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Carriers or arbiters

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
SiarX
Profile Joined December 2021
14 Posts
February 23 2023 23:06 GMT
#1
What is generally more effective in PvT?
ThunderJunk
Profile Joined December 2015
United States516 Posts
February 23 2023 23:21 GMT
#2
Corsairs. Disruption web is great, and they make little disk pew pews when they shoot science vessels, moving them backwards a little bit.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
Mutaller
Profile Blog Joined July 2013
United States901 Posts
February 24 2023 16:20 GMT
#3
I think arbiters are going to be more useful in more situations. A single arbiter becomes useful, and benefits the already established ground army. Arbiters can recall which is the ultimate counter play to a terran unsieging and moving their tanks aggressively. Stasis can be used aggressively and defensively. A lot of terrans are going to struggle with the detection of your ground units too, especially if you have multiple arbiters and a large army.

Carriers require a good economy because you need to pump them out and get a critical number. A single carrier is not going to do much for you. The carrier can simply attack move and do well if you are very far ahead, but to be a good carrier player there is actually quite complicated micro for them, while the arbiter is rather simple. If a map has a lot of dead space where goliaths cannot get under the carriers or even hit them, carriers will be a good move. On large dead space maps the terran will be forced to make wraiths, which makes toss ground army stronger
"To practice isn't for you to get better now in the present. Practice will never betray you and will always come back for you in the future." -Jaedong
Jumperer
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States1352 Posts
February 24 2023 16:23 GMT
#4
Scout
The leader of the protoss resistance movement. https://www.twitch.tv/jumperer/
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2547 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-24 22:44:02
February 24 2023 22:43 GMT
#5
If scanner doesn't see your fleet beacon then carriers usually win but if you get immediately scouted terran can finish you off before getting critical amount or make million goliaths and believe me, 3/3 ranged golis are nightmare to deal with, you need Stork's control to win vs. it.
sunbeams are never made like me...
Akio
Profile Joined January 2019
Finland1740 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-01 15:58:11
February 26 2023 12:43 GMT
#6
I don’t think it’s a question of which one you build, since you build Arbs in most games anyways to threaten recall, etc.
いてまえ
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2008 Posts
February 26 2023 21:32 GMT
#7
Bnet user level is Stylistic choice.

at pro level is based on maps and somewhat presonal preference.
Latino flavor... disturbed Mind
Operations
Profile Joined February 2012
115 Posts
March 01 2023 07:35 GMT
#8
why not both?
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1296 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-02 22:23:45
March 02 2023 14:48 GMT
#9
"Generally more effective" would be arbiters because of what mutaller wrote; they always strengthen your core-army (constant cloacking) and give you possibly game-deciding tactical options (recall/stasis). That's why they're the general late-game choice in PvT.

Carriers on the other hand can be very effective - "more" effective if you want - if the situation is right or rather: if you create the right situation for them, which generally means that they have to come as a surprise (early on 2 bases or in the lategame with some hidden stargates). Terran doesn't have to be in the dark until the last minute, but you need a window of time to produce enough carriers before Terran realizes what's going on and can counter with enough goliaths/turrets.
As was pointed out above, certain map-features make carriers much more effective, for example a lot of terrain that is impassable for ground-units.

From my experience, carriers might get you some easy wins on lower ranks and might seem "generally effective" there, but they get harder to use once the Terrans get decent at the core-skills (macro/control/scouting+reacting). The higher the rank, the better you have to be at carrier micro and decision-making on where to send them or else bulding them might backfire.
iopq
Profile Joined March 2009
United States601 Posts
March 05 2023 05:43 GMT
#10
Arbiters haven't proven to be cost-effective, once the Terran defends a lot of bases with mines and turrets recall threat is much less relevant, and stasis can be prevented with EMP

Carriers, however, will be cost-effective as long as you keep upgrading them. So in the long term there's no real counter to carriers as long as Terran doesn't surprise you with cloaked wraiths or similar.

I'm just surprised why nobody makes a switch to carriers after arbiter, you already have one stargate and cloaked carriers are pretty good if you can afford them (late late game)
namkraft
Profile Blog Joined December 2021
116 Posts
March 08 2023 01:32 GMT
#11
On February 25 2023 07:43 outscar wrote:
If scanner doesn't see your fleet beacon then carriers usually win but if you get immediately scouted terran can finish you off before getting critical amount or make million goliaths and believe me, 3/3 ranged golis are nightmare to deal with, you need Stork's control to win vs. it.


Storkuuuu plays today!! let see them some dino-carriers !
FB Profile: https://facebook.com/mutaflower
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France2840 Posts
March 08 2023 20:14 GMT
#12
On March 05 2023 14:43 iopq wrote:
Arbiters haven't proven to be cost-effective, once the Terran defends a lot of bases with mines and turrets recall threat is much less relevant, and stasis can be prevented with EMP

Carriers, however, will be cost-effective as long as you keep upgrading them. So in the long term there's no real counter to carriers as long as Terran doesn't surprise you with cloaked wraiths or similar.

