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[G] Keep-it-Simple Strategy Guide

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-07 03:22:43
December 05 2008 20:26 GMT
#1
While most strategy guides focus on build orders and specific scenarios, this one shall instead cover the fundamentals:

=>How to make a game plan
=>What to do when unexpected things happen

The focus is on how to think instead of what to do. It presupposes only shallow understanding of the game, yet I write it such that it can also benefit high-ranked players. Tips are accompanied by progamer-class examples.

Edit: The article has been somewhat improved to address misunderstandings. Also, a couple inaccuracies were fixed; thanks to those who pointed them out.

Macro does matter

This is so important that I shall mention it first.

The most commonly given advice on the Strategy forum by far is: "Improve your macro." While not always the cause of defeat, it is always pertinent, therefore I state it here, surely to the satisfaction of many that are tired of repeating it. Really, don't waste too much time improving your strategy if your macro is deficient; improve your macro first. Strategy rarely makes the difference if one cannot cope. Sad but true.

"No you don't!!!"

Suppose we're roleplaying. You're a fighter facing a mage about to cast a fireball. What do you do?

a) Charge and strike the mage down
b) Run for cover and brace yourself

The good answer is obviously a), yet in Starcraft we tend to instead choose b), especially facing fearsome builds like 3-hatch mutas. Here's a notable example:

2008/02/14 GomTV MSL S4 Ro8 Group C Jaedong vs Flash Set 2 on Blue Storm


+ Show Spoiler +
Flash braces himself preparing for the inevitable while Jaedong takes the whole map. Result: one-sided massacre.


So what is the best counter to that build? When these two meet again, Flash has the answer: the firebat push. Some will object that firebats don't fare well against mutalisks, but that's irrelevant, as the following game shows:

2008/02/15 Bacchus OSL 2008 Ro8 Week 1 Group A Jaedong vs Flash Set 1 on Troy

+ Show Spoiler +
Flash has every reason to expect that Jaedong would once again pick his favourite build, and that he would have become complacent enough to neglect his defense. He just rushes with marines and medics, then pumps out several firebats. Some mutalisks come out but too little too late. gg.

This is why nowadays Zerg players build up to 7-8 sunken colonies at their natural, whenever they feel some pressure, instead of just 2-3.


Similarly, what is the best counter to the Bisu build? You guessed it, the hydralisk push:

2008/01/23 Bacchus OSL 2008 Ro16 Week 2-1 Group C Bisu vs July on Blue Storm

+ Show Spoiler +
This is indeed the infamous game that July wins by decision because Bisu's connection dropped. Still, July had clearly won.


The weakness of any tech build, especially two-bases ones, is that they are very vulnerable to early game pushes. If you expect your opponent to go that way, consider charging instead of defending!

Unfortunately, this doesn't always work; the map, for example, may not allow it. Here's a well-known example ending in spectacular failure:

2008/06/01 Razer TSL 2008 Finals Draco vs JianFei Set 5

+ Show Spoiler +
Don't try forcing your way up a ramp that way. It doesn't work.


so you have to use your judgement in those matters. Yet bracing yourself for enemy harrass remains only second-best; offense is the best defense.

That won't work? Switch tech

Few would argue nowadays that mechanics don't make the difference in Starcraft. To rise among the best, players have to train themselves for thousands of hours until they become macro machines. They can become so strong that even if one outsmarts them, they outmacro their opponent and win nonetheless.

Yet this comes at an expense: the more one practices mechanics, the more difficult it becomes to deviate from practiced scenarios. That may lead even progamers to persist in situations when it is clear that they should change their game plan, as these two games illustrate:

2008/10/17 Incruit OSL 2008 Ro4 Group A GGPlay vs Fantasy Set 1 on Plasma


+ Show Spoiler +
GGPlay opens 2-hatch mutas, planning to go for the kill quickly, but Fantasy wisely makes plenty of goliaths and turrets to counter these. He should then save his mutalisks for harrass and scouting, and instead defend, expand, tech to lurkers and cracklings. You don't send mutalisks to attack goliaths, right? Wait, he does, and obviously that fails; the mutalisks melt. gg.


