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Hey guys, new BW player here, and I came up with a few questions looking at the builds in TL's strategy sections:
1) 2 Gate DT
Is it an oversight that there is no Probe scout timing mentioned here? I'm 90% sure it is, because a related build for PvT (This one) shows the Probe scout, but I thought maybe because of the very all-in nature it's on purpose that this one doesn't scout and you just go "oh well if they hardcounter me I lose anyway", so I wanted to make sure 
2) Also related to that, is there a specific "priority list" for that PvP build that tells you in which order to get the next steps after you got your Nat Nexus up (Storm, HTs, additional gates, and I assume also a Robo for Obs?) or is that too much dependant on the gamestate?
3) This is more of a general question, but at the beginning of the game my apm aren't yet good enough to split the Probes to different mineral patches in time to not have a gap between the first 2 Probes being produced. Is it better to start the first Probe asap and split "after", accepting the small gap in production, or should I focus on the split first, and start the first new Probe once I DID split the probes I have? I assume the former, but again, just wanted to make sure.
Thanks a lot already for the help!
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Hey, welcome to BW. 
I'm not a Protoss so I won't comment on 1) and 2), but as for 3): Always start the worker first, then send the guys out and do the split.
Like so:
Learn from the best
I recommend you just take a minute every time you start playing, start a singleplayer game and do this a couple dozen times in a row, just the first 3-5 seconds with the split, then restart, redo, restart...
It'll be second nature in no time. You'll get better and more consistent at it and the gap in worker-production will get smaller.
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Hi,
For 1) I would say it s map dependent, 2p map you don't need to scout at all, 3p map some scout may be once you get the first goon and fully block the ramp (use the probe that was previously on the ramp with the zealot), 4p map same timing or a bit earlier.
Obviously if you don't scout at all, you are committed to the build and can't branch off, but i think that s fine.
2) depends on the opponent,.if you see reaver, you can skip your robo for a while (guaranteed no dt) and get storm quickly to deal with ennemy reavers. If 3 gate goon, similar stuff but i d get maybe some more gates for zealot/archons (a few extra goons don't hurt). If however you get into a tricky dt vs dt situation or you run into a natural with canons already, i d go for robo asap. But it s a bit hard to say and sometimes you just don't have the info so it s a call you have to make.
3) previous post is right, build probe first then move
Welcome to BW and good luck with the build
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Thanks a ton for the warm welcome and quick info already
Good to know I was at least doing the produce/split order right, just too slow for now  And yeah I figured itd be too dependant on the opponent's build to give a clear followup order, thanks a ton for the confirmation again!
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I would recommend you watch Snow how he splits: https://www.youtube.com/c/쭉튜브장윤철TV
One thing to remember is that Snow splits differently depending on map because probes position determines mining speed, so he splits in such way that they land in perfect position at once.
Here is the general way to do it:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/yHnH2ge.png)
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On September 15 2022 14:25 MeSaber wrote:I would recommend you watch Snow how he splits: https://www.youtube.com/c/쭉튜브장윤철TVOne thing to remember is that Snow splits differently depending on map because probes position determines mining speed, so he splits in such way that they land in perfect position at once. Here is the general way to do it:
Now this is curious. Is it just for better visibility or do you actually want 2 probes on the "futher back" mineral nodes? I was under the impression that you want to fill up the frontal nodes first, as they have a slightly shorter travel time from node to Nexus
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Yes the mining speed is determined by how fast they drop off minerals at CC, so specific minerals are still faster than the closest ones.
The best representation of this is if you watch a pro zerg player like Soma or Queen. Zerg got the best mining efficiency. There you can see this clearly.
The reason for this is because hatchery got the biggest collision offset meaning Drones dont drive straight into the hatchery and stop but do an instant turn instead. This is true for Nexus and CC too but not to the same extent.
This is very dependant on how the worker turns (what direction) and what pathing the map has from CC to mineral.
Try this.. Start a BGH map at top left position as Terran. Mine the left most minerals and observe pathing to CC.
Then you try build some Turrets at different locations inbetween and observe pathing getting fixed.
You cant do much about pathing except for adding buildings at different places that reroutes pathing for better or worse. Its a trial&error per map and pros do this all the time so you dont have to
Second you can change attack angle slightly towards a mineral and get a new pathing. Worst case here is that it resets after mineral drop-off. But what im speaking about here is permanent speed increase until you filled your mineral line with more workers than minerals, at that point workers will start to hop around to empty minerals.
All this is nerdy stuff and not necessary until you play at pro gaming level.
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So the graphic you sent was just for better visibility and I don't actively want to aim 2 of my initial workers to the forward, and 2 to the further back nodes, correct?
