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Russian Federation4235 Posts
This is my first attempt to write something creative on the strategy forum, so don't judge harshly. This also won't cover advanced push breaking concepts because they are so numerous.
1) What's the fuss?
Pretty much any toss has been in this situation - you are an average macro-PvT-focused protoss aiming to get an economical and unit count edge over the terran, then go air tech and pwn him. You do good, but every once in a while you meet a terran with good macro and a sense of timing and this is what happens: you feel totally helpless. Despite having a unit advantage at times, you have the feeling protoss units are totally inefficient and you always lose to that timing push, no matter if it occurs early in the midgame (4 factories) or later after the terran turtles and you're about to start air tech (6-8 facts and armories). Despite PvT being considered easy, you're being faced with a fact - A-move doesn't work. If that's the case, you're probably the one I'm writing this guide for.
2) Unit roles in protoss and terran armies.
Basically, everyone knows a terran's army consists of tanks and vultures and a protoss one of dragoons and zealots. There could be tweaks like an occasional reaver or high/dark templar on the protoss side or some marines/early goliaths on the terran's, but those are additions, the army bulks should be the ones listed above. Let's try understanding why it is so.
2.1) Unit counters.
Well, it's widely considered that there is a counter square: vultures counter zealots, zealots counter tanks, tanks counter dragoons, dragoons counter vultures. While it can work to some extent, it is in fact inaccurate. There are only two somewhat legitimate concepts here: dragoons are indeed strong vs vultures and vults are indeed strong vs zealots. However, to break pushes well, you must better realize how unit A works versus unit B. First of all, dragoons are not a pushover vs tanks. In fact, they are very effective versus tanks. They cost significantly less, they do about the same damage per second (basically, the damage per second of an unsieged tank and a dragoon are really close, with the tank being slightly ahead with 30/37, and the dragoon slightly behind with 20/30) and have more life, they regenerate shields quite fast (and that is quite important early-game), the only fields where tanks decisevely beat them are splash, range and projectile speed. This way, if you somehow manage to distract the tank fire from dragoons while you close in and keep goons spread, you will remain effective. This is the reason while people always start out with dragoons PvT - there isn't really a strong counter to dragoons at the point of the game where numbers are scarce and you can afford to micro hardcore. Thus, point number one: goons are universally effective.
Concerning the other counter pair - zealots and tanks, tanks follow a critical mass pattern. At first, they are indeed ineffective vs speedlots, but as their number increases, they start beating them unsieged, and if their numbers increase even more, they can afford the luxury to fight the zealots sieged. The reasons are simple - while tanks seem to do less damage to zealots (a direct tank hit kills a zealot in 4 iterations, a dragoon in 3, no matter the upgrades), zealots are usually very clumped, therefore, they receive an insane amount of splash damage and die to the tanks even faster than goons. Therefore, just running them in and a-moving won't do the trick. Zealots are very effective, however, if you somehow instantly get them close to the tanks and abuse friendly fire damage. Point number 2: zealot effectiveness vs tanks is limited.
Another counter pair would be vulture vs dragoon. Some facts worth noting: vultures do full damage to shields and shields compose almost half of goon life. Shooting goons with vults is not that a bad idea. Fact #2: vulture dies to 6 goon hits, tank dies to 8. But a vulture costs 75 minerals whereas a tank costs 150/100. Thus, despite the dragoon seemingly being a direct counter to vultures, it is actually profitable for a terran to make toss shoot at them. Point number 3: vultures are countered by dragoons in terms of direct confrontation, but vults are very effective at soaking up goon fire in a real battle. Plus, they get mines.
2.2) So, we've seen that both armies get the maximum of their effectiveness when mixed. But the reason of that mix is not the direct unit counters. You'd want to have a mixed army regardless of whether terran's army is balanced or is pure tank. Likewise, a terran would want to have a mixed army regardless of whether toss has zeal/goon, pure goon or pure zeal. It's very important to understand that. Mixing is good.
3) Generic push theory
A good terran push composition involves a tank line in the rear, a vult line in the middle (it's the mobile line which adapts to being in front of the tank line no matter what direction toss forces come from) and a mine line in the front. A good terran will remove all mines in the rear of the push because they do more havoc than good and will lay mines during the fight. How does it work? The mine line is essential - it protects the push from a toss army just walking into it. Toss has to defuse the mine line first or risk losing a large portion of his army. Mine dragging is good, but it doesn't really work if the terran has good positioning/controls his vultures well and you can't really expect to drag mines all the way to the tanks. However, it's ok to start running in with your zealots when mine numbers have been thinned, just don't fire prematurely. Tank line does the main damage and it's immobile, so it's function should be pretty clear. There are good and bad tank line shapes, but this is one of the pretty adavanced concepts that are hard to perfectly understand. Generally, it shouldn't be too clumped and it shouldn't be too widespread. Exact formations will not be covered in this guide. The vulture line's function is the most dynamic of all. First of all, obvioulsy, vults deal damage to zealots. Second, they can wear down goons by shooting at their shields, but this should really be only done if there isn't anything better to do. Third, vults act as a meatshield for tanks - they provide a direct physical obstacle in the way of toss army, making toss units take longer routes and clump even more so that they are vulnerable to splash. Fourth, vults soak up dragoon fire as mentioned above. Fifth, vultures can lay mines during the fight which is also an essential moment that makes pushes much harder to break.