2008/10/17 Incruit OSL 2008 Ro4 Group A GGPlay vs Fantasy Set 2 on Medusa


+ Show Spoiler +
While this game is famous for the praise that Fantasy received for his play [!?], I shall instead focus on GGPlay's. He opens with hydralisks, then proceeds to add mutalisks, planning once again to end the game quickly. But then he sees the valkyries. And the goliaths, again. He sure knows that sending mutalisks against the best anti-air that the Terran arsenal has to offer isn't effective; the outcome will be the same as in the previous game. He also knows that Fantasy's valkyries were hunting down his overlords, that he won't break his opponent with hydralisks alone, that his strategy will fall short. The situation commands to relent, switch to lurkers, cracklings, defilers. But he stubbornly chooses simplification anyway, against the odds, and loses. Again.


The above underlines the virtues of patience and adapting to the opponent's play. In those situation, one has to take a deep breath and change plans. You might think that it's no longer possible, but that's irrelevant; you have to try, otherwise you're dead anyway. Don't suicide your units by going all out against the odds.

Build orders: keep it simple

As I stated before, this guide isn't about providing build orders. Yet we shall briefly discuss what makes a build order viable.

Let's enumerate a few successful build orders:

=>2/3-hatch mutas
=>3-gate +1 speed zealots
=>speed zealots and archons
=>1-base carriers
=>2-fact vulture push
=>1-base reaver+shuttle

These builds have something in common: they name the very thing that they aim to produce. The key to devising at least half-decent builds is to focus on something simple but worthwhile and make it happen as soon as possible. In other words, build only:

=>The absolutely required tech buildings
=>The bare minimum defense to hold until the goal is achieved

Everything else is pork! Low-ranked players often lose trying to produce everything at once without clear focus, and lose to even a late push while hardly having any units. Really, forget about researching three techs and four upgrades at once, forget about making a third base (or even a second, if you don't need it) thinking it would otherwise hurt your economy later on, forget about pumping out units you don't need or static defenses beyond the strict minimum. Do whatever you can to get your shit out ASAP!!!!

For example, some think that one-base tech is usually not viable. But in many cases delaying the expansion to get the tech sooner makes all the difference:

2008/11/06 ClubDay Online MSL 2008 Ro8 Group D Bisu vs FireBatHero Set 1 on Medusa

+ Show Spoiler +
Bisu goes 1-base reavers+shuttle and races to drops before his opponent builds enough turrets. FBH gets 0wN3d. gg. If Bisu had delayed his tech to instead expand, worrying about his economy, it wouldn't have worked nearly as well.


Should you want more examples, just watch games from help threads [H] in the Strategy forum. Haphazard, inefficient builds are arguably the prime cause of defeat for D-rank players.

Doomed to failure? Try something new

Remember Katrina? I'm sure veteran Terran players remember that map all too well, because it was considered imbalanced in favor of Protoss in TvP; the Protoss would just go carriers 100% of the time and exploit the map's cliffs to decimate goliaths with gosu micro.

Just as against 2/3-hatch mutas or the Bisu build (see above), players long chose the conservative, lose-slowly-but-surely approach of making tons of goliaths and lasting as long as they could to save face. Then one progamer notably attempted something different:

2008/02/12 GomTV MSL S4 Ro8 Group B JangBi vs UpMagic Set 2 on Katrina

[spoiler]UpMagic makes cloaked wraiths instead of going pure goliaths. Jangbi gets caught his pants down moving his carriers around the map with no observers!

In the end, UpMagic loses; it is difficult to capitalize on your gains with wraiths. But at least give him credit for having tried something instead of opting for the sure loss.[/spoiler]

Whenever a build is too successful for too long, players executing it become complacent and neglect crucial things. Try to exploit these weaknesses.

Your attempt may fail, but that doesn't diminish your merit. Some might find inspiration into Grand Admiral Thrawn's word from the Star Wars novel The Last Command by Timothy Zahn:
[spoiler]Luke Skywalker has just escaped Imperial capture, eluding Star Destroyer's Chimaera tractor beam by flying his X-Wing out of a detonating freighter. Grand Admiral Thrawn, who had the previous tractor beam operator summarily executed for his ineptitude, once again walks to the starboard seeking an explanation for his successor's failure.

