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They are such powerful units in mid-late. Stasis can paralyze big chunk of zerg armies for a long time, to be surrounded and destroyed later (like in PvT), and cannot be dodged unlike storm.
Cloak can protect HTs and reavers from getting sniped by mutas/hydras, and forces zerg to always have overlords with his forces (extra micro).
Recalling army on zerg main could be very powerful move, since zerg lurkers-sunken defense is usually very hard to break, but arbiters allows to bypass it. And wipe out precious tech structures quickly (since zerg bases are much smaller than terran bases). Zerg also does not have mines to counter recalling.
Are they not used because of fear of scourges? But protoss almost always has some corsairs...
Or price? But protoss easily builds tons of archons and reavers in late game.
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Northern Ireland25694 Posts
Following to find out myself!
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I'd say they are. IMO, pretty much everything apart from Zeal/Drag/HT is underused in the PvZ late game.
A 200 supply Protoss gateway army isn't significantly stronger than a 160 supply one. If the Protoss gateway army can't break through a defensive Lurk/Hyd position, they certainly won't fare better once the Zerg gets defilers and the crackling upgrade.
In games where Protoss has access to a lot of gas (e.g., 4 bases before 16 minutes), there's almost no reason not to get an arbiter. While stasis and cloak can be a bit of a coin flip, a successful recall can win the game. Zergs almost never scout for arbiter production and typically won't have scourges in place.
If you've got an Arbiter and plan to recall your army, I think it's better not to target their main base but instead recall into the other main base they've taken as an expansion. By this point, their main base will be almost mined out, and rebuilding a few tech buildings is less of a problem than losing a nearly fresh expansion. Often, this expansion will also have macro hatcheries, and losing those would hurt the Zerg much more.
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Recall the expansion while dropping 4 DT in the main to snipe the spawning pool/other tech to slow the instant remax of cracklings and delay whatever else. (Spires also die super fast to DT so even a 6 corsair followup to start maiming overlords to deter revenge drops)
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This thread reminds me of my youth, spending time in the countryside, away from the PC, daydreaming about Brood War.
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United States10196 Posts
On August 27 2024 21:59 Kraekkling wrote:
I'd say they are. IMO, pretty much everything apart from Zeal/Drag/HT is underused in the PvZ late game.
A 200 supply Protoss gateway army isn't significantly stronger than a 160 supply one. If the Protoss gateway army can't break through a defensive Lurk/Hyd position, they certainly won't fare better once the Zerg gets defilers and the crackling upgrade.
In games where Protoss has access to a lot of gas (e.g., 4 bases before 16 minutes), there's almost no reason not to get an arbiter. While stasis and cloak can be a bit of a coin flip, a successful recall can win the game. Zergs almost never scout for arbiter production and typically won't have scourges in place.
If you've got an Arbiter and plan to recall your army, I think it's better not to target their main base but instead recall into the other main base they've taken as an expansion. By this point, their main base will be almost mined out, and rebuilding a few tech buildings is less of a problem than losing a nearly fresh expansion. Often, this expansion will also have macro hatcheries, and losing those would hurt the Zerg much more.
This is the exact thing I said in the reddit thread about Arbiters in PvZ a week ago and got absolutely flamed for it.
Protoss has a VERY hard time killing a very solid defensive Zerg. Lurker/spore/sunken makes it too difficult to effectively get through. Add defilers and swarm/plague, and you're never breaking that. So the other options as Protoss is to just expand like crazy yourself, get all the gas, and go pure archon/templar/reaver and control the middle of the map. But that still doesn't solve the kill Zerg part. Arbiters and recall allow you to do so. Once you hit 4/5 gas, Arbiters are opened up as a possibility to deal a devastating blow to Zerg. The other fresh main on multi-player maps is the most ideal, but the main is still good because killing tech means Zerg has to remake everything which can take some time (for example, killing the Hive and Defiler mound means Zerg needs to remake Lair -> Hive again so it's a longer time to get defilers back). Plus, if they built their evo cluster in the main, you can stop them from getting 3/3 on their units.
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Northern Ireland25694 Posts
Arbiters should just double-cloak DTs and all our PvZ woes would be solved!
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On August 28 2024 09:11 WombaT wrote:
Arbiters should just double-cloak DTs and all our PvZ woes would be solved!