So, these are the basics of how a push works. Now to discuss on how to beat it.
4) Engaging the push - army composition
That's it. Usually, before you get a first group of dragoons full, you shouldn't even consider zealots - dragoons should do just fine. Range upgrade is critical here, though, so if you plan to engage with the main terran force, do it asap. When to get zealots is somewhat dependant on style - some people costruct a citadel and produce zealots en masse after getting those first 12 goons, some people can get up to 2 full goon groups before getting zealot speed. A shuttle with 4 zeals is enough to bolster 12 goons usually, you start really needing zealots later. Note that a shuttle effectively increases your zealot numbers because they don't thin during approaching the tanks. So, 4 slow zeals in a shuttle could be somewhat close in effectiveness to 8 speed zealots without a shuttle, they just get into their right place in the tank line instantly. Zealot bombs are somewhat of another trick, though, dropping into the vult line can be even more profitable in that case, whereas during push breaking you almost always drop into the tank line. After getting 20 or so goons you should really invest into zealots though and from then one keep the army balanced. Note that when you are preparing to engage, queue up zealots in your gates - they tend to die first, so if you have to withdraw, you're going to balance your army sooner than if you ordered goons.
EDIT #1: When first writing this, I've forgotten to add one essential pre-battle trick that I had in mind. Always, I repeat, always designate goons and zealots to different control groups. They behave so differently in battle that you would never want to have them selected at the same time.
5) Engaging the push - micro techniques
5.1) Flanking.
This technique is extremely effective and you should make a habit of always using it no matter what unit numbers you have - for example, you have a terran army at point B and your army at point A1.
A2.......
........B
A1.......
Now, you don't just A-move your army to B, but first order in to move to A2. While moving, your army formation changes from a blob to something more resembling a line. Then, before your troops reach the destination, A-move dragoons to B. The difference is tremendous.
5.2) Defusing the mine line.
It is important not to run your zealots into the mine line. Most of the time you want the dragoons to take the first tank volley and only send the zealots after it. As mentioned above, zealots are very vulnerable to splash, be it mines or tank fire, so you want them to evade it for as long as possible. If the mine line is thick, consider attacking from a different direction, waiting for the terran to push closer or prepare for casualties. If a mine line is thin, you should engage in the following way - flanked dragoons take the first tank volley and send projectiles to the mines, then at the same time you send out your zealots. If everything is done correctly, by the time they reach the mine line, it's already largely defused and the second tank volley should strike them slightly later. Getting the timing right here can be very hard and it only improves with training. If the vults are positioned in the mine line, though, proceed engaging with zealots - goons will not defuse the mines that well, but the gross splash vultures take will compensate for that somewhat.
5.3) Diffuse micro.
This is another essential technique you should use every time - zealots are most effective when they are in the tank line. So you shouldn't just A-move zealots into the push, instead, you move the zealots in the tank line (effectively "diffusing" into the push), the press A-move once they reach it. It is probably one of the most effective things to do and it's relatively easy, so do it every time no matter what.
5.4) Goon micro.
There's a mistake many tosses do - they engage right, they diffuse their zealots and they just start watching the fight like if it was a movie of sorts. Then they come to the situation where their zealots are dying and their goons keep shooting vultures taking heavy tank fire. This is very wrong. Dragoons shooting at vultures are very inefficient so you should target tanks whenever possible. After your zealots are diffused, keep doing move and shoot micro with your goons trying to focus fire on tanks and getting closer after each shot. This can get very hard with large army numbers but it's still very effective. Such micro is countered by the terran by laying mines during the fight, so keep a close look at them - you'd want to home them into tanks whenever possible and avoid getting goon clumps hit by them. If you're being confronted with tanks only, you're doing fine. Your zealots should be ok fighting on their own at that time, so focus your attention on goons. On timings, it's good to move in with goons right after the diffusion because the tanks will get distracted and will fire at zealots allowing you to take a good position. Moving in sooner or later than that is generally a bad idea.
5.5) Shuttles.
In theory, it's very simple. You'd want to unload your shuttles either simultaneously with zealot diffusion or slightly before it to distract tank fire from clumped diffused zealots to lone unloaded ones, effectively lowering splash damage. But getting it done can be hard because those 2-3 seconds can get pretty micro-heavy. Practice, though, and you'll eventually get it right.
6) Conclusion.
As you can see, fighting with toss army may be easy, but getting the maximum out of it is probably just as hard as getting the maximum out of a terran army. There are lots of stuff to do, but the techniques described above could be VERY effective. For comparison purposes, I've setup an imaginary terran push in a UMS map that consisted of 16 vultures, 16 mines and 8 tanks. The toss force consisted of 12 zealots, 12 goons, 1 observer and 1 shuttle. The simulation was far from perfect as the terran didn't micro, but A-moving into that push resulted in a loss with like 1/3 of terran army alive (including half the tanks), while applying all of those techiques ensured a confident vistory with about 1/3 of toss army kept alive. As you can see, the difference is game-deciding. I've intentionally left out additional techiniques like shuttling reavers (can get really hard with unload timings, but potentially cruelly effective), DT's (very terran-dependent) and HT's (reach style push pwnage, again, very effective, but really hard to time right). This is a basic guide and I hope you'll find it useful.
