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Active: 760 users

Carriers or arbiters

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
SiarX
Profile Joined December 2021
102 Posts
February 23 2023 23:06 GMT
#1
What is generally more effective in PvT?
ThunderJunk
Profile Joined December 2015
United States677 Posts
February 23 2023 23:21 GMT
#2
Corsairs. Disruption web is great, and they make little disk pew pews when they shoot science vessels, moving them backwards a little bit.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
Mutaller
Profile Blog Joined July 2013
United States1051 Posts
February 24 2023 16:20 GMT
#3
I think arbiters are going to be more useful in more situations. A single arbiter becomes useful, and benefits the already established ground army. Arbiters can recall which is the ultimate counter play to a terran unsieging and moving their tanks aggressively. Stasis can be used aggressively and defensively. A lot of terrans are going to struggle with the detection of your ground units too, especially if you have multiple arbiters and a large army.

Carriers require a good economy because you need to pump them out and get a critical number. A single carrier is not going to do much for you. The carrier can simply attack move and do well if you are very far ahead, but to be a good carrier player there is actually quite complicated micro for them, while the arbiter is rather simple. If a map has a lot of dead space where goliaths cannot get under the carriers or even hit them, carriers will be a good move. On large dead space maps the terran will be forced to make wraiths, which makes toss ground army stronger
"To practice isn't for you to get better now in the present. Practice will never betray you and will always come back for you in the future." -Jaedong
NotJumperer
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States1371 Posts
February 24 2023 16:23 GMT
#4
--- Nuked ---
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-24 22:44:02
February 24 2023 22:43 GMT
#5
If scanner doesn't see your fleet beacon then carriers usually win but if you get immediately scouted terran can finish you off before getting critical amount or make million goliaths and believe me, 3/3 ranged golis are nightmare to deal with, you need Stork's control to win vs. it.
sunbeams are never made like me...
Akio
Profile Blog Joined January 2019
Finland1838 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-01 15:58:11
February 26 2023 12:43 GMT
#6
I don’t think it’s a question of which one you build, since you build Arbs in most games anyways to threaten recall, etc.
Mine gas, build tanks.
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2262 Posts
February 26 2023 21:32 GMT
#7
Bnet user level is Stylistic choice.

at pro level is based on maps and somewhat presonal preference.
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
Operations
Profile Joined February 2012
115 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-06-01 13:25:05
March 01 2023 07:35 GMT
#8
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1405 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-02 22:23:45
March 02 2023 14:48 GMT
#9
"Generally more effective" would be arbiters because of what mutaller wrote; they always strengthen your core-army (constant cloacking) and give you possibly game-deciding tactical options (recall/stasis). That's why they're the general late-game choice in PvT.

Carriers on the other hand can be very effective - "more" effective if you want - if the situation is right or rather: if you create the right situation for them, which generally means that they have to come as a surprise (early on 2 bases or in the lategame with some hidden stargates). Terran doesn't have to be in the dark until the last minute, but you need a window of time to produce enough carriers before Terran realizes what's going on and can counter with enough goliaths/turrets.
As was pointed out above, certain map-features make carriers much more effective, for example a lot of terrain that is impassable for ground-units.

From my experience, carriers might get you some easy wins on lower ranks and might seem "generally effective" there, but they get harder to use once the Terrans get decent at the core-skills (macro/control/scouting+reacting). The higher the rank, the better you have to be at carrier micro and decision-making on where to send them or else bulding them might backfire.
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
March 05 2023 05:43 GMT
#10
Arbiters haven't proven to be cost-effective, once the Terran defends a lot of bases with mines and turrets recall threat is much less relevant, and stasis can be prevented with EMP

Carriers, however, will be cost-effective as long as you keep upgrading them. So in the long term there's no real counter to carriers as long as Terran doesn't surprise you with cloaked wraiths or similar.

