had high APM! :O
It's very good against the thousands and thousands of D-ish protosses on ICCup, too.
What a small world we live in. Levity aside, most Koreans on iccup are much better than foreigners because they practice much more than we do. Sure, we all beat S-class progamers with all-in builds on ICCUP (sarcasm). Good job with the win though 
I want to see how this build fares against 2 gate range and shuttle reavers, as Miniroman said. With proper scouting, this could be a pretty viable build.
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Read this last night and played some games, used it 3 times and won all games. One guy tried to reaver me but I just ran all my SCVs and got tanks sieged up in his main and turrets down then there wasn't much he could do.
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The build doesn't produce any early rines, right? Then how is the wall supposed to hold - with pure SCVs? 2 gate range will give a toss with decent micro good chances at breaking the wall-in. When the tank comes out, it can't defend the wall adequately without siege or it will be sniped with good goon micro.
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On December 24 2008 06:28 iLovectrL wrote:Haha awesome build, haven't read it tho, but a super 2 fact sounds nice 
can i get a LOL?
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On December 25 2008 00:40 Xstatic wrote:
The build doesn't produce any early rines, right? Then how is the wall supposed to hold - with pure SCVs? 2 gate range will give a toss with decent micro good chances at breaking the wall-in. When the tank comes out, it can't defend the wall adequately without siege or it will be sniped with good goon micro.
Yeah it can, even with goon range unsieged tank's range is longer, you just have to use it wisely.
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True, but then you run in with 2-3 goons and get some shots off on that tank. I think it was Bisu vs. FBH, 1st game in their recent set, where Bisu put some sweet pressure on FBH, taking out tanks and rines and severely weakening FBH.
Most protoss are weaklings and run their units the moment tanks come out, though. Even then, they know something strange is going on when there are 0 rines in at the wall, probably a fact/port or some heavy factory build, so they have to put early pressure on.
The tank's unsieged range isn't long enough that it can hold a wall and stay out of goon range at the same time. Add in the fact that goons do lots of damage to the tank's paltry 150 hp and you realize that pure tanks without siege just won't hold up. You play toss noobs who cower at the sight of tanks, not realizing that the goon's 20 explosive damage deals 19 damage to the tank. Unsieged, the tank has very little range advantage over the goon other than the elevation, which is pretty much negated by the difference in hp (180 vs. 150, not counting recharging shields). Plus, tanks cost more than goons, factories cost more than gates, and generally goons will rape this build imo. Pulling SCVs to defend/repair the wall will only set you back.
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No, you just have to micro it correctly and repair it if need be. Lots of people 1 fac CC without any marines these days too so the build doesn't look odd.
And I know how much HP a tank has and the damage a goon does and I assure you I don't regularly play newb toss players -_-
And not to mention that the goons have to get through the damn block too, you can repair that to you know?!
"goons will generally rape this build imo"
As the OP stated a 2 gate range build will be the best counter to this build and it will come down to a micro war involving lots of mines being layed around the goons and them trying to defuse/drag them. 2 gate power goon is pretty much the protoss' best chance at defeating this build and not even that is guaranteed victory.
Only a newb will have his wall smashed open by goons, by the time the toss has any meaningful amount of them T will have 3 tanks and siege coming not to mention all the vults if needed.
Yes dancing goons are very effective against tank without siege but because of the wall they can only get minimal hits on the tank.
lol this is turning into a ridiculous amount of edits.
You get 2nd and 3rd tanks ASAP from your two facts.
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I stand corrected. But yes, micro is where it matters, and I really do think that dancing dragoons are powerful against tanks without siege. You're right about 1 fact CC; toss usually gets a nexus thinking that terran wants to expo and gets raped by this build.
Yes I know about the damn block; tanks aren't all that you're hitting. You hit the depot first, and when the scvs come to repair, whale on the scvs. Tank pops out and fires, hit the tank, hit the scvs when the tank retreats, rinse and repeat. Losing scvs isn't part of this build, and you'll have to get your second tank asap.
