I just watched the match between best and nal_keke, and thought that it was a fun looking build to do, but i don't know if it's really viable. Nal_keke opened with a 3 hatch lair build, and laid down the spire and den fairly close in timing, expanded twice, and again to his mineral only. He used a few lurkers, but almost pure hydras the entire game, which he used to keep best from expanding much. I feel that this build may not work often as high templars can shred masses of hydras, although that's what best did, he stormed huge amounts of hydras, but it seemed almost like it didn't matter. What i loved the most about this build is it wasn't a rush or all in build, it was a macro build. He did have 3 evo chambers up, indicating a possible later switch to utra/ling.

Your thoughts on this build. Did Nal_keke play brilliantly?(lol) or did best just play poorly vs this build? A one time build? Heavily map specific?(the mineral only expo) Weak compared compared to a lurker build?

EleanorRIgby

Canada3923 Posts

October 29 2008 06:44 GMT

i think best waited to long to push out and keke got greedy mid game and best was turtling and it really paid off for him, although best's pushes almost wiped keke out at a couple points. More bests failure then kekes build. Good build i think if there going goon heavy and have to wait a longer time befor they can do there mid game push

PobTheCad

Australia893 Posts

October 29 2008 07:06 GMT

i found mass hydras to be too poor vs storm

Tropics

United Kingdom1132 Posts

October 29 2008 07:23 GMT

mass hydra is an incredibly common follow up to 3 hatch spire, but generally unless you can do a lot of damage or he lets you take a lot of expos you're going to have to mix lings or lurkers into your army sooner or later.

sixghost

United States2096 Posts

October 29 2008 07:26 GMT

Check out Gosia's zvp's from the TSL rep thread if you want to see some 5hatch hydra play. Gosia is fantastic at it. You have to be very active in sniping templar before battles, and dodging storm during fights.

If you watch gosia's replays he almost always has a group of 5-7 hydras hidden close to the P's army and tries to keep an ovie near ball to find some openings to go snipe some HTs. The build is amazing at denying the P's 3rd if the 3rd is kinda far away, and those are the kind of maps the build works best on. It tends to have a hard time transitioning to late game though, once the toss army gets near max, you are going to have a really really hard time fighting it off if you arent at ultra yet.

TheFoReveRwaR

United States10657 Posts

October 29 2008 07:28 GMT

Completely viable but risky. It all comes down to how well you micro vs storms to deny protoss his third. If you are successful in the midgame during the critical timing ( you dodge storms well/pick of templars) then you will typically cruise into late game and finish with 4 base 3 gas ultra/ling/hydra. A build that works well if your micro/multitask is better than your opponents and one that fails if it isn't. The reason I would avoid this build is this: all it takes is two or so storms with you not paying attention and the game is tipped into the protoss's favor. You have to be sure to always spread your hydras in the maximum flank radius and be extremely quick at manually selecting clusters of hydras and moving them instantly out of swarm. Constantly looking out for exposed templar is key as well. The spire in this build is simply to make the protoss hopefully waste templars on archons and to force them to waste minerals by cannoning their main.

Ah dante posted at the same time and pretty much said the same thing lol...
Well anyways...there's your answer.

sixghost

United States2096 Posts

October 29 2008 07:45 GMT

On October 29 2008 16:28 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Completely viable but risky. It all comes down to how well you micro vs storms to deny protoss his third. If you are successful in the midgame during the critical timing ( you dodge storms well/pick of templars) then you will typically cruise into late game and finish with 4 base 3 gas ultra/ling/hydra. A build that works well if your micro/multitask is better than your opponents and one that fails if it isn't. The reason I would avoid this build is this: all it takes is two or so storms with you not paying attention and the game is tipped into the protoss's favor. You have to be sure to always spread your hydras in the maximum flank radius and be extremely quick at manually selecting clusters of hydras and moving them instantly out of swarm. Constantly looking out for exposed templar is key as well. The spire in this build is simply to make the protoss hopefully waste templars on archons and to force them to waste minerals by cannoning their main.

Ah dante posted at the same time and pretty much said the same thing lol...
Well anyways...there's your answer.

I personally hate using it because it's so easy to take the lead early on with the build, but its so easy to throw it away later on. If they attack in a timing before ultra and have been protecting their HTs well your going to need to damn good micro to not get steamrolled.

On the plus side, its a very very nice opening vs the normal sair/dt. Sometimes you can even win outright if you can hide an ovie somewhere near his nat. Also a great opening vs sair reaver. 5hatch hydra with upgrades+burrow vs sair/reaver is the most fun thing in starcraft if you ask me. It's one of the best feelings in the game to watch 2 shuttles fly over 12 burrowed hydras in your main then pop up and snipe both them.

Although it tends to have a hard time vs fast +1 speedlots. You generally have to make sunkens+start making hydras earlier to fend it off, and alot of times thats all the P needs to get their 3rd up.

AttackZerg

United States7475 Posts

October 29 2008 12:45 GMT

This thread is pretty stupid.

3 hat lair into 5 hat hydra or hydra/lurker or lurker/ling is the standard ZvP and has been for a long time.

Yes it is viable. Yes the transitions can make it risky. No it isn't new. Every since jaedong did it versus bisu 3 hat lair/spire into 5 hat hydra it has been the most common zerg build. Period.

Every ZvP luxury plays does it.

tKd_

United States2916 Posts

October 29 2008 13:28 GMT

attackzerg is right. this is completely standard. 5 hatch hydra without lair should be the topic of discussion, i do it a lot with lings to fight the first attack.

onihunter

United States515 Posts

October 29 2008 15:24 GMT

#10

Does anyone know the relative timings of the hydra attack for 3, 4, and 5 hatch hydras no lair compared to what tech the protoss has? (like if they have sairs, dts, storm)

GHOSTCLAW

United States17042 Posts

October 29 2008 16:36 GMT

#11

On October 29 2008 21:45 AttackZerg wrote:
This thread is pretty stupid.

3 hat lair into 5 hat hydra or hydra/lurker or lurker/ling is the standard ZvP and has been for a long time.

Yes it is viable. Yes the transitions can make it risky. No it isn't new. Every since jaedong did it versus bisu 3 hat lair/spire into 5 hat hydra it has been the most common zerg build. Period.

Every ZvP luxury plays does it.

not quite true for luxury, but almost.

I believe that Jaedong was attempting to do this against free, but jaedong turtled and teched to hive instead of hydra, and free took "too many expos"

MisterKatosS

France352 Posts

October 29 2008 16:47 GMT

#12

There is nothing incredible in that bo.
Best lost this game because KeKe sniped his first shuttle (with 1 or 2 reaver) with burrowed hydra, without that huge early advantage i doubt keke could have won.

Raithed

China7078 Posts

October 29 2008 18:25 GMT

#13

best is bad vs zerg in general.

United States6173 Posts

October 29 2008 18:39 GMT

#14

If this is the game I'm thinking of, keke could pull off being so greedy at the start because of BeSt's reaver/sair opening, which was effectively nullified. After that, Best missed any timings he may have had, and lost out to keke's retarded macro.

imo, it was a credit to best for lasting that long under the given circumstances.