Double cloaked DTs should be invincible instead of invisible. Blizzard pls
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Northern Ireland25694 Posts
On August 28 2024 12:50 Kraekkling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2024 09:11 WombaT wrote:
Arbiters should just double-cloak DTs and all our PvZ woes would be solved! Double cloaked DTs should be invincible instead of invisible. Blizzard pls
About half of the Terran units shouldn’t be able to see DTs even if there are detectors. Zerg have the hive mind thing, Protoss have their sexy technology, so one detector revealing and relaying the sneaky boiz makes sense.
Considering they’re never depicted with advanced, linked targeting systems and shit, how in the name of Zeus are marines suddenly able to see the Templar of the Dark variety just because some science vessel probably floating thousands of feet in the air are around?
They should introduce a mechanic where increasingly frantic marines are getting radioed rough coordinates and you have to manually shoot where your best guess is I say!
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They absolutely suck in PvZ.
I was watching a pro on afreeca and he got a massive lead in PvZ and decided to go arbiters, I'm assuming to entertain his viewers and he ended up losing the game. I think he only got a single recall off, and it wasn't very effective. Protoss want their army to be all together when fighting zerg anyways and recall doesn't bring as much units as you would think. Killing some of their tech is nice (like spire/spawning pool) but a shuttle with zealots can do that.
Arbiters cost a lot of gas which is very needed in PvZ. They move really slow for scourge to kill easily.
Protoss doesn't 'always have some corsairs'. And really, you would spend all the money and supply on a fleet of corsairs AND buy arbiters? Where is your army at this point...
As for breaking a zerg with defiler/lurker, you don't even need to break them. They won't get defilers until like 18+ minutes and at that point, the best thing is to probably force the game to go super late game because zerg can't win once it becomes super late game. Protoss can just buy hightemplar/archon and it barely costs any minerals.
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On August 28 2024 13:21 Li_Xin wrote:
They absolutely suck in PvZ.
I was watching a pro on afreeca and he got a massive lead in PvZ and decided to go arbiters, I'm assuming to entertain his viewers and he ended up losing the game. I think he only got a single recall off, and it wasn't very effective. Protoss want their army to be all together when fighting zerg anyways and recall doesn't bring as much units as you would think. Killing some of their tech is nice (like spire/spawning pool) but a shuttle with zealots can do that.
Arbiters cost a lot of gas which is very needed in PvZ. They move really slow for scourge to kill easily.
Protoss doesn't 'always have some corsairs'. And really, you would spend all the money and supply on a fleet of corsairs AND buy arbiters? Where is your army at this point...
As for breaking a zerg with defiler/lurker, you don't even need to break them. They won't get defilers until like 18+ minutes and at that point, the best thing is to probably force the game to go super late game because zerg can't win once it becomes super late game. Protoss can just buy hightemplar/archon and it barely costs any minerals.
Yeah, the biggest problem is that after the first recall, the Zerg will have scourge in place.
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On August 28 2024 13:05 WombaT wrote:
Considering they’re never depicted with advanced, linked targeting systems and shit, how in the name of Zeus are marines suddenly able to see the Templar of the Dark variety just because some science vessel probably floating thousands of feet in the air are around?
Augmented reality vision inside their helmets, obviously.
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PvT recalls work because Terran armies are slow and because Terran is less efficient in fights between small numbers of units. Zerg is the opposite: most recalls will just get eaten by cracklings and maybe a swarm or plague. You might be able to recall into a main and hold the ramp, though. There might also be value in using recall to evacuate high-value units when they're being overrun.
The cloaking field is probably the strongest feature in PvZ. Zerg can always force detection by shoving a dozen overlords at your army, but if they do they'd better win the fight.
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Northern Ireland25694 Posts
On August 28 2024 13:59 Kraekkling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2024 13:05 WombaT wrote:
Considering they’re never depicted with advanced, linked targeting systems and shit, how in the name of Zeus are marines suddenly able to see the Templar of the Dark variety just because some science vessel probably floating thousands of feet in the air are around?
Augmented reality vision inside their helmets, obviously.
They’re never really depicted as having that kind of tech with their stock troops in cutscenes and whatnot.
Hell part of why Terran are so fun is because they have this kind of ramshackle, improvisational space redneck vibe.
Of course I’m just jokingly nitpicking, I think there’s a special place in hell for people who do it earnestly!
Reminded of Incontrol’s epic, epic rant about the zealot that segued into him furiously questioning how people taking drugs makes them shoot a gun faster haha. Ah man, that’s one of those losses that really hurt
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They're on stimulants so they take less time to aim for each shot.