EDIT #2: Also a part of the conclusion, as you can see, microing your army can get pretty intense and very deciding, but this kind of micro is very reliant on careful timing in a timespan of like 3-6 seconds. To be successful with breaking pushes, you'd ultimately want to control the position of every single unit and time everything with millisecond-precision. Sadly, that is not possible. You can try and bend the odds to your favor (and this guide focuses on how to do that), but still the results you're going to see will be pretty random. Better, but not always best. So, PvT is indeed a macro match-up in terms of that you would want to have a decisive unit count advantage whenever possible. Breaking a terran push with equal forces means taking risks, but it's still helluva fun.
Appendix A: Using Reavers.
Note: this part of the guide won't focus on reaver harassment tactics in general, but instead on using reavers to complement your army when fighting terran pushes.
1) The Protoss Reaver.
Reaver is a very potent unit. It can do enormous damage at the same time hiding safely in a shuttle. It's best matched against workers, but can be a feared tank killer as well. Utilizing it well can make your reaver build work vs almost anything terran can do, be it 2 fac, FD or plain fast expand build. The only terran build that does well vs reavers is fact port with a wraith or vulture drop (unless you do something crazy, terran's drop will simply come faster), but you don't see much of those nowadays. However, it's abit tricky in usage. I'll try to explain some aspects of how it works here.
2) Basic micro technique.
It's very simple on paper - you unload your reaver, right click your target, then right after firing you pick it up. However, it can get somewhat tricky because if you want to remain effective, you need to select your reaver at some time and spam 'R'. The way I do it:
- Select shuttle (hotkey 3)
- Wireframe drop reaver (a good habit, because often you will have other units inside your shuttle)
- Select both reaver and shuttle
- Right click target (unless it's a turret, in that case you need only reaver selected)
- Hotkey select shuttle
- Move shuttle about half screen behind the reaver (if you move it closer, the shuttle will have less acceleration)
- Select reaver
- Spam 'R' to build scarabs
- Right click the shuttle as it flies by
It can be done in an easier way - you generally don't need maximum shuttle acceleration vs terran, so steps 3 and 6 can be simplified. You can also load the reaver using the shuttle and right clicking the reaver - it again offers less shuttle mobility, but you generally don't need it vs terran. Now that the basics have been laid down, let's see how to get the most out of your reaver.
3) Solo shuttle.
This means your army stands near the terran push setup and waits. It is important, however, for it to be near, because solo shuttle is countered by terran by simply unseiging (turrets work, but to a much lesser extent), but him unseiging is precisely what you want him to do. If he tries this stunt, just engage with your main force. The exact technique stands as following - you load a shuttle with a reaver and two zealots, then first unload a zealot. What happens next - the tanks fire, your zealot dies and at the same time you unload your reaver, pick a target, fire and load into the shuttle. If you do it well, the tanks won't fire their second volley. Finish off your target by repeating the process. However, as simple as it may be, there are several tricky moments here.
3.1) Turret rotation - technique tweak.
Bearly all units in starcraft have a rotation time. This means that a tank that is facing a different direction than the one you unload at will fire slightly later than the tank facing it directly. The time gap is very small, much less than a second on fastest, but it is there. This can mean that vs 4 tanks, for example, your zealot might not yet be dead by the time you unload your reaver, and your reaver might get hit by the blast right after unloading. So make a habit of unloading on the move, so that the zealot and the reaver unload at different places.
3.2) Turret rotation - large tank numbers.
This becomes an even more dangerous issue when tank numbers are greater. Basically, what happens - the tanks facing the zealot fire, kill it, and the tanks facing the opposite direction don't fire at all. In a setup like this:
you will lose your reaver. Reaver usage requires a keen eye above everything. This is however not 100% accurate as there's a delay on "tank fires - unit takes damage" as well, so those rear tanks might still fire. But they as well might not, so you'd better not take risks with such an expensive unit.
3.3) Watch out for mines.
I rarely even consider reaver push stopping stunts when I don't have observers around unless I'm totally positive there are no mines. There are too many ways to screw up - your zealot might trigger the mines on the reaver, your reaver might trigger mines and even if you defuse the mines by pickup micro, you've still wasted a zealot.
3.4) Maximizing the damage.
Well, to the interesting part. Let us look at how scarabs traverse terrain. When having target set, they treat other units and buildings as obstacles and behave exactly like a melee unit when trying to reach their target. When a scarab comes in close vicinity to the target, it exlodes, dealing AoE. Let's look at the screenshot:
As we can see, there are three tanks, A and B are potential drop zones. Where you drop your reavers and what units you target can be a deciding factor on the damage you do.
Firing from A at tank 1 will result in the scarab exploding at x1, dealing a mere 100 damage to one tank. Not the maximum efficiency.
Firing from A at tank 3 may be a better choice, but it will most likely explode at x5, only dealing lowered splash damage (rr even no damage) to tank 1 and no damage to tank 2 at all.
A - tank 2 would be the perfect choice because it would most likely explode at x3, dealing full damage to all three tanks.
Now if you unload at B, firing at tank 1 will land at x2 (100 damage), at tank 2 - at x4 (100-150 damage) and at tank 3 - x3 (300 damage). As you can see, this stuff is important.
Generally, if several units are adjacent, you'd want to launch the scarab in such a way that it slides on the edge of a unit while reaching another one, described on the picture below:
Red line marks scarab trajectory, yellow arrow - the tank you want to target.