I'm just surprised why nobody makes a switch to carriers after arbiter, you already have one stargate and cloaked carriers are pretty good if you can afford them (late late game)
namkraft
Profile Blog Joined December 2021
447 Posts
March 08 2023 01:32 GMT
#11
On February 25 2023 07:43 outscar wrote:
If scanner doesn't see your fleet beacon then carriers usually win but if you get immediately scouted terran can finish you off before getting critical amount or make million goliaths and believe me, 3/3 ranged golis are nightmare to deal with, you need Stork's control to win vs. it.


Storkuuuu plays today!! let see them some dino-carriers !
Broodwar Forever
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3353 Posts
March 08 2023 20:14 GMT
#12
On March 05 2023 14:43 iopq wrote:
Arbiters haven't proven to be cost-effective, once the Terran defends a lot of bases with mines and turrets recall threat is much less relevant, and stasis can be prevented with EMP

Carriers, however, will be cost-effective as long as you keep upgrading them. So in the long term there's no real counter to carriers as long as Terran doesn't surprise you with cloaked wraiths or similar.

I'm just surprised why nobody makes a switch to carriers after arbiter, you already have one stargate and cloaked carriers are pretty good if you can afford them (late late game)


I think the main downside is the (massive) upgrade disadvantage you start with. 0-0 air vs 2-1 or 3-2 mech
Horang2 fan
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28642 Posts
March 12 2023 06:45 GMT
#13
On March 09 2023 05:14 WGT-Baal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2023 14:43 iopq wrote:
Arbiters haven't proven to be cost-effective, once the Terran defends a lot of bases with mines and turrets recall threat is much less relevant, and stasis can be prevented with EMP

Carriers, however, will be cost-effective as long as you keep upgrading them. So in the long term there's no real counter to carriers as long as Terran doesn't surprise you with cloaked wraiths or similar.

I'm just surprised why nobody makes a switch to carriers after arbiter, you already have one stargate and cloaked carriers are pretty good if you can afford them (late late game)


I think the main downside is the (massive) upgrade disadvantage you start with. 0-0 air vs 2-1 or 3-2 mech


Pretty inexpensive to go for a +1 air attack before you make the switch, tbh, so you'll have +2 by the time your first carriers are ready to fight. If you're considering doing a carrier switch you should do this, anyway.
Moderator
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
March 13 2023 19:18 GMT
#14
On March 12 2023 15:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2023 05:14 WGT-Baal wrote:
On March 05 2023 14:43 iopq wrote:
Arbiters haven't proven to be cost-effective, once the Terran defends a lot of bases with mines and turrets recall threat is much less relevant, and stasis can be prevented with EMP

Carriers, however, will be cost-effective as long as you keep upgrading them. So in the long term there's no real counter to carriers as long as Terran doesn't surprise you with cloaked wraiths or similar.

I'm just surprised why nobody makes a switch to carriers after arbiter, you already have one stargate and cloaked carriers are pretty good if you can afford them (late late game)


I think the main downside is the (massive) upgrade disadvantage you start with. 0-0 air vs 2-1 or 3-2 mech


Pretty inexpensive to go for a +1 air attack before you make the switch, tbh, so you'll have +2 by the time your first carriers are ready to fight. If you're considering doing a carrier switch you should do this, anyway.


A huge tell if core is still spinning after range though. Sure you could buy it anyway as its cheap but still.
-.-
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3353 Posts
March 15 2023 15:15 GMT
#15
On March 12 2023 15:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2023 05:14 WGT-Baal wrote:
On March 05 2023 14:43 iopq wrote:
Arbiters haven't proven to be cost-effective, once the Terran defends a lot of bases with mines and turrets recall threat is much less relevant, and stasis can be prevented with EMP

Carriers, however, will be cost-effective as long as you keep upgrading them. So in the long term there's no real counter to carriers as long as Terran doesn't surprise you with cloaked wraiths or similar.

I'm just surprised why nobody makes a switch to carriers after arbiter, you already have one stargate and cloaked carriers are pretty good if you can afford them (late late game)


I think the main downside is the (massive) upgrade disadvantage you start with. 0-0 air vs 2-1 or 3-2 mech


Pretty inexpensive to go for a +1 air attack before you make the switch, tbh, so you'll have +2 by the time your first carriers are ready to fight. If you're considering doing a carrier switch you should do this, anyway.


