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9/9 extractor trick (10/9)
10/9 Expo , extractor trick (10/9)
10/9 Spawning pool (9/9)
9/9 Overlord, extractor trick (10/9) (and don't cancel the spawning pool by accident... not that I'd know from experience or anything...)
Will have 4 larvae when spawning pool is done, spawn 8 lings, followed up by more for 14 before another OL is needed.
It's sort of very strange, rather risky, but quite unorthadox (especially being extractor happy).
Strenghts: Allows for 14 zerglings rather quickly (roughly 3 minutes and some change, I'd guess), a fast expansion and the ability to defend it, and can easily switch to mutas by doing double gas when needed, then lair/spire. Even after the lings are made, there seems to be plenty of minerals left over for another hatch, etc. Gives a fast, and potentially powerful start although quite a risky one at first.
Weaknesses: You dedicate yourself to a highly aggressive stance with zergling (either rush, harrassment, etc) and later in the game until you can bump your economy back due to lack of drones. Also, you sacrifice numbers of units - primarily drones due to slower OLs at first. If you can't get in with your lings, then you've just wasted a ton of resources to get them fast for nothing. If you get hit by some kind of rush after your initial assault (say, a zealot rush), you'd probably need some impressive micro to hold them off.
I'm not an incredible player and it's hard to find good players at times on battle.net. From just random tries, it seems more successful against Terrans (especially when close), and if you have good micro, can keep a Protoss player busy while you go for mutas, hoping the player forgets anti-air while dealing with non-stop ling harassment.
If nothing else, it can provide observers a bit of variety from the normally algorithmic-precision first few minutes  .
Anyway, I thought I'd throw this onto the forum and see if anyone had any initial thoughts, if it seems a viable, though strange thing, if anyone would be willing to try it sometime and see how things go, etc. Or any modifications, whatever.
Although there's a lot of weaknesses, it appears that you do have a pretty strong start if you can keep up the pressure, even against a good player. *shrugs*
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I don't really think the extractor trick is efficient. You lose 25% of the building cost (50*0.25=~13) while canceling structure and of course the time that a drone could spend to gather.
As for the build itself - it isn't useful in ZvT. You can't play offensively from the beginning when building hatch first and there's no need to consume so badly to defend a scv+rine rush.
It seems okay vs P, but then again I don't know much up this match up.
__
tomson
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i agree that the gas trick is a setback, in the time it take to get the extra drone, the gassed drone is only gonna bring u a maximum of 24 mins, off of 2 gas cancels u lose 26. besides that i think the build is not common but used. in personal experiance, it can be effective in all match ups, but a fast scout can quickly put an end to your program =\ i would give it more hope on a non-ramped map for it is easier to take advantage of mucho lings early.
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Thanks for the input. Concerning the extractor trick, it's useful when you won't get an overlord for such a long time although I think maybe I need to take another look at the amount it is used. Because you won't have an overlord until after your hatchery and pool are already building, the one drone you get can easily make up for the 13 after two trips.. and it will be going back and forth much more than that. The amount of time it is gone from mining depends on the map, but if you do it quickly, may be acceptable. Still though, doing it 4 times may be a bit excessive .
For the second comment, the idea is sort of being able to both go expantion hatch and play offensively at the same time (at the cost of early economy). Defense isn't a consideration within the skeleton build itself (you want to defend, get sunkens, not zerglings at such a cost). By holding off the overlord until much later, you get an increase in minerals letting you expand faster and still get the lings quickly... I think. That's kind of the idea anyway
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4492 Posts
<b class=quote>
9/9 Overlord, extractor trick (10/9) (and don't cancel the spawning pool by accident... not that I'd know from experience or anything...)
 Hilarious? 
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That 10/9 gas thing cant be all bad cuss i see yellow do it all the time.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
tomson you don't lose 25%, you lose wayyyy less of a percent if the buildling just started being made
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
n/m i was wrong maybe i was thinking about zerg eggs being cancelled or am i wrong about that too? asdf someone tell me
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I think tomson was right, and for units there is no loss in cancel (only the larvae).