When do you get vultures out with mines? Not before the goons have been harassing for a while.
Too many edits, true. I'm laying off until I play more people who do this build and get owned =(
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The goons won't be harassing very much when you've got 3 tanks sitting behind your wall, and if they try they'll regret it.
Right I'm going out now, but if you wanna settle this with some kind of grudge match later just let me know
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oooooooooohhh....FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT
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On December 24 2008 23:59 frostynine wrote:
I've done a variation of this kinda build and so far I've won 2 games against koreans I believe is Bisu and Best since they had high APM! :O
Hi Park Sung Gyoon. Why do you need advice from teamliquid and why is your country set to 'Sweden'?
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Haha true, 3 tanks suck / deal with harass well. But then it's obvious terran is going for a push, and it comes down to unit positioning / micro, which protoss, being greedy with his expo, won't be able to respond to. If I were toss, I would cut probes and build up my army to match yours.
The problem is, if I play you to test this build and know you're using this build, I'm going 1 base with 3 gates / robotics and I won't expand, so it wouldn't be fair when you get rolled with your stuff :D
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Why test-practice this build vs 3 gate? Why use a 3 gate build if you are going to practice vs 2 fact? Makes no sense.
It's like learning to stop a bunker rush by 4 pooling.
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True; I guess it's pretty much 2 gates vs. 2 fact, preparing to get rolled. Terran push = imba without zealot bombing and flanking.
I'm so out of SC, damn finals.
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On December 25 2008 01:51 BlackStar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2008 23:59 frostynine wrote:
I've done a variation of this kinda build and so far I've won 2 games against koreans I believe is Bisu and Best since they had high APM! :O
Hi Park Sung Gyoon. Why do you need advice from teamliquid and why is your country set to 'Sweden'?
LMFAO. hes a scrub.
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On December 25 2008 02:07 Xstatic wrote:
True; I guess it's pretty much 2 gates vs. 2 fact, preparing to get rolled. Terran push = imba without zealot bombing and flanking.
I'm so out of SC, damn finals.
What? 2 gate range obs pretty much destroys this build.
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On December 25 2008 03:10 ramen247 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 01:51 BlackStar wrote:On December 24 2008 23:59 frostynine wrote:
I've done a variation of this kinda build and so far I've won 2 games against koreans I believe is Bisu and Best since they had high APM! :O
Hi Park Sung Gyoon. Why do you need advice from teamliquid and why is your country set to 'Sweden'? LMFAO. hes a scrub.
True, I'm a scrub.
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Thanks for the guide
Next one translate a TvZ build against 2 hatch!
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LastShadOw taught me to do a really strong 2 fac build similiar to this but without comsat so its more vulnerable but you need really good scouting and game sense...
I usually play with the flow and sense rather than specific time/supply timings though..
2 fac rushes really brightens your TvP as you learn timing senses more in depth.
I started doing only 2 fac rushes mass gaming tvp and after I won a lot, I got more comfortable and my FE games started to get so much better because I had more timing sense...
I dunno if that made sense but what Im trying to say is:
"If your TvP sux ass, start doing 2 fac only and when you start winning; you can start doing variations of FE's and Fac/Port You will feel more confident and better prepared for some reason"
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On December 25 2008 06:37 InfeSteD wrote:
I usually play with the flow and sense rather than specific time/supply timings though..
I think this is where korean community and foreign community differ.
I was looking over the strategy sections for korean websites and every korean replies are based on EXACT timing, even to the very second, and exact unit count. Heck, they even have different yet specific replies for different positions of the buildings for that same build. And so many times, posters reply with their own replays questioning what will happen against certain builds (instead of just asking a general question) and thread starter replies with his own replay with that same scenerio. It's insane how deep they get into...
To be honest, their guides are extremely boring to read. Too many timings and variables to keep in mind, it's like reading a math textbook. :r
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EPT