Firing like that ensures that you do full splash damage and maximize your reaver usage.
There's also nothing wrong in firing vulture clumps, a push without vultures is helpless.
4) Head-on assault.
Basically, the amount of different situations here is unbelievably large, at it seems impossible to cover them all. You should however, take notice that most of the tricks applicable when soloing are applicable here, so don't drop until you're totally sure that all the tanks have fired. If you catch the terran off-guard and he doesn't micro, this is basically autowin, but if he switches targets from your incoming force to your reaver, you might get screwed. The main difference from soloing here is that you may keep your reaver on the ground sometimies and that you don't need to fire it at the same targets. If you can do gross splash to a different unit cluster that you've fired first, do it, 50 hp tanks are a pushover anyway. If the push is small, you can synchronize your main force with the reaver, only unloading after a tank volley. There are two main techniques here:
4.1) Rear drop.
Your army shouts warcries and runs into the terran push, while your reaver is being dropped on the edge of it's firing range in your rear. This is applicable with large tank numbers or a widespread push when you're able to monitor which tanks in the frontline have made their shot and can launch scarabs safely. The terran's rear will be unable to reach the reaver. It's effective, but your attention will be focused on the reaver and it will be hard to micro the rest of your army. It's also the perfect position to fight unsieged terran armies. Yet your target selection will be limited that way.
4.2) Front drop.
This involves using reavers as the spearhead of your army. Basically, you load your shuttle with a reaver and two zealots (the unit that loads last will unload first so make sure that unit is NOT the reaver) and micro like you would normally micro a zealot-full shuttle - first set a direction for it, then press 'U' and click on the shuttle itself, so it unloads "on the fly". If you're proficient with it, your reaver will unload right at the spot you need it at. Then, select the reaver and fire at the most delicious target (usually it's the one nearing you). Proceed microing the rest of your army. This technique is best used for small or clumped pushes so that you're able to avoid most of the damage by just dropping your reaver next to the tanks. However, if you timed it right, you will still be able to make at least one shot, so feel free to use it vs pushes of any kind. Remember that with reavers time and space are linked - be careful not to drop it in range of misplaced tanks that can't reach the other units.
4.3) Multiple reaver dropping.
Well, this is a terra nova for most tosses and it's quite hard to theorize here. The only point worth mentioning here is that designating a specialized shuttle for each reaver seems safer than loading two reavers in one. You can make the same front drops with 2 or even more shuttles, but with that many, it could become next to impossible to monitor and control their safety.
5) Appendix conclusion.
Reavers are potentially devastating, but they are quite hard to use and somewhat unpredictable both due to scarab pathing and due to micro requirements. So, just going reavers to counter pushes is rather uneconomical. If you manage to use them for both offense and harass, you can win the game with reavers alone.
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Canada7170 Posts
Well written. Do you intend on covering more advanced tactics later on?
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Nice guide; a little basic but good for PvT beginners 
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On September 01 2007 07:47 BluzMan wrote:
A2.......
........B
A1.......
Now, you don't just A-move your army to B, but first order in to move to A2. While moving, your army formation changes from a blob to something more resembling a line. Then, before your troops reach the destination, A-move dragoons to B. The difference is tremendous.
I did not know this ;D
This actually will help me a lot since I realized attack moving my army usually led to defeat since my army clumped up and would get owned. Also, that "diffuse" thing also will help me out.
THANKS! I've been waiting for a guide like this for ages. I got bored with BigBall's P guides and FrozenArbiter's SimCitytoss guides ;P
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nice guide 
would you mind uploading the ums map?
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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I really liked the explanation of the unit counters, as it addressed the real game dynamics at the complexity at which they exist in the game rather than dumbly reducing them into the same, tired simplifications we see all the time.
I'd like to add that cloning zealots against tanks is often a practical technique that can be very helpful in spreading them out and making them draw splash to tanks even more rather than splash to themselves.
What do you think about manually spreading out units before battle (if you have time) so they don't clump when walking in? Anybody do that much? Getting a bigger flank arc is generally better, although they're related concepts, but I think it helps some.
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I like to go early reaver drop to avoid the whole problem.
I suck at breaking a well macro-ed push.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Other thoughts:
Putting dt's in shuttles instead of zealots is really effective as well, especially on non-buildable centers. Putting them well forces the Terrans to use up multiple scans if they even notice.
Always have goon/obs clearing out mines around the map when possible, you definitely do not want to hurriedly set up a flank only to find about half a control group of goons dead to a thoughtfully-placed minefield
There are two approaches to stasising - ideally you want to start stasising his guys near the middle/rear, because if you stasis everything up front - the ones that were going to die anyway - you'll just make it that much harder to kill the stuff in the back. But in the open, when T has lots of gols, you'll probably not be able to do that, since your arbs will die if you fly it too far forward, so you'll have to stasis super-conservatively.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
wow realllyy interestingc i sometimes play tvp against a friend even with pretty even army sizes he just comes in to attack me and all his shit melt and hes like WTF TVP IMBA and i dont know how to explain.
now i can just direct him to your thread!! :D:D
thank you
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thanks a bunch for the guide bluzman
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thanks this should help me... but is there any info on how to deal with them building missile turrets?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
First, thanks alot for your feedback everyone!!! I've made a few corrections to the guide fixing a few typos and adding a little extra material.
