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It seems, every time I play a Terran that timing pushes, I'm not able to keep that 3rd expo or just lose everything - in other words, I get owned +_+.
Without a replay (on the new computer; I will post reps later if i can), I will try to explain how my usual game goes.
I usually start off with 2 gate range, or 2gate range + obs. Now the terran usually FD's, or goes 2factory tank -> expo. Making sure he has that second cc, I put up my first expo while putting up citadel (still on 2 gates, i usually cut dragoons during this time), and get the second expo when money allows. I add gates, get leg speed. I see 4-6 factories, he pushes out and he engages. I lose all my dragoons/zealots, only killing vultures, leaving most of the tanks. Now i either lose the third expo, or he just pushes into my main with mainly vulture reinforcements.
Since, after all, it is a timing push, I've tried just going 1 expo and madly powering, adding gates off that 1 expo, and trying to match the Terran. This doesn't seem that great for me either, as when he pushes out, he takes his second expo, and he's able to add couple more factories.
Any help or insights on my problem will be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance.
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Canada7170 Posts
Are you getting a robo at any point? Because observers should really help in your fight against mines.
Are you getting a Tarchives for storm? It's also very useful.
Without a rep, it's difficult to say, but I'm trying to throw out different tech ideas.
If you post a rep, I'll try to give more insight. Are you transferring them from the other computer or do you need to just get on B.net and play some games?
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When you see him moving out, use your goons to try and engage him before he sieges his tanks. Attack, pick off a tank or 2, and move back. He'll unsiege and keep moving forward. Repeat this and hopefully you'll kill off a few tanks without losing much at all. Then just fully engage him with everything you have, while still macroing of course.
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i'm going to post what gets posted in almost every new strategy thread
sounds like you're getting outplayed
post a rep
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i need to play the games ._.
i just got back and i can't find my replays involving timing pushes -_-;
on another note, if YOU can post replays with timing pushes i'd also greatly appreciate it!
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err first thing you want to remember is not to just engage a battle v the terran if you dont have to....you want to make him seige and unseige as much as possible...but not actually engage in a full-fledged attack until you greatly out-number him...this will not happen if you attack right when he pushes out because he has been building units the whole time you have been doing your 3rd expo+ gates....your first problem is prolly not getting your 3rd expo fast enough i would say so everything is slow....2nd problem is probably your not making sure to build probes non-stop until you see he is about to push out(once you realize he is about to push out cut probes so you can build nothing but units) getting a shuttle with 4 zealots or even dts if your crazy helps a ton...i also feel have 2 shuttles 1 with zealots 1 with reavers is VERY strong v a timing push....but thats just my personal preference...when the terran pushes out you need to have your units right outside his base to slow him down as much as possible...but try to lose as few units as possible like i said early just try to make him seige up and then move back....if he doesnt seige right away i would try to kill all the vults then move back becuz the tanks will kill you...this is just a couple things i can tell you spare of the moment when you post a rep i can be more specific
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On July 26 2007 13:22 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:
i'm going to post what gets posted in almost every new strategy thread
sounds like you're getting outplayed
post a rep
err its not necessarily he is being outplayed becuz in his situation it just sounds like they are both macroing...he may be being outmacroed but that is very different than being outplayed...he may just not understand how to stop a timing push also=-O
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i forgot something also you need to remember that timing pushes sometimes are just to strong to stop at first....and losing an expo IS acceptable....in other words....dont feel you HAVE to use all your units to attack the push just because you will lose an expo...that is why it is good to expand to a different main or an expand that is on a different attack route...it makes the terran have to choose to either attack your main (which isnt what they will do most of the time) or attack your expansion that is away from your main...you want to remember to move all the probes out of this base before they attack if you see that you cant stop there push so you lose as little as possible (a nexus is only 400 but losing 12-15 probes with it is much more costly)...at this point you should be macroing from 7-9 gates and a decision comes for you to either counter while they attack your base ( while you expand to a different location) or get ready to flank there push when they try to move it back to there base
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hopefully i helped you out a little bit
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i play my friend a lot and usually he just 1fact FE(no matter what map) and sometimes he just does these 6marine 4vult 2 tank pushes. and sometimes he would bring 5-6 scv's too. what i noticed about timing pushes is you need to scout constantly, and engage him when he goes to your base, if hes planting mines catch those vults etc. you should already have 3-4 gates making and a citadel. the issue is, do NOT let him push you inside of your base, because then itd be pretty much over. i might have a couple of reps on my comp on beating this. PM me.
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On July 26 2007 13:37 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
i forgot something also you need to remember that timing pushes sometimes are just to strong to stop at first....and losing an expo IS acceptable....in other words....dont feel you HAVE to use all your units to attack the push just because you will lose an expo...that is why it is good to expand to a different main or an expand that is on a different attack route...it makes the terran have to choose to either attack your main (which isnt what they will do most of the time) or attack your expansion that is away from your main...you want to remember to move all the probes out of this base before they attack if you see that you cant stop there push so you lose as little as possible (a nexus is only 400 but losing 12-15 probes with it is much more costly)...at this point you should be macroing from 7-9 gates and a decision comes for you to either counter while they attack your base ( while you expand to a different location) or get ready to flank there push when they try to move it back to there base
Follow not in the footsteps of the carlo....