Thrawn led the way to the aft stairway and descended to the starboard crew pit. He walked past the crewers at their consoles, past the officers standing stiffly behind them, and came to a halt at the control station for the starboard tractor beam. "Your name," he said quietly to the young man standing at rigid attention there.

"Ensign Mithel," the other said, his face pale but composed. The expression of a man facing his death.

"Tell me what happened, Ensign."

Mithel swallowed. "Sir, I had just established a positive lock on the freighter when it broke up into a cluster of trac-reflecting particles. The targeting system tried to lock on all of them at once and went into a loop snarl."

"And what did you do?"

"I--sir, I knew that if I waited for the particles to dissipate normally, the target starfighter would be out of range. So I tried to dissipate them myself by shifting the tractor beam into sheer-plane mode."

"It didn't work."

A quiet sigh slipped through Mithel's lips. "No, sir. The target-lock system couldn't handle it. It froze up completely."

"Yes." Thrawn cocked his head slightly. "You've had a few moments now to consider your actions, Ensign. Can you think of anything you should have done instead?"

The young man's lips twitched. "No, sir. I'm sorry, but I can't. I don't remember anything in the manual that covers this kind of situation."

Thrawn nodded. "Correct," he agreed. "There isn't anything. Several methods have been suggested over the past few decades for counteracting the covert shroud gambit, none of which has ever been made practical. Yours was one of the most innovative attempts, particularly given how little time you had to come up with it. The fact that it failed does not in any way diminish that."

A look of cautious disbelief was starting to edge into Mithel's face. "Sir?"

"The Empire needs quick and creative minds," Thrawn said. "You're hereby promoted to Lieutenant... and your first assignment is to find a way to break a covert shroud. After their success here, the Rebellion may try the gambit again."

"Yes, sir," Mithel breathed, the color starting to come back into his face. "I--thank you sir."

"Congratulations, Lieutenant Mithel." Thrawn nodded to him, then turned to Pellaeon. "The bridge is yours, Captain. Resume your scheduled flight. I'll be in the command room if you need me."[/spoiler]

Don't give up just yet!

To word it differently: Don't leave the game while you still have units. Really. At the very least, consider making one last push; you never know, it might work.

Another option is to defend and cope with the opponent's attacks. Buy time. You might just be able to turn the game around.

Here's a short list of famous comebacks:

2007/06/24 GomTV MSL S2 Ro8 Group B Savior vs FirebatHero Set 1 on Python


[spoiler]After a protracted fight, Savior succeeds in breaking into FBH's main. You'd think this is over, but not FBH; he instead relocates his buildings to an expansion and entrenches there, microing like a god. He doesn't stand a chance, does he? He's just making the game last longer... Wait, is that possible? Savior runs out of mineral!!! FBH secures the very last mineral spot on the map!!! FBH WINS!!!!!

Tell me with a straight face that you saw it coming the first time you watched this game.[/spoiler]

2003/08/15 MyCube OSL 2003 Ro16 Group C Game 3 Boxer vs Joyo on Paradoxxx

[spoiler]Boxer drops into Joyo's base but loses all his goliaths to psionic storms, then carriers with dragoons and arbiters wreak havok to his base. Expect him to resign any moment now... Wait, it seems he wants to play to the end, after all. He persists at fighting a losing game until... Joyo runs out of mineral!!! Boxer denies him the last mineral spot that he could secure!!! Unbelieveable, BOXER WINS!!!!![/spoiler]

2008.08.17 WCG Korea 2008 3rd Place Match Much vs Luxury Set 1 on Andromeda

[spoiler]By midgame Luxury had secured map dominance, which in PvZ spells doom on the Protoss player. But Much doesn't concede. Watch him sweat like a pig desperately struggling to turn the game around, withstanding endless waves of Zerg units, until...

... he loses. Admit it, I had you big time.

Still, who would have thought that Much could even last that long? It's the kind of games that makes us push back our limits even when we lose them, so they're worth playing to the end.[/spoiler]

Conceding too early is the lamest way to lose. Even if you think this is over, try something desperate. Whether it works or not, it's worth it.