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United States10196 Posts
On August 28 2024 16:47 Severedevil wrote:
PvT recalls work because Terran armies are slow and because Terran is less efficient in fights between small numbers of units. Zerg is the opposite: most recalls will just get eaten by cracklings and maybe a swarm or plague. You might be able to recall into a main and hold the ramp, though. There might also be value in using recall to evacuate high-value units when they're being overrun.
The cloaking field is probably the strongest feature in PvZ. Zerg can always force detection by shoving a dozen overlords at your army, but if they do they'd better win the fight.
Late game a well upgrades protoss army is going to instantly raze whatever zerg base there is. Then, positioning a few archons near the ramp with storms means Zerg should never be able to get up that ramp to save the base.
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I suspect that investing gas into Arbiters and their associated tech (which are not strictly required) may be less reliable than investing gas into additional High Templars with Storm (which have been the backbone of Protoss armies for years).
To be precise, I find it difficult to see a scenario where the gas invested into a Recall play either puts the Protoss at a significant advantage or ends the game outright.
The only scenario I would find Arbiters intimidating is if they somehow came out early, unexpectedly, and avoided direct combat, going for a Recall.
If Arbiters are not especially early, then I suppose Zergs would already have 5+ bases anyways, diminishing the impact of a single Recall. I guess this could depend on the timing of it, though, and the dynamics of map control involved.
If Arbiters are used in direct combat, I would expect Defilers and Lurkers to deny much of the Arbiters' value proposition, as Plague reveals cloak anyways, and burrowed Lurkers are immune to Stasis. Question to Protoss players: would you rather land 2 big Stasis (200 energy) or 3 big Storms (225 energy)?
I am under the impression that Reavers and Storm are more flexible overall, as both Reavers and HTs can be used offensively, defensively, and for harassment throughout all stages of the game. In contrast -- again -- I think Arbiters' only role would be to go for some kind of big Recall play, ideally earlier rather than later in the game.
I suppose can see Arbiters being used as win-more units in, say, a longer game, or for noob-stomping?
@FlaShFTW We should test the idea in a couple of games. Nothing beats theoretical ChatCrafting harder than practical StarCrafting. 
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Netherlands5129 Posts
Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Meta is king, and late game where the situation arises to build them happens so little, it's literally theorycrafting. HT/Archon/DT/DA will often be a better short and long term value.
Scourge is such a hard counter, so IMO Arbiter is a surprise defensive unit at best.
I can see Recall be game changing, but you need to hit so many parameters for that shit. Arbiter PvZ has a high epic factor though (IF it doesn't immediately get killed).
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Norway28689 Posts
Recall is occasionally great, and cloak is actually kind of a pain in the ass. Huge goon templar arbiter army is annoying to fight, you really need to watch every battle and you also end up having to remake overlords when you lose fights. That part is very annoying as zerg. Stasis however is totally meh in pvz.
But they're expensive as hell. There's a place for them against turtling zerg trying to claw back in the game, but honestly - you need to still have your sairs for them to be viable, and if you have sairs, you can get much the same utility - busting a sunken lurker defense - using dweb. (Which is one of the under-utilized abilities in the game).
Another big problem is that an arbiter is a very juicy plague target, as the units tend to be concentrated right underneath it.
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On September 07 2024 02:41 Peeano wrote:
Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Meta is king, and late game where the situation arises to build them happens so little, it's literally theorycrafting. HT/Archon/DT/DA will often be a better short and long term value.
Scourge is such a hard counter, so IMO Arbiter is a surprise defensive unit at best.
I can see Recall be game changing, but you need to hit so many parameters for that shit. Arbiter PvZ has a high epic factor though (IF it doesn't immediately get killed).
I think you need to combo them with corsair to clear the scourge and overlords, making the cloak OP
I see saving some for later instead of stupidly suiciding for 1 or 2 overlords could yield late game benefits
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No, not really no. Arbiters, scouts or carriers are not underused in pvz.
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On August 28 2024 04:04 Nirli wrote:
This thread reminds me of my youth, spending time in the countryside, away from the PC, daydreaming about Brood War.
The good old days, I “recall” them too very well
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I think the idea of arbiters PvZ is that dragoons protect arbiters from scourge. It's just after that there's plague which will also permanently damage the dragoons, and also reveal them. Now if somehow the zerg is missing a key structure like the spire, because they did like 5hatch before gas, adding an arbiter could be a killing blow.
The second thing is zergs usually defend with lurkers on a high ground, fortifying a location near a base, but not directly at it. An arbiter can fly past or around the defenses, and recall.
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EPT
