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Yeah, this was really helpful. I'm glad Chill put all of these threads together.
Anyways, I have another question about PvT, which is about the opening builds.
I usually go range robo, as it's a well-rounded, safe build, but I understand that opening 2gate range is also quite strong. Actually, it's the only build I ever was able to beat Prodigy[x] with. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble finding a good, economical 2gate range build.
I know of the one where you go 15 gate range goon pylon, but you cut probes for a very long time, and unless you're able to do a lot of damage with your initial pressure, you're behind economically.
After doing some stuff offline, I found that you can very easily make your second gate after your second goon (range after first, as usual), but the second gate comes online so late it almost defeats the purpose, in which case I'd default back to my usual 1gate range robo build.
So what's the usual 2gate range build other players use? Do you just cut probes momentarily and throw a gate in somewhere? I've been watching a lot of replays, but I'm seeing a lot of core after zealot builds, so I haven't encountered any actual 2gate range builds. T_T
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I usually only go 2gate range on maps like Longinus which aren't a bitch like Python or anything with a tight ramp for example. Otherwise, as you said, you won't deal enough dmg equal to your cut of economy. But if you somehow manage to get up the ramp, it should be over. So it really depends on your control and the control of your opponent. Hard call, tbh.
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On September 01 2007 07:47 BluzMan wrote:
EDIT #1: When first writing this, I've forgotten to add one essential pre-battle trick that I had in mind. Always, I repeat, always designate goons and zealots to different control groups. They behave so differently in battle that you would never want to have them selected at the same time.
I kind of disagree on this point. This explains why you find splash damage so harsh on your Zealots. I always mix Dragoons with a few Zealots, for instance 9 Dragoons 3 Zealots, and then base my flanking on splitting the control groups. This pretty much auto-spreads Zealots for you, reducing splash damage by a lot and making his Vulture micro harder. Extra Zealots can be kept in seperate groups, to be sent in just as the Mine/Tank fire has been assigned - clumping is not as dangerous for them.
You still need to do a lot of seperate Dragoon/Zealot micro, but I prefer to do this by Ctrl-select. You don't have time to manually spread Zealots all the time.
The by far most important mistake any Protoss can make is to fail at flanking. What you want to do is this. (Never let yourself be fooled into engaging before you have set up a proper flank. You are not trying to defend the middle of Python - let him advance a bit while you fan out.)
- Hotkey control groups of 9Dragoon/3 Zealot, extra Zealots in seperate groups.
- Send each mixed hotkey group to one point on a arc around his push.
- Manually fan out each group, so that no Dragoon is behind of another. Put Zealot groups between-behind mixed groups. Unclump Zealots (not one Dragoon apart, it is really difficult to spread your Zealots too much) and place them among/behind of Dragoons. Make sure there are holes in your Dragoons for Zealots to pass through.
- Attack-move your army, not at the front of his push, put in the middle/back of his push. Else, you groups will meet up in front of his army, your Dragoons will clump and demonstrate crappy pathing while taking insane splash, and you lose.
- While your army is engaging, ctrl-select the most advance zealots and force-move them through his push to pull mines, keep spread, soak Tank damage and force friendly-splash from Tanks and mines.
- Once your armies have clashed, if you have a good Dragoon formation, they need no micro whatsoever. The only thing you need to do is manually unclump Zealots and force them towards his Tank. Generally, you will have 23658792 Zealots clumping around his foremost Tank: select all except for one and move them further into his push, then split them onto different Tanks.
- If you want to be really pro, you need to be building Zealots and sending in reinforcmenets while fighting. If you have been a good boy and pulled him closer to your base before engaging, your reinforcements are close by.
Note:
- You will encounter Tank-heavy, clumped pushes - these call for lots of Zealots. You will also encounter Tank-light, Vulture/mine-heavy pushes with pretty much one lonely Tank here and there. These call for lots of Dragoons. It is often a good idea to just a-move 12 Dragoons towards a Tank if they are very thinly spread: Dragoons can kill them mostly out of range of the rest of his Tanks, while Zealots are forced to bathe in mines and get in range of all of his Tanks, while Vultures will kill Zealots and withdraw to the next Tank.
- Mineclumps which are not protected by at least two Tanks should be engaged by pure Dragoons before your Zealots engage. It is better to take two Tank hits to your Dragoons than to take ten mines on your Zealots.
On philosophy: You are actually never trying to deal damage when breaking a Terran push. It is not a big deal if you are hitting Vultures or Tanks with Dragoons or Zealots - it is all good (as long as they are hitting something instead of getting in eachother's way). Your only job is to force Tank hits onto Zealots, avoid taking splash damage and try to make Terran splash himself.
Note that getting all of your units into range is mostly a matter of flanking - everything else is microing your Zealots.
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On March 06 2008 04:41 rpf wrote:
Yeah, this was really helpful. I'm glad Chill put all of these threads together.
Anyways, I have another question about PvT, which is about the opening builds.
I usually go range robo, as it's a well-rounded, safe build, but I understand that opening 2gate range is also quite strong. Actually, it's the only build I ever was able to beat Prodigy[x] with. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble finding a good, economical 2gate range build.
I know of the one where you go 15 gate range goon pylon, but you cut probes for a very long time, and unless you're able to do a lot of damage with your initial pressure, you're behind economically.
After doing some stuff offline, I found that you can very easily make your second gate after your second goon (range after first, as usual), but the second gate comes online so late it almost defeats the purpose, in which case I'd default back to my usual 1gate range robo build.