Conclusion

My goal was to convince you that, between players with comparable mechanics, strategy and innovation can make a huge difference; in fact, it may even overcome a moderate deficit in mechanics. If I succeeded in that, I didn't waste my time.

If you're looking for more games and advice, I recommend watching the games from the Spirit Tournament, commented by Artosis and ex-coach Dan. To repeat the latter's recurrent advice:

=>"Master the Basics!"
=>"Read Sun-Tzu's Art of War!"
=>"Know Yourself and Know your Enemy!"
=>"Be Like a Ninja!"
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
Aesop
Profile Joined October 2007
Hungary11290 Posts
December 05 2008 20:33 GMT
#2
Quite enlightening post and with a good amount of research done, thank you.
ModeratorNon veritas sed auctoritas facit legem. | Liquipedia: Don't ask me, I'm retired.
vAltyR
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States581 Posts
December 05 2008 20:54 GMT
#3
one thing i wish i could do better (and hope progamers do) is to stay one step ahead of the enemy. As cliche as it is, it could be very useful.

as an example/demonstration: In a recent PvT Help thread, I suggest (jokingly, before anyone comments on my noobishness ) corsair/ht mixed with the usual protoss ground force to combat the terran push. The reasoning behind that was the stargate and fleet beacon would tip off the terran that you were going carriers, so he would mass goliaths. Then you build high templars to counter the inevitable mass goliaths, and corsairs with disruption web to help against the tanks. The point is to get him to waste money massing goliaths instead of more tanks. Also, if he doesn't scout it or doesn't switch to goliaths, you can easily tech switch to carriers since you already have the tech required for them. Arbiters are just a tribunal away as well.

The point of this is that by thinking ahead, you can force your opponent to play into your hands by countering his counter to what he thinks you're going to do. Anticipating your opponent's response and preparing for it.

Does this make sense?
내 호버크라프트는 장어로 가득 차 있어요
bp1696
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States288 Posts
December 05 2008 20:59 GMT
#4
Nice, entertaining read. Thanks.
Sleep is for the fishes
Final_Judicator
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany85 Posts
December 05 2008 21:00 GMT
#5
Quality post indeed.
Tanks a lot for the VODs to match your points.

Regards,

Judicator
Racenilatr
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States2756 Posts
December 05 2008 21:00 GMT
#6
oho very nice!
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
December 05 2008 21:33 GMT
#7
On December 06 2008 05:54 vAltyR wrote:
as an example/demonstration: In a recent PvT Help thread, I suggest (jokingly, before anyone comments on my noobishness ) corsair/ht mixed with the usual protoss ground force to combat the terran push. The reasoning behind that was the stargate and fleet beacon would tip off the terran that you were going carriers, so he would mass goliaths. Then you build high templars to counter the inevitable mass goliaths, and corsairs with disruption web to help against the tanks. The point is to get him to waste money massing goliaths instead of more tanks. Also, if he doesn't scout it or doesn't switch to goliaths, you can easily tech switch to carriers since you already have the tech required for them. Arbiters are just a tribunal away as well.

If it does work, that's resources well spent.

The risk however is that the Terran realizes soon enough that he's being conned.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
Hugo(Sphere)
Profile Joined July 2008
United States44 Posts
December 05 2008 21:37 GMT
#8
Great post and insight
Archaic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States4024 Posts
December 05 2008 21:48 GMT
#9
Great post, and great read. Hopefully you were sarcastic about most zergs building 7-8 sunkens at their natural though.
uT)Drebin
Profile Joined November 2008
United States42 Posts
December 05 2008 22:37 GMT
#10
intresting that you said "be like a ninja"
my mentor with something completely unrelated to starcraft told me the same thing. That applies to life in general. Very good post, and great read.
One who never quits can never be defeated.
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-05 23:00:14
December 05 2008 22:59 GMT
#11
On December 06 2008 06:48 Archaic wrote:
Great post, and great read. Hopefully you were sarcastic about most zergs building 7-8 sunkens at their natural though.

2008/06/13 EVER OSL 2008 Ro8 Week 1 Group A Flash vs Luxury Set 1 on Troy


Forward to 11:00.