I'm just surprised why nobody makes a switch to carriers after arbiter, you already have one stargate and cloaked carriers are pretty good if you can afford them (late late game)


I think the main downside is the (massive) upgrade disadvantage you start with. 0-0 air vs 2-1 or 3-2 mech
Former WCG ref, WGTour.com and Fra-A admin. Current Clan ash admin, TDR NW Team NEU captain and BWCL Head Admin
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway27668 Posts
March 12 2023 06:45 GMT
#13
On March 09 2023 05:14 WGT-Baal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2023 14:43 iopq wrote:
Arbiters haven't proven to be cost-effective, once the Terran defends a lot of bases with mines and turrets recall threat is much less relevant, and stasis can be prevented with EMP

Carriers, however, will be cost-effective as long as you keep upgrading them. So in the long term there's no real counter to carriers as long as Terran doesn't surprise you with cloaked wraiths or similar.

I'm just surprised why nobody makes a switch to carriers after arbiter, you already have one stargate and cloaked carriers are pretty good if you can afford them (late late game)


I think the main downside is the (massive) upgrade disadvantage you start with. 0-0 air vs 2-1 or 3-2 mech


Pretty inexpensive to go for a +1 air attack before you make the switch, tbh, so you'll have +2 by the time your first carriers are ready to fight. If you're considering doing a carrier switch you should do this, anyway.
ModeratorI had to change my quote to seem more serious because I'm trying to use myself in an academic text :(
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden970 Posts
March 13 2023 19:18 GMT
#14
On March 12 2023 15:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2023 05:14 WGT-Baal wrote:
On March 05 2023 14:43 iopq wrote:
Arbiters haven't proven to be cost-effective, once the Terran defends a lot of bases with mines and turrets recall threat is much less relevant, and stasis can be prevented with EMP

Carriers, however, will be cost-effective as long as you keep upgrading them. So in the long term there's no real counter to carriers as long as Terran doesn't surprise you with cloaked wraiths or similar.

I'm just surprised why nobody makes a switch to carriers after arbiter, you already have one stargate and cloaked carriers are pretty good if you can afford them (late late game)


I think the main downside is the (massive) upgrade disadvantage you start with. 0-0 air vs 2-1 or 3-2 mech


Pretty inexpensive to go for a +1 air attack before you make the switch, tbh, so you'll have +2 by the time your first carriers are ready to fight. If you're considering doing a carrier switch you should do this, anyway.


A huge tell if core is still spinning after range though. Sure you could buy it anyway as its cheap but still.
-.-
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France2840 Posts
March 15 2023 15:15 GMT
#15
On March 12 2023 15:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2023 05:14 WGT-Baal wrote:
On March 05 2023 14:43 iopq wrote:
Arbiters haven't proven to be cost-effective, once the Terran defends a lot of bases with mines and turrets recall threat is much less relevant, and stasis can be prevented with EMP

Carriers, however, will be cost-effective as long as you keep upgrading them. So in the long term there's no real counter to carriers as long as Terran doesn't surprise you with cloaked wraiths or similar.

I'm just surprised why nobody makes a switch to carriers after arbiter, you already have one stargate and cloaked carriers are pretty good if you can afford them (late late game)


I think the main downside is the (massive) upgrade disadvantage you start with. 0-0 air vs 2-1 or 3-2 mech


Pretty inexpensive to go for a +1 air attack before you make the switch, tbh, so you'll have +2 by the time your first carriers are ready to fight. If you're considering doing a carrier switch you should do this, anyway.


I had not considered it actually lol, I usually go into arbs thehn stay on it for a while then consider the switch but by then several minutes have passed.
It can also trick the T into making anti-carrier moves even though I dont have any and wont have for a while
Former WCG ref, WGTour.com and Fra-A admin. Current Clan ash admin, TDR NW Team NEU captain and BWCL Head Admin
G5
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States2766 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-18 06:21:25
March 18 2023 06:19 GMT
#16
Arbiters are better to stop timing attacks and carriers are better to end the game once you have a bank. Often, you'll see quick arbiter with stasis to stop a 2-1 timing attack, secure more bases, then transition into carriers once you have the bank to trade minerals (interceptors) for gas units (Terran mech). Also, if youre massively ahead, carriers are a good route to secure a victory. There are obvious exceptions and other uses but this is the most general guideline imo.

Edit: And yeah, if you think you're gonna go carriers at any point in the game, you must start air upgrades early otherwise they get horribly out-scaled by mech upgrades and it takes forever to kill anything.
weiliem
Profile Joined January 2008
2031 Posts
March 19 2023 05:40 GMT
#17
On February 24 2023 08:21 ThunderJunk wrote:
Corsairs. Disruption web is great, and they make little disk pew pews when they shoot science vessels, moving them backwards a little bit.

I really laughed out reading the last part haha
Oppa feeding style
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