On December 06 2008 10:39 Kwark wrote: I thought you may be trolling when you advocated one base carriers. But you weren't. You've put a lot of effort into this but some of what you're saying is plain wrong. Sorry.
2008/09/12 Incruit OSL 2008 Ro16 Group A Bisu vs Much
One-base carriers is popular on Plasma. It also used to be on island maps.
On December 06 2008 10:36 Mindcrime wrote: If you're trying to show that 7-8 sunks is typical, you need more and better examples than that. That was an atypical game in which Luxury was reviving a build that hadn't seen much, if any, use in a few years.
I'm afraid there's only so much even I can recall. Besides, the number of games required to show that it is typical, or even common, would be tremendous. I'm looking on what I still have on my hard drive but... I don't put my hopes too high.
Edit 1: I found this one:
2008/02/17 GomTV Star Invitational 2008 Ro16 Group A Game 4 Savior vs Mind
The sunken count rises to 6 before 9:00. Later he adds lurkers.
Edit 2: I also found this one:
2008/02/25 GomTV Star Invitational 2008 Ro8 Group A Flash vs Jaedong Set 3
This game's sunken count reaches 7 before the mutalisks come out.
Edit 3: That's it for tonight, I'm almost sleeping on my chair. [Zzz]
After watching several more 2-3 hatch mutas games, I'd say the typical number of sunkens is around 4-5 by default, instantly rising if the Terran player applies some pressure. As I have shown, a significant portion of these games feature 6 and above. I've rarely seen below 4 if marines had the slightest chance of knocking at the door.
I've fixed the language in the article, though, as to no longer sound like it is systematic; that wasn't my intention anyway. The wording is now: "... up to 7-8, whenever they feel some pressure, ..." which is more accurate.
On December 06 2008 10:22 daz wrote: cool post but i saw something and i had to point it out. when your talking about the fantasy vs ggplay game where ggplay continues to make mutalisks vs the tech, its not a failure to adapt, muta are actaully more effective vs terran metal then lurkers or are. Mutaling is actually the best counter against terran metal
Except there were hardly any zerglings in either game. Mutalisks don't do well against equal numbers of goliaths. And lurkers would have fared better than hydralisks, especially for the drops.
yeah i have no idea why he didnt make zerglings but im just trying to say mutalisks are definetly the better choice against metal over lurkers or hydras
Aside from the exaggeration about the 7+ sunkens this was actually quite a good post. Onepost had several good points and followed through with relevant games to illustrate. Like I said some of his examples were a bit extreme but that's no reason to discredit the whole guide. If nothing else this brought up several great games.
Lol @ the "better" players . Yes, yes, god forbid someone who isn't NEARLY as knowledgeable make an effort on an informative post. Yes, shame on them for some misleading examples that make the whole write-up completely worthless to someone your level.
On December 06 2008 13:11 roadrunner_sc wrote: Aside from the exaggeration about the 7+ sunkens this was actually quite a good post. Onepost had several good points and followed through with relevant games to illustrate. Like I said some of his examples were a bit extreme but that's no reason to discredit the whole guide. If nothing else this brought up several great games.
Lol @ the "better" players . Yes, yes, god forbid someone who isn't NEARLY as knowledgeable make an effort on an informative post. Yes, shame on them for some misleading examples that make the whole write-up completely worthless to someone your level.
Agreed. If OP is so incredibly wrong, why not suggest some changes and educate not only him, but the people even worse than him that were hoping to learn something from him. If one base carriers is so ridiculous, then tell us that its 2- or 3- or 4-base carriers (I have no idea which it is... which is why I'm reading).
On December 06 2008 10:22 daz wrote: cool post but i saw something and i had to point it out. when your talking about the fantasy vs ggplay game where ggplay continues to make mutalisks vs the tech, its not a failure to adapt, muta are actaully more effective vs terran metal then lurkers or are. Mutaling is actually the best counter against terran metal
Except there were hardly any zerglings in either game. Mutalisks don't do well against equal numbers of goliaths. And lurkers would have fared better than hydralisks, especially for the drops.
yeah i have no idea why he didnt make zerglings but im just trying to say mutalisks are definetly the better choice against metal over lurkers or hydras
From my few experiences against mech terran, mutalisks become less and less effective as the game goes on. In smaller numbers mutalisks beat the goliaths, but once the armies become larger, goliaths usually beat the mutalisks due to their larger range, which allows more goliaths to hit the mutalisks at the same time. Goliaths are also rather effective against zerglings for some godforbidden reason, and so I feel the need to get hydralisks out to deal with mass goliaths.