I see that in amateur play as well.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
yasai90
Profile Joined December 2008
United States1 Post
December 05 2008 23:03 GMT
#12
intersting
o_O
AngelOfDeath
Profile Joined October 2008
United States23 Posts
December 05 2008 23:38 GMT
#13
aha, but will he counter your counter to his counter.....wait wait wait, i've lost count, i need a counter. JK
hide.X
Profile Joined March 2006
Australia105 Posts
December 06 2008 00:54 GMT
#14
Sorry but I can't ignore the 7-8 sunken thing so I'm going to talk about sunkens now.

Zerg don't just go 7-8 sunks because they're scared. It's in response to what they see terran doing. When you go 2 hatch you really can't afford sunkens, and terran moves out at that early timing so that zerg is forced to build sunkens. It's zerg's job to try to get away with as few sunkens as possible, which in jaedong's situation appeared to be 2 or 3 sunks + his lings, however if he had seen the firebats earlier he would have built a 3rd and maybe 4th sunken earlier, but obviously flash planned for the bats to surprise him. Firebat rushing is not a direct counter to 2 hatch muta. There aren't really direct counters in starcraft. If zerg goes 2 hatch and builds 7-8 sunkens (in the first 6-7 minutes of the game) he's going to lose.

With 3 hatch builds against terran it's different. You can get 7-8 sunkens if you want but less is always better, so for example zerg gets 1 sunken early on to be safe from random marine attacks and it also kills scouting scv's, and then another 2 colonies if he moves out with a small mnm force at around the time when spire is morphing, and then you add more depending on how big his army is and how well timed his attack is when he moves out before lurkers are morphed. But really every sunken makes a difference. 1 sunken means you can get your 3rd gas expo while spire is morphing because you will have enough minerals to get your expo hatch and 11 mutas, which means mid game zerg will have gas for like 20+ lurkers. 3 sunkens means your 3rd will be a little slower because now you have only enough minerals to make 11 mutas so you need to waita bit, and so you will have less lurkers. 5,6,7 sunkens means they probably did a 1 base build so you need mutas to make him go back home, and you will have less lurkers again because you need 200 minerals for lurker tech before you can get the hatchery. If zerg gets 7-8 for no reason then zerg will lose.

In that Flash vs Luxury game, I jumped to 11 minutes and saw he had a million sunkens and was morphing guardians, which means the sunkens were only there to delay his army because he was getting guards. Zerg sometimes has to get a million sunkens like that to stall terran when zerg's hive tech isn't ready because either (a) he fucked up and his army died, or (b) he tried to tech to hive really quickly without lurkers, or tried to tech to ultras or guardians without defilers, and terran knows about it and wants to exploit the timing.

and while I'm at it, turrets are the same. If terran gets 20 turrets, zerg will save his mutas and attack with muta lurker ling and win.

protoss is different though. It doesn't matter if you get a few too many cannons (to a certain degree. If you get 10 cannons to defend against nothing then obviously the game will turn out like Chill's game in the sc2gg showmatch.)
You cannot just 1a2a3a your way into the vajayjay. -- GrandInquisitor
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
December 06 2008 00:58 GMT
#15
lovely post!
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
December 06 2008 01:21 GMT
#16
On December 06 2008 09:54 hide.X wrote:
Sorry but I can't ignore the 7-8 sunken thing so I'm going to talk about sunkens now.

Zerg don't just go 7-8 sunks because they're scared. It's in response to what they see terran doing. When you go 2 hatch you really can't afford sunkens, and terran moves out at that early timing so that zerg is forced to build sunkens. It's zerg's job to try to get away with as few sunkens as possible, which in jaedong's situation appeared to be 2 or 3 sunks + his lings, however if he had seen the firebats earlier he would have built a 3rd and maybe 4th sunken earlier, but obviously flash planned for the bats to surprise him. Firebat rushing is not a direct counter to 2 hatch muta. There aren't really direct counters in starcraft. If zerg goes 2 hatch and builds 7-8 sunkens (in the first 6-7 minutes of the game) he's going to lose.

In Flash vs Jaedong, Flash knew in advance how Jaedong would play. He had every reason to expect that there would be too few sunkens and that they would be late.