I had not considered it actually lol, I usually go into arbs thehn stay on it for a while then consider the switch but by then several minutes have passed.
It can also trick the T into making anti-carrier moves even though I dont have any and wont have for a while
Horang2 fan
G5
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States2898 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-03-18 06:21:25
March 18 2023 06:19 GMT
#16
Arbiters are better to stop timing attacks and carriers are better to end the game once you have a bank. Often, you'll see quick arbiter with stasis to stop a 2-1 timing attack, secure more bases, then transition into carriers once you have the bank to trade minerals (interceptors) for gas units (Terran mech). Also, if youre massively ahead, carriers are a good route to secure a victory. There are obvious exceptions and other uses but this is the most general guideline imo.

Edit: And yeah, if you think you're gonna go carriers at any point in the game, you must start air upgrades early otherwise they get horribly out-scaled by mech upgrades and it takes forever to kill anything.
weiliem
Profile Joined January 2008
2071 Posts
March 19 2023 05:40 GMT
#17
On February 24 2023 08:21 ThunderJunk wrote:
Corsairs. Disruption web is great, and they make little disk pew pews when they shoot science vessels, moving them backwards a little bit.

I really laughed out reading the last part haha
Oppa feeding style
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
March 20 2023 20:09 GMT
#18
Generally speaking, you want to use your dark archon to mind-control an SCV, and then use that SCV to build up to battlecruisers. The advantage to building battlecruisers over regular Protoss air units is that the Yamato Cannon ability has a very long range, and will destroy the enemy science vessel before it can hit your army with EMP. Remember, most of your units are 40% shields in terms of health, and getting EMP'd can really hurt your chances of winning an engagement with the Terran army!
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
March 23 2023 16:09 GMT
#19
On March 21 2023 05:09 ninazerg wrote:
Generally speaking, you want to use your dark archon to mind-control an SCV, and then use that SCV to build up to battlecruisers. The advantage to building battlecruisers over regular Protoss air units is that the Yamato Cannon ability has a very long range, and will destroy the enemy science vessel before it can hit your army with EMP. Remember, most of your units are 40% shields in terms of health, and getting EMP'd can really hurt your chances of winning an engagement with the Terran army!

Or you could use the dark archon to feedback the science vessel and skip the steps in between :D
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
TheGruntMaster6000
Profile Joined February 2023
11 Posts
March 27 2023 21:43 GMT
#20
Hello everyone, my forum topic on balance got deleted :/ I will try to get this conversation going again. I feal like this game has balance issues so i would like to give my input on some changes that could be implented if Blizzard were to consider updating this game with new unit stats. These would all mostly be nerfs for units that are used too much and buffs for units that rarely see play. Here we go!

Terran:
Missile Turrets can be mind controlled and spawn broodling works on them (their art does show a guy controling them afterall). (Nerf)
Scv health decreased to 40. (Nerf)
Marines go into a crash after their stim wears off causing them to attack and move slowly for the crash duration. Stim can kill your marines if they are low enough on health. (Nerf)
Firbats deal normal damage. (Buff)
Ghosts get stim pack. They get infinite nuking rage. (Buff)
Medics when healing units imbolalize them so they cannot move while being healed. (Nerf)
Vultures cost 75 gas instead of 75 minerals. (Nerf)
Spidermines (I am considering them a unit because I have OCD about each race not having an equal number of units) get triggered and attack allied plus player units alongside of enemy units. (Nerf)
Seige Tanks have 6 minimum range in seigemode. In tank mode, they deal concussive damage. (Nerf)
Goliaths deal explosive damage to ground units. Their air attack consists of four 5 damage missiles (+1 to each missile for each ship attack upgrade) rather than two 10 damage missiles. (Nerf)
Wraiths cannot move while stealthed. (Nerf)
Dropships have light armor instead of heavy. (Buff)
Science Vessals Irradiate ability has a chance to mutate target zerglings, hydralisks, or ultralisks into becoming their campaign super unit counter parts (devouring ones, hunter killers, and Tarrasque). Defensive matrix 150 hitpoints of protection instead of 250. Science vessals can only detect invisible owned units. (Nerf)
Valkyries can attack land with the same attack as they do with air. (Buff)
Battle Cruisers yomato cannon has infinite range. Attack range increased to 12. (Buff)