Lurkers seem to be absolutely useless except to delay the terran until they gets scans.
On December 06 2008 10:39 Kwark wrote: I thought you may be trolling when you advocated one base carriers. But you weren't. You've put a lot of effort into this but some of what you're saying is plain wrong. Sorry.
I know im gonna be a bitch here but i disagree with most of op. He was supposed to cover the fundamentals: =>How to make a game plan =>What to do when unexpected things happen Instead I just see links to special BOs and counters from progamers. Obviously those BOs are based on gameplans but here I expected more an analisis on general gameplan and gamestyle than a description of what do progamers do. Sorry to be so critic but theres a lot more on gameplans and strategy that can be more valuable to the improving player. On a side note you could consider puting the vods on spoilers to make your post more readable.
On December 06 2008 13:11 roadrunner_sc wrote: Aside from the exaggeration about the 7+ sunkens this was actually quite a good post. Onepost had several good points and followed through with relevant games to illustrate. Like I said some of his examples were a bit extreme but that's no reason to discredit the whole guide. If nothing else this brought up several great games.
Lol @ the "better" players . Yes, yes, god forbid someone who isn't NEARLY as knowledgeable make an effort on an informative post. Yes, shame on them for some misleading examples that make the whole write-up completely worthless to someone your level.
Agreed. If OP is so incredibly wrong, why not suggest some changes and educate not only him, but the people even worse than him that were hoping to learn something from him. If one base carriers is so ridiculous, then tell us that its 2- or 3- or 4-base carriers (I have no idea which it is... which is why I'm reading).
2-bases carriers is far more common. You usually go on 2-bases carriers on maps which have a natural in the back, like Katrina, because it's easier to defend.
1-base carriers is an anomaly. I included it on purpose, to provoke reactions.
On December 06 2008 21:39 malongo wrote: I know im gonna be a bitch here but i disagree with most of op. He was supposed to cover the fundamentals: =>How to make a game plan =>What to do when unexpected things happen Instead I just see links to special BOs and counters from progamers. Obviously those BOs are based on gameplans but here I expected more an analisis on general gameplan and gamestyle than a description of what do progamers do. Sorry to be so critic but theres a lot more on gameplans and strategy that can be more valuable to the improving player. On a side note you could consider puting the vods on spoilers to make your post more readable.
Actually, I delivered exactly what I said I would. The accent of this guide isn't what to do but how to think. As I mentioned first thing in the article, there's already a lot of the former type, and this guide does not dispense from reading them.
How to make a game plan ??? Flash vs jeadong in Troy was a 3 hatch instead of a 2 hatch mutalisk build. you put up bad example as evidence to support your claim.
To answer your question, I am quoting Coach Daniel Lee in one of his commentaries "players like Upmagic come up with an innovated build that has back up plans once what it aimed for have failed, the build accounts for different scenarios based on what the other player can do to adapt to that innovated build"
Look, it is not as simple as you made it seem. in "keep it simple section" The fact is that the Vods or Replays we watch only demonstrate one scenario the entire game plan prepared by the players.
These strategies aim for different things, like the ones that you mention are all in timing attack builds if it fails the game is lost. Other strategies aimed for giving a player an econ advantage, or force an error, or make the other player play in their uncomfortable zone (example:making oversky play poor zerg to avoid his strong macro. or put boxer into a macro base game by limiting all other options) Therefore, to prepare a game has to take in account of who you are playing, and what your own strength lies, "know your enemy and know yourself, you will win 100% of the battles" - Sun-Tzu
What to do when unexpected things happen??? Theory is different from practice, like Coach Daniel Lee said in one of his commentaries that "progamers can practice and prepare a building order for a given match over a week, but once the match starts, and the other guy does something totally unexpected, an entire week of work went to waste and he has to adapt on the spot or lose"
I do not agree you have answered the question "what to do when unexpected things happen" completely. your answers are the following "Switch tech", "try something new", "don't give up", Out of these three answers, "switch tech", "don't give up" are addressing the question. "try something new" only partly address the question, because it is done on the next game instead of the game when the unexpected thing is happening.