My friend's secret build was like that, but instead of spending money on ling he spended it on drones . So he could manage really fast lair, and lurkers usually . To defend vs early rush, just bring 3-6 drone to expo. you can even make pool later, just be sure to have 2 colony waiting. Drone harass the offender .
Well that work against 99% player without risk, but do not try it against naz ;]
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Im not a z player but im pretty sure that the purpose of the 10/9 drone trick is to keep so there is no point in the early game where there are 3 larvae around your hatchery. meaning that after the 10/9 trick the z player will make an overlord. Then as soon as its made 2 drones, shortly after the 3rd larvae spawns (normally there is 3 waiting) What do i know though im a P player^^
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<b class=quote>On November 11 2002 06:03 AlmostSexy wrote:</B><BR> Im not a z player but im pretty sure that the purpose of the 10/9 drone trick is to keep so there is no point in the early game where there are 3 larvae around your hatchery. meaning that after the 10/9 trick the z player will make an overlord. Then as soon as its made 2 drones, shortly after the 3rd larvae spawns (normally there is 3 waiting) What do i know though im a P player^^
Normally it's like this: 9 lord, then extractor trick, 10/9. OL finishes, get another drone, or go for an early hatch.
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You won't ever reach 3 using a standard build, even without the Extractor trick. You can more 2 drones as soon as the overlord comes up, then shortly after, another drone. But interesting thought though. Never considered that .
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i always thought 8 ol was best
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Your all nuts if yellow does 10/9 its a good BO that should end this whole post right here lol. If its a zerg build order and yellow does it then its good. Who will say Yellows B.O is bad? lol
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Sweden33719 Posts
It is NOT YellOw's BO......... Notice the amount of Extractor tricks in the above mentioned BO.
Regards FrozenArbiter
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Plus, I won't say Yellow is bad. Doesn't mean he could possibly be wrong  . Unlikely though. The extractor trick in general, from tests I did seems to make you lose around 10 minerals more or less... not sure. I don't know his reason, and after looking at it, I'd have to do the math on the build, but anyway... considering the REST of the build, any thoughts?
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I was about to post something regarding this but since it was already posted i will follow up on it. ( oh gosh...2002 ). If we just disregard the extractor trick pros and cons. and we just consider getting another drone. I seems that build is rather powerful but very risky. You get an early expo. double gas. slightly late ling rush. and a jump start into a good eco.
I guess this is mostly efficent vs toss, cuz terran can easly bunker the expo before you get a chance to stop it, ( without ruining the point of the build to get a faster eco started up ). and zerg can 6 pool or 9 pool and win the game easily by either stoping your drones from mining and get more recenforcements. or just harrasment or mess up your hatchery. anyways, back to ZvT.
Toss Builds are pretty much standard. double gate... or gate cyb... or some other variation. the hatch will be done and the creep should be just finishing when the first zeolot makes it half way to your base. ( unless toss notices your build and decides to build some proxys gateways which would be uncool , making this build very risky -_-'' anyways). you should have around 6 lings to stop the first zeolot while 2-4 more come.... sunken... and lings. and hope your micro and macro are decent to hold off toss.
If toss consisitantly comes for you... just keep putting guys on money and sunkens and keep atlease 6-12 lings. and fight them off!!! and hope the lair is coming up soon. but even so.... This build is very risky. it all depends on how gosu the toss is.
if toss is smart or chobo, he would back off, giving you a chance to breath and build a 3rd hatchry and choosing either lurkers , mutas, or some combination. Now with 3 hatchry... a better eco and some nice micro and macro abilities, wouldn't you agree that you would be having a slightly upper hand???
from here on, may the best player win.
Regards .....
aSp]EvaNet[
Please tell me wat you guys think???
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Wait shouldnt this be in Brood War selection?