True enough, if you build more sunkens than necessary, you're toast. Yet it has become standard for the Terran player to pressure and contain the Zerg in his base with marines and medics, hence the high sunken count.

With 3 hatch builds against terran it's different. You can get 7-8 sunkens if you want but less is always better, so for example zerg gets 1 sunken early on to be safe from random marine attacks and it also kills scouting scv's, and then another 2 colonies if he moves out with a small mnm force at around the time when spire is morphing, and then you add more depending on how big his army is and how well timed his attack is when he moves out before lurkers are morphed. But really every sunken makes a difference. 1 sunken means you can get your 3rd gas expo while spire is morphing because you will have enough minerals to get your expo hatch and 11 mutas, which means mid game zerg will have gas for like 20+ lurkers. 3 sunkens means your 3rd will be a little slower because now you have only enough minerals to make 11 mutas so you need to waita bit, and so you will have less lurkers. 5,6,7 sunkens means they probably did a 1 base build so you need mutas to make him go back home, and you will have less lurkers again because you need 200 minerals for lurker tech before you can get the hatchery. If zerg gets 7-8 for no reason then zerg will lose.

True enough. Don't build them for no reason. If the Terran does not pressure, stick to three.

In that Flash vs Luxury game, I jumped to 11 minutes and saw he had a million sunkens and was morphing guardians, which means the sunkens were only there to delay his army because he was getting guards. Zerg sometimes has to get a million sunkens like that to stall terran when zerg's hive tech isn't ready because either (a) he fucked up and his army died, or (b) he tried to tech to hive really quickly without lurkers, or tried to tech to ultras or guardians without defilers, and terran knows about it and wants to exploit the timing.

Luxury doesn't stop building sunkens, even after the first three; he builds his fourth and fifth at around 7:00, long before Flash shows up. He knows his opponent, he knows in advance that Flash is planning some sort of push. That's why there are so many up when Flash arrives. I suggest you watch the game from the beginning instead of forwarding at 11:00.

and while I'm at it, turrets are the same. If terran gets 20 turrets, zerg will save his mutas and attack with muta lurker ling and win.

protoss is different though. It doesn't matter if you get a few too many cannons (to a certain degree. If you get 10 cannons to defend against nothing then obviously the game will turn out like Chill's game in the sc2gg showmatch.)

Cannons are less expensive but the same logic applies: build barely enough to keep your opponent at bay.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
daz
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Canada643 Posts
December 06 2008 01:22 GMT
#17
cool post but i saw something and i had to point it out. when your talking about the fantasy vs ggplay game where ggplay continues to make mutalisks vs the tech, its not a failure to adapt, muta are actaully more effective vs terran metal then lurkers or are. Mutaling is actually the best counter against terran metal
Some eat to remember, some smash to forget. 2009msl.com
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
December 06 2008 01:34 GMT
#18
On December 06 2008 10:22 daz wrote:
cool post but i saw something and i had to point it out. when your talking about the fantasy vs ggplay game where ggplay continues to make mutalisks vs the tech, its not a failure to adapt, muta are actaully more effective vs terran metal then lurkers or are. Mutaling is actually the best counter against terran metal

Except there were hardly any zerglings in either game. Mutalisks don't do well against equal numbers of goliaths. And lurkers would have fared better than hydralisks, especially for the drops.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
December 06 2008 01:36 GMT
#19
On December 06 2008 07:59 onepost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2008 06:48 Archaic wrote:
Great post, and great read. Hopefully you were sarcastic about most zergs building 7-8 sunkens at their natural though.

2008/06/13 EVER OSL 2008 Ro8 Week 1 Group A Flash vs Luxury Set 1 on Troy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1snERPZkPeI

Forward to 11:00.

I see that in amateur play as well.


If you're trying to show that 7-8 sunks is typical, you need more and better examples than that. That was an atypical game in which Luxury was reviving a build that hadn't seen much, if any, use in a few years.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42539 Posts
December 06 2008 01:39 GMT
#20
I thought you may be trolling when you advocated one base carriers. But you weren't. You've put a lot of effort into this but some of what you're saying is plain wrong. Sorry.
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