Zerg:
Spore Colonies can no longer detect (Nerf)
Drone health decreased to 30. (Nerf)
Zerglings no longer hatch two at a time. You only get the one. (Nerf)
Hydralisk now targeted as a large type unit. (Nerf)
Broodlings spawn in groups of 10 now from the spawn broodlings ability. They can also burrow. (Buff)
Infested Terrans no longer die when dealing there AoE damage. It is simply their attack. Recycle 2 seconds. (Buff)
Lurkers no longer deal their line damage, just a single 20 damage shot. (Nerf)
Defilers can only use consume on other defilers. Defilers also now get targeted as a large type unit. Plague no longer reveals stealthed units. (Nerf)
Ultralisks deal concussive damage. (Nerf)
Mutalisk's bouncy ball effect can now hit player owned units randomly. (Nerf)
Scourge only hatch one at a time instead of pairs. (Nerf)
Overlords no longer detect (Nerf)
Queens no longer require the command center to be damaged before it can infest it. Spawn broodlings creats 10 broodlings. Ensnare now clogs the weapons of units that fire projectiles, meaning they cannot fire when ensnared. (Buff)
Devours acid spores now act as orb of corruption from war3 as well as it does in broodwar. This means that for however many acid spores are on the enemy unit, it decreases its armor value (automatically 0 armor if it cannot be decreased any lower). The splash from acid spires also hits ground units (the devour can still only target air units though). Its attack cooldown is also decreased to 2 second. (Buff)
Gaurdians now have the same attack speed as zerglings with adrenal glands. (Buff)



Protoss:
Cannons require that the probe transform into them to construct them, resulting in a loss of the prope. (Nerf)
Probes obtain the same pathing AI and collision as dragoons. Health decreased to 10. (Nerf)
Zealots damage is dealt between 4 attacks (4x4) rather than 2 (8x2). (Nerf)
Dragoons health and shield changed to be 20 health and 160 shields. Damage made consussive. (Nerf)
High Templars Spionic stomwave ability does not damage units that are reverse grounded, meaning units which are touching the ground won't take damage. Only hovering units (such as archons) and air units take damage from it. Hallucination has a 10% chance to not work. (Nerf)
Dark Templar speed decreased to the same as non-upgraded overlord speed. They appear invisible to the player as well as the enemy unless their next to your detectors. (Nerf)
Dark Archons mind control does not result in the loss of all the dark archon's sheilds after casting. Feedback also empties all of the sheilds on a unit and deals its respective damage. Maelstorm has increase of 4 cast range. (Buff)
Archons get + 1 ground armor, light armor type, and plus 1 health regen.
Reavers scarabs cost 15 gas instead of 15 minerals. Their AoE damage also hits allied and player units. (Nerf)
Scouts ground damage decreased by 2. Their air attack consists of four missiles of 7 damage instead of two with 14 damage. (Nerf)
Corsair attack is mellee. (Nerf)
Observers can only detect burrowed units with the exception of broodlings and infested terrans. Can also detect observers. (Nerf)
Shuttles speed upgrade is now in the fleat beacon. Can only carry one unit at a time. (Nerf)
Carrier intercepters cannot leave or enter back into the carrier untill the carrier's sheilds are at 0 as the sheilds will deflect them. Can hold 10 intercepters instead of 8. (Overall Nerf)
Arbiters stealth area of effect also cloaks enemy units along side of allied and player units when they enter its area of effect. Damage type changed to consussive. Recall can now work on buildings but cannot recall units. (Nerf)


These are my ideas. I would love to hear your thoughts on them and see what you all think.
Have a good weekend!
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