Adding sections on using other units is something I do consider, but this stuff is quite time-consuming. Stasis, DT drops, reavers, storms all augment your troops, but you could write countless pages on this.
On missile turrets, this is a decision terran takes and there are pros and cons:
- Terran wastes 75 minerals per turret
- Terran wastes a lot of time
- He forces you to fight blind-folded without knowing his exact army size/formation
- He is somewhat protected from zealot or reaver bombs (I don't know how to name it but that trick involves taking fire with zealot then shooting with reaver) but not from shuttle usage diring a large-scale battle - you will just lose the shuttle, but the cargo should be successfully unloaded.
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I am very fond of DTs, I mix them in whenever possible.
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Stasis is pretty simple, get large clumps that wont act as a wall for the rest of the terran army.
With reavers drop a zealot, and then drop a reaver right after and try and hit a clump of tanks.
Works best when your goons engage the Ts army.
Mix in DTs if the center of the map is unbuildable, if it is buildable terran wont need to scan, and you are just throwing away a unit that dies from a few vult hits.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Appendix on reavers added. It's WIP still, so I guess there's still stuff to be said.
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Great guide, thanks a lot, great help to newer players like me 
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This is an excellent guide, thanks
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Yeah that was a pretty decent guide. well done
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curses! my life is becoming more difficult 
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Wow, very nice! I don't wanna see a D toss after this on ICCUP anymore.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Nice guide .
A common mistake I see in PvT (which is not explicitly mentioned in your guide) is where the protoss sends his zealots in, and they are all clumped together into groups. Then when this group hits a mine, the whole group takes damage, and similarly tank splash hits all of them.
So, I think you should mention this mistake explicitly under the part about avoiding splash damage: when your zealots run in, you should try to keep them spread apart to avoid tank and mine splash. For example, it helps to put a handful of your zealots ahead of the rest, so that the splash damage that hits them won't touch the rest of your zealots.
Another trick I like to do is, whenever I have to move somewhere blindly (i.e. without obs to detect mines), I always make sure to send one or two units ahead of the rest, so that if they run into any mines, those units will be the only ones that take damage. Although I guess that's more for a general PvT guide .
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On September 02 2007 23:21 Bill307 wrote:Nice guide . A common mistake I see in PvT (which is not explicitly mentioned in your guide) is where the protoss sends his zealots in, and they are all clumped together into groups. Then when this group hits a mine, the whole group takes damage, and similarly tank splash hits all of them. So, I think you should mention this mistake explicitly under the part about avoiding splash damage: when your zealots run in, you should try to keep them spread apart to avoid tank and mine splash. For example, it helps to put a handful of your zealots ahead of the rest, so that the splash damage that hits them won't touch the rest of your zealots. Another trick I like to do is, whenever I have to move somewhere blindly (i.e. without obs to detect mines), I always make sure to send one or two units ahead of the rest, so that if they run into any mines, those units will be the only ones that take damage. Although I guess that's more for a general PvT guide .
Urgh, I've encountered SO many games when my Zealots clumped (I remember a game vs ilovezil, he was containing me and my Zealots were stuck behind my Dragoons; the Zealots died before the Dragoons -__-;
The tip about having Zealots ahead is sometimes ineffective; what happens if they die before they get there?
Anyways, I enjoyed reading BluzMan's army organization method. :O
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Thank you. I am not really a new player but my weakness is by and large PvT. I bookmarked htis. Thank You
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I like how you write. Very clear and thorough.
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I loved it. Could you show us some replays? Of breaking out a Terran push
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Very cool Bluzman this is now bookmarked : ].
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Very nice guide. I don't even play Toss or Terran except when I feel like doing something weird, and I find this guide very well written and informative.
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I like your guide a lot, however, I don't agree with grouping Dragoons and Zealots separately. I think it's better to group a few units of everything in the same group because as many have mentioned above (as well as your post), Zealots tend to clump a lot during battles. If grouped in the same group, it's more likely that they'll clump due to the "magic box". It's just easier to flank and control if they were grouped with everything else.
That's what I feel anyway.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
There are pros and cons, probably. You might get a more "natural" spread of units this way, but what you lose is the ability to select and control your units after you've engaged. Microing during the battle is also very important. I feel that being able to quickly select the desired units is important, but I guess that your point has it's own merit.
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
Great guide, thanks a lot
Could you upload your UMS map somewhere please ?
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most common Pvt errors :
- not enough goons ( u should have always 3 groups 12 goon minimum when u are near 200) compared to zealots.
- not enough upgrades
( terrans do more and more very fast upgrades and in fact in most of games i see terran usually ends the game with 3-3 when protoss got a slow 2-2-0 or 2-1-0..it should be the contrary) . If terran is 3-3 P with 3-3-3 upgrade should be a must.
- not enough gates :
considering u are not progammer and u dont have enough multitasking skills u may not be able to produce units constantly without queuing AND during battling .So u will need a lot more gates than progamers , If u plan to do massive ground force u should have at least 12 gates and i would say on some maps more than 20 is not abusive.
last mistake (i do often) when u plan a big charge (in a midlle of luna for exemple) it's always better to put your zeallots squads on "wings" of your formation , goons hits vultures and the mines then comes the zealots from right and left to hit tanks. Usually the listake is to mix them between goons or worst under goons , so they will bug with goon "walling" line and be longer to go on tanks.
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Very nice read, thanks. Sums up a lot of the critical ideas vs the push.