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On a more important note, if twisted had all the posts from his banned account, he'd be the closest one to dethrone FA
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um... ok could someone move this from the general section to the strategy section. This one is really out of place.
Ty!
EvaNeT
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bumping 2 year old threads?...... gonna get locked
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why the heck is this thread up? 2 years holy crap:O
and this thread seems really pointless
although its really hilarious to do similar to this in ZvT if they DO early rax you and still out of habit try to bunker your expo... heheheh many lings for your 2 marines 3 scvs to handle :D
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im pretty sure he bumped it because he did a search on the topic and found another thread discussing the exact same thing... so in addition to his post (which was lengthy and meaningful) you also have the commentary from 2 years ago, for what it's worth
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I've seen this used to good effect in 2v2s, as the zerg end up with the ability to produce a large number of lings early, but still leaves him with the ability to quickly beef up his econ.
It's a nice compromise between a 9pool and 12 hat build. I'm not sure it's all that much better than just 12 pool/12 hat, but it's worth playing around with.
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i played a zerg in wgtour that used this build. I Dont see why a zerg would make lings after it.. as the author suggested. It protects against bunker rush rather nicely and allows you to pump more drones. But I don't think its all that great
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on another note, perhaps if your BO is bad enough, it might affect the opponent in a live game. The russian wrestling team used to use that strategy all the time until it became mandatory to shower in the olympics.
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
9/9 extractor trick (10/9)
10/9 Expo , extractor trick (10/9)
10/9 Spawning pool (9/9)
9/9 Overlord, extractor trick (10/9)
wouldnt it be better to just 9/9,xpo,drone,pool,drone,overlord,extractor trick? ..
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I really like this build zvp, u get ur expo and pool up fast and ur never below 9 drones. Its solid vs most rushes, and if u scout 1 gate tech then its easy to power.
I dont think its risky.. as far as fast expo builds go its pretty conservative.
might be good vs bunker rush too
wouldnt it be better to just 9/9,xpo,drone,pool,drone,overlord,extractor trick? ..
this is pretty much the same but a little safer even. slightly weaker econ, but faster expo and
?faster pool?
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United States33502 Posts
that's like the build sauron wrote in his strat guide on I forgot what site a long time ago
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yep gas trick sux ;/
1st hatch 2nd spawn .. later gas in expo
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Norway10161 Posts
On December 15 2004 11:23 Waxangel wrote:
that's like the build sauron wrote in his strat guide on I forgot what site a long time ago
Gamegurus! <(
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On December 14 2004 22:01 Hautamaki wrote:
on another note, perhaps if your BO is bad enough, it might affect the opponent in a live game. The russian wrestling team used to use that strategy all the time until it became mandatory to shower in the olympics.
am i missing something? russian wrestling team?
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On December 16 2004 04:46 x2fst wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2004 22:01 Hautamaki wrote:
on another note, perhaps if your BO is bad enough, it might affect the opponent in a live game. The russian wrestling team used to use that strategy all the time until it became mandatory to shower in the olympics. am i missing something? russian wrestling team?
You are indeed missing something.
Hope this helps.
Cordially
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twisted, that is the other build however it is more suceptable to rush attempts. tomson, the drone is to get you a significant economical advantage. It lets you pump 1 more drone before you use all your larvae for lings. Also, your economy is much weaker with this build.. too fast gas is equal to 'gg' vs any good protoss. 9 hatch is less common zvt since terrans can defend it fairly easily. it becomes a disadvantage for the zerg (slight).
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On December 16 2004 11:26 my-baby wrote:
tomson, the drone is to get you a significant economical advantage. It lets you pump 1 more drone before you use all your larvae for lings.
It's cool that you're arguing with a point I made 2 years ago, but my view hasn't changed. I do realise what is the reason behind the extractor trick, but I already stated the obvious flaws... some time ago.