And finally I want to add another dimension in your answers. "Map Hack" this doesn't directly address to your question "what to do when unexpected things happen?" instead it addresses "how do you prevent unexpected things from happening?" which is relevant to your question.
My answer is turn your "map hack" on, if you are able to see and know everything the other guy is doing, then nothing will be unexpected. This is easy to say and hard to do. One must take the map and the player into consideration. For example, if the opponent is boxer, everybody knows boxer likes cheese with all in, so people study the maps for cheese proxy spots, and scout early, and scout all those spots, make everything boxer do transparent by scarifying minding time early. Of course boxer also knows what you are thinking in the same time, and he will make it hard for you to catch him.
I do agree with your first claim, without mechanic(macro, multitasking) strategy alone will not matter.
^keep bo simple was part of coming up with a game plan i think, not dealing with unexpected. Looks like you raise some valid points though. Bellow are my impressions.
Looks like a nice effort, but I got nothing from it. But I suppose I'm hardly the intended audience, as I already know a lot about the game. I can see where malongo is coming from, in that a guide that rather showed the specifics of how to come up with a good game plan and how to deal with the unexpected would be more valuable to the improving player. Also the 'goal' of the guide was tacked on at the end -- to convince that strategy and innovation made a huge difference between players with similar mechanics and that it may overcome mechanical deficits. Don't think anyone will argue with that despite the vague 'huge'. Overall some good commonsense advice but mostly presented so simply as to not be helpful, e.g., 'offense is the best defense'.
On December 06 2008 21:39 malongo wrote: I know im gonna be a bitch here but i disagree with most of op. He was supposed to cover the fundamentals: =>How to make a game plan =>What to do when unexpected things happen Instead I just see links to special BOs and counters from progamers. Obviously those BOs are based on gameplans but here I expected more an analisis on general gameplan and gamestyle than a description of what do progamers do. Sorry to be so critic but theres a lot more on gameplans and strategy that can be more valuable to the improving player. On a side note you could consider puting the vods on spoilers to make your post more readable.
Actually, I delivered exactly what I said I would. The accent of this guide isn't what to do but how to think. As I mentioned first thing in the article, there's already a lot of the former type, and this guide does not dispense from reading them.
You should have re-phase your questions to
"how to think while developing a game plan" "how to think while unexpected things happened in a game"
But your answers is based on your own opinion, you are really answering the question "What I think while developing a game plan"
In your "No you don't!!!" section. You are describing how to counter 2 hatch mutaslisk and how to counter Bisu build with Vods as example. your goal is to validate your point "a) Charge and strike the mage down" is a better choice than "b) Run for cover and brace yourself"
my counter to you: This is merely your opinion, this is not how others should think.
my reason for the above statement: each player has their strength and weakness, they should play to their strength, and explore the other player's weakness.
My evidence for my reasoning: Savior vs Flash GomTv season 1, Blue strom, savior 2 hatched muta --> gaurdian, killed flash expo and Flash's strong defend came out on top at the end, hence, effectively demonstrated "b) Run for cover and brace yourself" works as well as "a)charge and strike the mage down" http://www.gomtv.net/videos/27
P.S. I am not aiming to put you down, I am trying to have a meaningful debate here as evidence on my efforts in my posts
On December 07 2008 05:18 rei wrote: How to make a game plan ??? Flash vs jeadong in Troy was a 3 hatch instead of a 2 hatch mutalisk build. you put up bad example as evidence to support your claim.
Does the third hatchery count if it's not built at a mineral spot? My understanding of the 3-hatch mutalisk build is that you build a third base, which gives you the volumes and economical advantage later on.