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Nice read, should be moved to the recommended thread
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toss +3 armor/shield is simply useless and provides almost no benefit over 3-0-0, this was reiterated many times over, better use the gas for carriers, arbiters, shuttle speed tech, obs upgrades, or hell, even ht. The 3 armor and shield grades cost a total of nearly 1.5k/1.5k and have no effect on damage taken from mines and tanks. Even against vults, it hardly makes any difference.
The only legitimate use for 3 shield is against gols. It might be a nice addition if you go carriers, though I doubt you'll have money for shield + dual core grades (air weapon/armor) + carriers.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
What I love in these arguments is that those who say +3 armor does nothing forget that +3 weapons for terran also don't change the number of hits terran requires to do to kill whatever. Still 3 tank shots for goons, 4 for zealots.
It's all in the splash.
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Well, your argument is correct in the terran case, because the 25%/50% splash damages add up considerably. But the point is that the bonuses for terran are very significant.
It's not like having toss 3 armor / 3 shield somehow cancels out with the terran's 3 attack. Far from it. I'd even say that 3/3 terran vs 3/3/3 p is slightly better (for T) than 2/2 terran vs 2/0/0 toss.
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Actually I exaggerated a bit in that last post. It's actually the other way around, but the difference is very small. let's say that one level of armor/shield grades cancels out roughly 0.4 of the terran's attack grades
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Thanks alot for the help =)
I was on the edge of quitting starcraft today, couse I simply cant handle this.
Ive only played for 2 months, but its really depressing to get owned by terran over and over and over again.
Hopefully this guide will help me, so Ill keep trying.
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you can beat this into the ground and talk in circles for pages upon pages but the fact of the matter is you can only improve w/ practice and trying unique things. Upgrade faster, get ht faster, get arbiters faster. The only thing u can do is learn better timing and micro and that only comes with tons of practice.
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Awesome guide, although now I am late for work. Any sort of advise on HT tactics in breaking pushes would be great to hear
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On September 03 2007 10:41 vstar wrote:I loved it. Could you show us some replays? Of breaking out a Terran push
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Very interesting, even for a terran player. Thanks!
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
UPDATE:
- Updated Beaver appendix with neat pics (^.^)
- Fixed some random typos.
- I will update this thing at least once more ^^
I would also love someone to update the thread title to match the current paradigm.
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EDIT: err didn't notice original date XD my bad nice guide though
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On September 01 2007 10:02 houseurmusic wrote:nice guide would you mind uploading the ums map?
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Calgary25969 Posts
Edited title to follow new standards.
Very nice guide by the way.
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Wow that's great. I'm a big noob, and I didn't know about the flankmove trick in section 5.1
That helps out a TON. I always thought you had to manually micro each individual goon into place to get your guys into a line.
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Wow, this is awesome.
I have a couple of questions:
1. Do most P players not hotkey different units together? The guide says to hotkey goons together and zealots together, and not to mix them. Is this how most players do it, or is this a preference thing?
2. Is a shuttle with zealots considered to be necessary to break a push?
3. Are obs hotkeyed into unit groups or are they just distributed throughout the map and manually controlled as needed? (I often lose obs attack-moving into a push, and so I'm curious how others do it.)
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Bump. Can someone answer my questions? 
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Calgary25969 Posts
1. Both. Do whichever you want.
2. Not necessarily; situational.
3. Both.
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Yo rpf!
1. I usually have a full zealot group, a full goon group and then mixed groups. I think a pair of zealot and goon groups are somewhat necessary so you can move in your zeals close to the tanks. I think it is a preference thing, but I find it easier my way. I mean if you're fast with your mouse, you can double click zeals before going into battle etc. But I prefer doing 1 click click click (into tanks) 2a3a4a and then see if I can micro more with mouse-control.
2. I don't know if it is "necessary" to have a shuttle with zeals, but it is damn helpful. I mean if you stand there being contained/sieged to death and there is no flank option for you whatsoever, then yes, I'd say a shuttle with zeals is essential to breaking the push. Or you have an arbiter with stasis :O
3. With my first 2-3 obs I usually control them manually. If they get more and more I always try to stick one (right click on goon) on my goons and maybe have 1 with my mixed groups at 3~4. But when I put it into a group, as you said, I lose it to attack move mostly. So I'm trying it with stick/manual control.
Hope I could help out. Oh, I'm no pro btw :D
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I think this was my first real contribution on the strategy forum aka. Chill's Domain. I'm so proud, maybe I'll shed a tear....... and rpf come play dota with me
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Thanks.
Alright, so when you're engaging a T push:
1. Have obs positioned to see mines and the push itself
2. Attack-move goons to take first tank volley and deal with mines
3. Run zealots through to the tanks
My biggest problem in PvT, I think, is that when I engage a push I don't always know what to do. I try to put zealots on tanks, but rarely do they make it past the mines, tank shots, and vults, so I end up fighting the vults, and then the tanks get free shots on the remainder of my army.
I still need to work on my unit control.
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United States42154 Posts
Good bump. I somehow missed this the first time around and it was definitely helpful for me.
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Yeah, this was really helpful. I'm glad Chill put all of these threads together.
Anyways, I have another question about PvT, which is about the opening builds.
I usually go range robo, as it's a well-rounded, safe build, but I understand that opening 2gate range is also quite strong. Actually, it's the only build I ever was able to beat Prodigy[x] with. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble finding a good, economical 2gate range build.