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Ive recently discovered that not many builds are good for zerg, just the slight change of strategies, really, every crazy build for zerg at beggining will probably get pwn by t or p pwnage, zerg is just so weak. I prefer to go for the general build, and then just change strat slightly, like add a drop or two in there somewhere, or get like 4 guards and maybe a queen, or something
Maybe quick queens or guards or sommething, but zerg just wont have enoguh $$ to support it, and will end up draining and losing, either way, its good to try some crazy shit once in a while 
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zerg is so weak, its always risky to do some crazy shit
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LOL reading some of those old posts cracks me up ! The best WITHOUT A DOUBT is FA's old posts with his little signature.
Regards KiLLme1st ~!
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First off the regular 9 ol extractor trick is good. I'm pretty sure it gives you an extra about 10 min if you do it fast but if you wait too long it will actually hurt you. Also I believe because your stuck with 3 larva the next larva gets delayed a second when you don't do the extractor trick. Also, is cancelling all buildings a 25% cost for all races and has nothing to do with how close they are to being built?
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its always kinda funny when ppl at talkin builds or strats at a high level and someone with no idea whatsoever tries to make a contribution.
edit: not u penguin =)
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17020 Posts
On December 21 2004 13:40 paniK. wrote:Ive recently discovered that not many builds are good for zerg, just the slight change of strategies, really, every crazy build for zerg at beggining will probably get pwn by t or p pwnage, zerg is just so weak. I prefer to go for the general build, and then just change strat slightly, like add a drop or two in there somewhere, or get like 4 guards and maybe a queen, or something Maybe quick queens or guards or sommething, but zerg just wont have enoguh $$ to support it, and will end up draining and losing, either way, its good to try some crazy shit once in a while
On December 21 2004 13:43 paniK. wrote:
I've also recently discovered that not many builds are good for zerg. Any colony first builds certainly aren't. Or 4 Ovie? Lots of builds are'nt good for lots of races -_- Zerg is just so weak. Ha. the "general build" and "changing strat slightly"? Nice. Let's add a drop or two in there somewhere. Of course, without a scout, you may run into, say, 1000 cannons in the toss base. Four guards and a queen? Hmm. Four guardians sure would be useful. And Zerg won't have enough $$ to support it? As Zerg if you never have more expansions that your opponent it's a gg already -_-.
zerg is so weak, its always risky to do some crazy shit
First, Zerg isn't weak. I'd be glad to play you an time, even though I'm just a bm newbie Also, in your preceding post, you say that "it's good to try some crazy shit once in a while", though how it's "always risky" to do your above mentioned "crazy shit". Good job Sherlock, you just gave the only two possibilities in the world. What, could it be always risky, but always good? t.t. anyway, you didn't even specify what your "crazy shit" is. As for getting queens, I wouldn't consider it "crazy shit". Zerg crazy shit is trying to Sunk rush a terran.
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whenever i did this build, it was just solely against being gayed on gamei... except i didn't wait for 8 lings, right when that overlord pops get an 11th drone so you can 11 hatch and 6 ling +_+ it's only good if they rush you though, and that is why i stopped doing it tt it can really murder your teching tt
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i think this strat is good vs toss if u really want a fe but toss is near. with that bo u can even fast expo vs 2 gate on 12/3 on lt
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to say a bo is great becuase yellow used it isnt wrong, but to say other people should just copy it because yellow used it isnt really very relative considering people cant play as well as yellow, replays clones are generally weak becuase of this fact.
example : prolly 50% of the terrans ive played in zvt's have tried boxers bunker rush strat vs me and two of them have been successful, the fact is people cant micro/macro like a progamer can and thus the strat doesnt work properly.
as for this build order i think its kinda outdated, i used to use something alot like this with the three extractor tricks, and when i used it long ago it used to work very well, these days however with the way gameplay has changed in zvp it really doesnt seem very successful, its just the evolution of things, its not a bad build, just outdated and hard to achieve without a very high skill level and understand of the zvp mu(like tomson said it would only work in zvp).
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what happens if your building and it dies.
how much do you lose?
is it 100%?
i dont think so.....
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EPT