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On September 15 2022 20:43 WinstonBlack wrote:
So the graphic you sent was just for better visibility and I don't actively want to aim 2 of my initial workers to the forward, and 2 to the further back nodes, correct?
Shortest distance is not the same as fastest route if that is what you are asking.
Sometimes you mine faster from the "further" node.
There are tricks involving manually returning cargo and correcting the pathing manually.
You can search mineral boosting or optimization.
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On September 15 2022 22:18 Piste wrote:
Shortest distance is not the same as fastest route if that is what you are asking.
Sometimes you mine faster from the "further" node.
There are tricks involving manually returning cargo and correcting the pathing manually.
You can search mineral boosting or optimization.
yeah that was my initial impression, thanks for clearing up that I was wrong about it!
On September 15 2022 22:15 MeSaber wrote:Explanation
Holy shit, that was detailled. I understand now why you mentioned it wouldn't be relevant for me until I'm at a much higher level. This is incredibly interesting though, I'll try to incorporate it as early as possible, makes sure I only have to add small pieces later on.
Again, thanks a ton everybody for the quick and detailled help
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Well now you know what happens if there is some weird pathing with your workers. You can try to fix it using buildings by the sides or in the way of the path.
All pro gaming maps have their pathfinder regions fixed so there shouldnt be any weird quirks.
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On September 16 2022 03:47 MeSaber wrote:
Well now you know what happens if there is some weird pathing with your workers. You can try to fix it using buildings by the sides or in the way of the path.
All pro gaming maps have their pathfinder regions fixed so there shouldnt be any weird quirks.
Talking about workers, is it correct that like in SC2, it takes 2 workers to optimally mine a node, and 3 workers to optimally mine a geysir? I know some builds include taking workers off of Gas for a short period of time, just talking in general.
So If a main base has 9 Mineral nodes (Fighting Spirit for example), it would be fully saturated at 21 probes? (1x3 for Gas + 2x9 for Minerals)
Also, if sliding workers to a new base, is there a rule of thumb for how many workers you transfer? Say, for example, 1 per mineral node, or roughly half of what you had in your main base, etc.
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Well yes and no. The reason yes is because its possible to have 2 workers saturate a mineral.
The reason no is because the reasons mentioned here. You sometimes gets workers taking weird or slow routes to drop minerals and if they cant return in time then its not perfectly saturated.
The other reason no is because of worker syncing. If you have a worker coming back to its mineral and its taken already, it will search in a 10 ish tile radius for empty minerals to gather from. If your other minerals for some reason doesnt have a worker mining this will cause unsyncing where workers will randomly jump around.
So best possible saturation is 3 per mineral but its by far the most optimal.
1.5 per mineral is more like it or for zergs 1 per. Workers will always have the best possible mining in a fresh expand 1 per, even as terran/toss but you will rarely see this because how the game is played. Most of the time you will see 3 per or more in games because its a habit to constantly build workers until you expand and make a sizeable transfer depending on how many you have (leaving 1.5/2 per).
It all depends on how many minerals there are as for BGH you could use 2 per and still not feel saturated because the random jumps.
For gas its 3 yes.
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On September 17 2022 03:29 MeSaber wrote:
Most of the time you will see 3 per or more in games because its a habit to constantly build workers until you expand and make a sizeable transfer depending on how many you have (leaving 1.5/2 per).
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That's exactly my "problem". Given my current level, I wanted to limit myself to 2 base play and win with a strong timing attack off of those until I'm able to handle more bases and longer macro games. So with the "regular" method of just pumping Probes non-stop I will eventually always end up with too many x) That's why I was curious if there is a "perfect" saturation of a base in SC1
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If you limit yourself to 2 bases there is definitely a disadvantage to constantly pump workers as thats minerals who could be spent on army instead (also saves on psi limit (pylon costs)).
1.5/2 per mineral should be enough.
If you expand you could start producing workers for transfer as you start the expansion. You will get like 5 workers until exp is done.
There is a fine line when to stop producing workers and also when to produce. It all depends on the current game state. For example if you are at disadvantage you might need the minerals for army to regain control of the game first before getting workers.
Each worker you produce needs time to give return on investment. If you get too many they will be idle waiting for minerals instead of regaining value. This is also the case for a Nexus costing 400 which in itself doesnt add anything of value.
You should only exp when enemy cant kill you for doing so. Quite obvious one might think but yeah, some people gamble thinking enemy has no game sense and punish such mistakes.
If you think of the whole game as a trading game you will see where value and later a victory can be had. Killing a Nexus that cost 400 for no casualties is a great trade and possibly a victory. A Nexus kill by itself is possible mining value lost if enemy has produced a lot of probes now being idle instead of regaining value.
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Aye, that makes sense. Thanks a ton again for your help!
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