I know of the one where you go 15 gate range goon pylon, but you cut probes for a very long time, and unless you're able to do a lot of damage with your initial pressure, you're behind economically.
After doing some stuff offline, I found that you can very easily make your second gate after your second goon (range after first, as usual), but the second gate comes online so late it almost defeats the purpose, in which case I'd default back to my usual 1gate range robo build.
So what's the usual 2gate range build other players use? Do you just cut probes momentarily and throw a gate in somewhere? I've been watching a lot of replays, but I'm seeing a lot of core after zealot builds, so I haven't encountered any actual 2gate range builds. T_T
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I usually only go 2gate range on maps like Longinus which aren't a bitch like Python or anything with a tight ramp for example. Otherwise, as you said, you won't deal enough dmg equal to your cut of economy. But if you somehow manage to get up the ramp, it should be over. So it really depends on your control and the control of your opponent. Hard call, tbh.
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On September 01 2007 07:47 BluzMan wrote:
EDIT #1: When first writing this, I've forgotten to add one essential pre-battle trick that I had in mind. Always, I repeat, always designate goons and zealots to different control groups. They behave so differently in battle that you would never want to have them selected at the same time.
I kind of disagree on this point. This explains why you find splash damage so harsh on your Zealots. I always mix Dragoons with a few Zealots, for instance 9 Dragoons 3 Zealots, and then base my flanking on splitting the control groups. This pretty much auto-spreads Zealots for you, reducing splash damage by a lot and making his Vulture micro harder. Extra Zealots can be kept in seperate groups, to be sent in just as the Mine/Tank fire has been assigned - clumping is not as dangerous for them.
You still need to do a lot of seperate Dragoon/Zealot micro, but I prefer to do this by Ctrl-select. You don't have time to manually spread Zealots all the time.
The by far most important mistake any Protoss can make is to fail at flanking. What you want to do is this. (Never let yourself be fooled into engaging before you have set up a proper flank. You are not trying to defend the middle of Python - let him advance a bit while you fan out.)
- Hotkey control groups of 9Dragoon/3 Zealot, extra Zealots in seperate groups.
- Send each mixed hotkey group to one point on a arc around his push.
- Manually fan out each group, so that no Dragoon is behind of another. Put Zealot groups between-behind mixed groups. Unclump Zealots (not one Dragoon apart, it is really difficult to spread your Zealots too much) and place them among/behind of Dragoons. Make sure there are holes in your Dragoons for Zealots to pass through.
- Attack-move your army, not at the front of his push, put in the middle/back of his push. Else, you groups will meet up in front of his army, your Dragoons will clump and demonstrate crappy pathing while taking insane splash, and you lose.
- While your army is engaging, ctrl-select the most advance zealots and force-move them through his push to pull mines, keep spread, soak Tank damage and force friendly-splash from Tanks and mines.
- Once your armies have clashed, if you have a good Dragoon formation, they need no micro whatsoever. The only thing you need to do is manually unclump Zealots and force them towards his Tank. Generally, you will have 23658792 Zealots clumping around his foremost Tank: select all except for one and move them further into his push, then split them onto different Tanks.
- If you want to be really pro, you need to be building Zealots and sending in reinforcmenets while fighting. If you have been a good boy and pulled him closer to your base before engaging, your reinforcements are close by.
Note:
- You will encounter Tank-heavy, clumped pushes - these call for lots of Zealots. You will also encounter Tank-light, Vulture/mine-heavy pushes with pretty much one lonely Tank here and there. These call for lots of Dragoons. It is often a good idea to just a-move 12 Dragoons towards a Tank if they are very thinly spread: Dragoons can kill them mostly out of range of the rest of his Tanks, while Zealots are forced to bathe in mines and get in range of all of his Tanks, while Vultures will kill Zealots and withdraw to the next Tank.
- Mineclumps which are not protected by at least two Tanks should be engaged by pure Dragoons before your Zealots engage. It is better to take two Tank hits to your Dragoons than to take ten mines on your Zealots.
On philosophy: You are actually never trying to deal damage when breaking a Terran push. It is not a big deal if you are hitting Vultures or Tanks with Dragoons or Zealots - it is all good (as long as they are hitting something instead of getting in eachother's way). Your only job is to force Tank hits onto Zealots, avoid taking splash damage and try to make Terran splash himself.
Note that getting all of your units into range is mostly a matter of flanking - everything else is microing your Zealots.
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On March 06 2008 04:41 rpf wrote:
Yeah, this was really helpful. I'm glad Chill put all of these threads together.
Anyways, I have another question about PvT, which is about the opening builds.
I usually go range robo, as it's a well-rounded, safe build, but I understand that opening 2gate range is also quite strong. Actually, it's the only build I ever was able to beat Prodigy[x] with. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble finding a good, economical 2gate range build.
I know of the one where you go 15 gate range goon pylon, but you cut probes for a very long time, and unless you're able to do a lot of damage with your initial pressure, you're behind economically.
After doing some stuff offline, I found that you can very easily make your second gate after your second goon (range after first, as usual), but the second gate comes online so late it almost defeats the purpose, in which case I'd default back to my usual 1gate range robo build.