According to Idra:
3rd hatch should always be at another gas expo the speedlings are optional, although there is some risk of a mmf rush breaking you before mutas are out if you dont get them guardians are the best followup, lurker transitions generally blow unless your mutas do a ton of damage, in which case hive would win just as well.
dont overdo it early on, if his turrets arent up when you get there knock yourself out, but dont force. it its more important to keep mutas alive. 99% of terrans forget they need to keep adding turrets, once you accumulate 11+ mutas you can just go around laughing as his 4 turrets try to kill a muta before they all die.
if you have minerals building up, take more expos or make more lings. taking more expos is better unless you think hes gonna be able to attack before guardians (most wont, best way to respond is to turtle till you have irad).
it seems obvious but the most important thing is to actually have good muta micro. there are no foreigners who can fight with muta vs mm competently. practice hold position micro and how to dance around a pack of mm (in the open, no cliffs) and pick off strays. if you cant do that, learn how or dont go 2 hat.
To answer your question, I am quoting Coach Daniel Lee in one of his commentaries "players like Upmagic come up with an innovated build that has back up plans once what it aimed for have failed, the build accounts for different scenarios based on what the other player can do to adapt to that innovated build"
Look, it is not as simple as you made it seem. in "keep it simple section" The fact is that the Vods or Replays we watch only demonstrate one scenario the entire game plan prepared by the players.
I wrote a short guide, not an encyclopedia. I won't deal with endless possible variations in a "keep it simple" guide.
Besides, even programers sometimes dispense with a fallback strategy. 4-pool is a good example of that; it works or it doesn't and gg.
These strategies aim for different things, like the ones that you mention are all in timing attack builds if it fails the game is lost. Other strategies aimed for giving a player an econ advantage, or force an error, or make the other player play in their uncomfortable zone (example:making oversky play poor zerg to avoid his strong macro. or put boxer into a macro base game by limiting all other options) Therefore, to prepare a game has to take in account of who you are playing, and what your own strength lies, "know your enemy and know yourself, you will win 100% of the battles" - Sun-Tzu
This sort of things is already amply covered by other strategy guides.
Besides, my guide does cover the "know your enemy" part, only not as explicitly or in depth.
What to do when unexpected things happen??? Theory is different from practice, like Coach Daniel Lee said in one of his commentaries that "progamers can practice and prepare a building order for a given match over a week, but once the match starts, and the other guy does something totally unexpected, an entire week of work went to waste and he has to adapt on the spot or lose"
I do not agree you have answered the question "what to do when unexpected things happen" completely. your answers are the following "Switch tech", "try something new", "don't give up", Out of these three answers, "switch tech", "don't give up" are addressing the question. "try something new" only partly address the question, because it is done on the next game instead of the game when the unexpected thing is happening.
That question cannot be answered completely. Usually, when things go unexpected, you go on the defensive and buy time to come up with something else. Improvise. There isn't much else that can be said about it, because the unexpected is always... unexpected.
The "try something new" part rather addressed a recurrent pattern of losing slowly but surely that I observed in players of every rank, and that had already be introduced in the "No you don't!" section. It does not deal with the unexpected, quite the contrary; it's about countering something that you expect beforehand.
And finally I want to add another dimension in your answers. "Map Hack" this doesn't directly address to your question "what to do when unexpected things happen?" instead it addresses "how do you prevent unexpected things from happening?" which is relevant to your question.
My answer is turn your "map hack" on, if you are able to see and know everything the other guy is doing, then nothing will be unexpected. This is easy to say and hard to do. One must take the map and the player into consideration. For example, if the opponent is boxer, everybody knows boxer likes cheese with all in, so people study the maps for cheese proxy spots, and scout early, and scout all those spots, make everything boxer do transparent by scarifying minding time early. Of course boxer also knows what you are thinking in the same time, and he will make it hard for you to catch him.
I understand the accent you wish I had put. I'm saving it for the next guide.
I do agree with your first claim, without mechanic(macro, multitasking) strategy alone will not matter.
@rei: That it is an opinion piece is implied, no matter how authoritative. However, you're unlikely to convince anyone if you tone your own advice down as you suggest; it would sound as if you're not genuinely convinced of what you're talking about.
EPT