So what's the usual 2gate range build other players use? Do you just cut probes momentarily and throw a gate in somewhere? I've been watching a lot of replays, but I'm seeing a lot of core after zealot builds, so I haven't encountered any actual 2gate range builds. T_T
You might be stressing range too much. Cutting probes is not a sin, it is a skill. If it allows you to expand faster, it pays off. That said, there is never any good reason to do excessive probe-cutting with only one Nexus.
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Yeah, I really don't like to cut probes, but in some builds it can beneficial to cut probes momentarily, or even just cut one probe to make room for another goon, etc.
I did some testing to try to figure out a better 2gate range opening for PvT, and this is what I came up with:
Do your usual 1gate range:
8 p
10 gate
12 assim
14 core
15 pylon
17 goon
20 range
Cut probes:
20 gate
20 goon
22 pylon
25 goon, goon
The second gate finishes when the second goon out of the first gate finishes, and even though you cut probes to fit in the second gateway and get the third pylon in early enough so that it finishes when you need it to, I think the lost potential income is worth it, especially since you'd be using a build like this to be aggressive, or at the very least, stop any early-game T timing rushes.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
You're vastly overvalueing the economical effect of cut probes. With gate on 15, you get MANY goons REALLY fast, you will see terran losing SCV's, cutting SCV's to squeeze units, removing them from mining and other stuff that hampers him. Unless you chose that build on a totally unsuitable map (ramp, wall close to ramp), you're pretty much guaranteed to do damage one way or another. Even if he manages to pull an armadillo building bunkers and walking with SCV armies everywhere to block your goons from his tanks, just double expand and your economy will soon be as healthy as ever.
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That's why I always prefer to play "standard." Often times when you cut probes, you absolutely have to succeed in whatever it is you're doing.
It's like if I were to 9/10 or even 10/12 PvZ. If I don't force him to waste larvae on lings, and I allow him to just pump drones, then I've not only failed, but I've allowed myself to fall behind economically.
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I don't think this has been discussed, but I'm unaware of what you would do when a Terran sets up his vultures so they are either:
- Directly beside and behind the tanks.
- Surrounding the tanks on hold position. I think DaZe discussed that this is what he does, because if they are close to the tanks on hold position, they are only in range to hit zealots, so that's what they will do.
My theorycrafting ideas would be that since vultures are not hitting goons, you could go a little more goon reaver and manually target tanks? Seems like it would work with lower numbers of tanks, but with higher numbers you would probably lose them all. I'm asking because when you try to diffuse in this situation, your basically just throwing zealots into vultures that are only able to hit your zealots.
Any help about this?
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
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loved reading it, thanks.
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this guide was usefull, despite i knew most of these themes i really kinda forgot about xploit them , its a very complete guida, to add something, i see most ppl doesnt like to xtasis the front units, i like to do it, but then i run the battle to kill some expo, always leading 3-4 lots separately before mi entire army, this way almost everyterran unseige the mid and rear tanks and go defend his expo, then is when i place some lots , 1 or 2 dts, or HTs, if needed some gons or my new arbiter to kill the tanks frozen, anyway my lack of micro almost always shades my techs and fast thinking t-t
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wow. really nice, Its helped me out as a terran to know what a protoss should be doing 
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What a bump o.o
i see most ppl doesnt like to xtasis the front units
The idea is that you don't want to create a wallin for the Terran against your Zealots, and that you want your dragoons to close the attacking distance as fast as possible. You example is kind of confusing me, but in any battle where you're trying to break the Terran's army with your army, stasis priority goes to the largest clump of units and the farthest Tanks.
I hate when I see nooby Protosses attacking groups of tanks without zealots... it just hurts me so bad inside. Not only do Zealots draw fire away from your goons (which are large units and take full damage from Tanks), but they also kick major Tank ass when they're speedy. I mean, there are times when you can do it, but you just wanna smack the person when they lose 12 dragoons and kill one tank.
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i hardly ever even have to face terran armies head-on unless they do very very early push. my favorite is using goons that you have been pumping + shuttle of 1/2 reavers to stop pushes by continually retreating from siege. (scarab outranges unsieged) compliments fast arb build nicely and by this time you should have 4 bases + arb + army and then can begin wrecking havoc with recall. I rarely go face first in PvT and I dont recommend it lol thats my contribution to this
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On July 25 2008 14:44 inertinept wrote:
i hardly ever even have to face terran armies head-on unless they do very very early push. my favorite is using goons that you have been pumping + shuttle of 1/2 reavers to stop pushes by continually retreating from siege. (scarab outranges unsieged) compliments fast arb build nicely and by this time you should have 4 bases + arb + army and then can begin wrecking havoc with recall. I rarely go face first in PvT and I dont recommend it lol thats my contribution to this
Someone tell this to all Protosses! He solved whole pvt!
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On July 25 2008 14:44 inertinept wrote:
i hardly ever even have to face terran armies head-on unless they do very very early push. my favorite is using goons that you have been pumping + shuttle of 1/2 reavers to stop pushes by continually retreating from siege. (scarab outranges unsieged) compliments fast arb build nicely and by this time you should have 4 bases + arb + army and then can begin wrecking havoc with recall. I rarely go face first in PvT and I dont recommend it lol thats my contribution to this
And what are you intending to do, if a Terran decides to waltz into your base and kind of slow-pushes forward? Sooner or later you'll have to face the Terran army in it's full strength.
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EPT