So what's the usual 2gate range build other players use? Do you just cut probes momentarily and throw a gate in somewhere? I've been watching a lot of replays, but I'm seeing a lot of core after zealot builds, so I haven't encountered any actual 2gate range builds. T_T
You might be stressing range too much. Cutting probes is not a sin, it is a skill. If it allows you to expand faster, it pays off. That said, there is never any good reason to do excessive probe-cutting with only one Nexus.
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Yeah, I really don't like to cut probes, but in some builds it can beneficial to cut probes momentarily, or even just cut one probe to make room for another goon, etc.
I did some testing to try to figure out a better 2gate range opening for PvT, and this is what I came up with:
Do your usual 1gate range:
8 p
10 gate
12 assim
14 core
15 pylon
17 goon
20 range
Cut probes:
20 gate
20 goon
22 pylon
25 goon, goon
The second gate finishes when the second goon out of the first gate finishes, and even though you cut probes to fit in the second gateway and get the third pylon in early enough so that it finishes when you need it to, I think the lost potential income is worth it, especially since you'd be using a build like this to be aggressive, or at the very least, stop any early-game T timing rushes.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
You're vastly overvalueing the economical effect of cut probes. With gate on 15, you get MANY goons REALLY fast, you will see terran losing SCV's, cutting SCV's to squeeze units, removing them from mining and other stuff that hampers him. Unless you chose that build on a totally unsuitable map (ramp, wall close to ramp), you're pretty much guaranteed to do damage one way or another. Even if he manages to pull an armadillo building bunkers and walking with SCV armies everywhere to block your goons from his tanks, just double expand and your economy will soon be as healthy as ever.
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That's why I always prefer to play "standard." Often times when you cut probes, you absolutely have to succeed in whatever it is you're doing.
It's like if I were to 9/10 or even 10/12 PvZ. If I don't force him to waste larvae on lings, and I allow him to just pump drones, then I've not only failed, but I've allowed myself to fall behind economically.
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I don't think this has been discussed, but I'm unaware of what you would do when a Terran sets up his vultures so they are either:
- Directly beside and behind the tanks.
- Surrounding the tanks on hold position. I think DaZe discussed that this is what he does, because if they are close to the tanks on hold position, they are only in range to hit zealots, so that's what they will do.
My theorycrafting ideas would be that since vultures are not hitting goons, you could go a little more goon reaver and manually target tanks? Seems like it would work with lower numbers of tanks, but with higher numbers you would probably lose them all. I'm asking because when you try to diffuse in this situation, your basically just throwing zealots into vultures that are only able to hit your zealots.
Any help about this?
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
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loved reading it, thanks.
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this guide was usefull, despite i knew most of these themes i really kinda forgot about xploit them , its a very complete guida, to add something, i see most ppl doesnt like to xtasis the front units, i like to do it, but then i run the battle to kill some expo, always leading 3-4 lots separately before mi entire army, this way almost everyterran unseige the mid and rear tanks and go defend his expo, then is when i place some lots , 1 or 2 dts, or HTs, if needed some gons or my new arbiter to kill the tanks frozen, anyway my lack of micro almost always shades my techs and fast thinking t-t
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wow. really nice, Its helped me out as a terran to know what a protoss should be doing
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What a bump o.o
i see most ppl doesnt like to xtasis the front units
The idea is that you don't want to create a wallin for the Terran against your Zealots, and that you want your dragoons to close the attacking distance as fast as possible. You example is kind of confusing me, but in any battle where you're trying to break the Terran's army with your army, stasis priority goes to the largest clump of units and the farthest Tanks.
I hate when I see nooby Protosses attacking groups of tanks without zealots... it just hurts me so bad inside. Not only do Zealots draw fire away from your goons (which are large units and take full damage from Tanks), but they also kick major Tank ass when they're speedy. I mean, there are times when you can do it, but you just wanna smack the person when they lose 12 dragoons and kill one tank.
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i hardly ever even have to face terran armies head-on unless they do very very early push. my favorite is using goons that you have been pumping + shuttle of 1/2 reavers to stop pushes by continually retreating from siege. (scarab outranges unsieged) compliments fast arb build nicely and by this time you should have 4 bases + arb + army and then can begin wrecking havoc with recall. I rarely go face first in PvT and I dont recommend it lol thats my contribution to this
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On July 25 2008 14:44 inertinept wrote:
i hardly ever even have to face terran armies head-on unless they do very very early push. my favorite is using goons that you have been pumping + shuttle of 1/2 reavers to stop pushes by continually retreating from siege. (scarab outranges unsieged) compliments fast arb build nicely and by this time you should have 4 bases + arb + army and then can begin wrecking havoc with recall. I rarely go face first in PvT and I dont recommend it lol thats my contribution to this
Someone tell this to all Protosses! He solved whole pvt!
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On July 25 2008 14:44 inertinept wrote:
i hardly ever even have to face terran armies head-on unless they do very very early push. my favorite is using goons that you have been pumping + shuttle of 1/2 reavers to stop pushes by continually retreating from siege. (scarab outranges unsieged) compliments fast arb build nicely and by this time you should have 4 bases + arb + army and then can begin wrecking havoc with recall. I rarely go face first in PvT and I dont recommend it lol thats my contribution to this
And what are you intending to do, if a Terran decides to waltz into your base and kind of slow-pushes forward? Sooner or later you'll have to face the Terran army in it's full strength.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/5375/rotationdt4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/2537/tanksqy6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/9473/slidefn1.jpg)