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United States20661 Posts
On July 26 2007 13:28 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2007 13:22 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:
i'm going to post what gets posted in almost every new strategy thread
sounds like you're getting outplayed
post a rep err its not necessarily he is being outplayed becuz in his situation it just sounds like they are both macroing...he may be being outmacroed but that is very different than being outplayed...he may just not understand how to stop a timing push also=-O
I fail to see how being outmacroed =/= being outplayed. You can be outplayed in many ways; I consider losing the macro war to be one of them..?
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On July 26 2007 13:28 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2007 13:22 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:
i'm going to post what gets posted in almost every new strategy thread
sounds like you're getting outplayed
post a rep err its not necessarily he is being outplayed becuz in his situation it just sounds like they are both macroing...he may be being outmacroed but that is very different than being outplayed...he may just not understand how to stop a timing push also=-O
Macroing isn't considered PLAYING?! If he can't stop a timing push, I would consider that being outplayed.
On July 26 2007 13:37 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
i forgot something also you need to remember that timing pushes sometimes are just to strong to stop at first....and losing an expo IS acceptable....in other words....dont feel you HAVE to use all your units to attack the push just because you will lose an expo...that is why it is good to expand to a different main or an expand that is on a different attack route...it makes the terran have to choose to either attack your main (which isnt what they will do most of the time) or attack your expansion that is away from your main...you want to remember to move all the probes out of this base before they attack if you see that you cant stop there push so you lose as little as possible (a nexus is only 400 but losing 12-15 probes with it is much more costly)...at this point you should be macroing from 7-9 gates and a decision comes for you to either counter while they attack your base ( while you expand to a different location) or get ready to flank there push when they try to move it back to there base
No, losing an expansion to a timing push is not acceptable.
A nexus is only 400, true, but it also costs a long time to build as well as being unable to mine from that particular area during that time. You make it sound so trivial, losing a nexus.
If I was attacking an expansion and faced with two choices: killing the nexus or killing lots of probes, I'd definitely go for killing the nexus.
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if you know he is going FD, go ahead and double expo after you stop the push. he won't be able to do anything in the next 2 minutes with 1 factory. then get robo/obs and citadel, and add 4 gates. if he cuts scvs, you cut probes. you''ll be able to stop his "timing push" ez.
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On July 26 2007 13:14 dO_ov wrote:
It seems, every time I play a Terran that timing pushes, I'm not able to keep that 3rd expo or just lose everything - in other words, I get owned +_+.
Without a replay (on the new computer; I will post reps later if i can), I will try to explain how my usual game goes.
I usually start off with 2 gate range, or 2gate range + obs. Now the terran usually FD's, or goes 2factory tank -> expo. Making sure he has that second cc, I put up my first expo while putting up citadel (still on 2 gates, i usually cut dragoons during this time), and get the second expo when money allows. I add gates, get leg speed. I see 4-6 factories, he pushes out and he engages. I lose all my dragoons/zealots, only killing vultures, leaving most of the tanks. Now i either lose the third expo, or he just pushes into my main with mainly vulture reinforcements.
Since, after all, it is a timing push, I've tried just going 1 expo and madly powering, adding gates off that 1 expo, and trying to match the Terran. This doesn't seem that great for me either, as when he pushes out, he takes his second expo, and he's able to add couple more factories.
Any help or insights on my problem will be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance.
i don't think you need citadel that early, usually forge/citadel timing is after 3rd nex
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Maybe a shuttle would help (after obs maybe?)
If ur micro is ok, you could try to contain him at his choke point, then slowly move back to your nat. Manually target the vult first, then the tank, then rines/scv.
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pardon my ignorance but what exactly is the definition of a timing push? i see the phrase thrown around a lot since i returned to starcraft but i'm still pretty fuzzy as to what a timing push looks like. i've been afraid to post a thread asking because it seems like i'm bound to get flamed for asking such a noob question  google and the search function doesn't seem to help much because it seems like everyone assumes you know what it means
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Dont cut goons, get a citdel off 2 gate, then get a nexus... duh?
Why did no one mention this to him? Either DT drop +add gates or skip the citadel or get increase gates and add in a shuttle before expanding if you are gonna do that.
Since you already have obs/robo,
you can go reaver (fe fast expanded didn't he? force him to make turrets and slow down his macro) while expanding.
Increase gates add in a shuttle, and thin him down quick a little before expanding again. The more tanks a terran gathers, the power increases dramatically.
- The short answer is, get gateways faster and make more units.
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From what I'm reading, you're not getting your 3rd expo fast enough and then he runs you over right after you get your 3rd expo up. If you go 2 gate -> obs and he FEs, you need to either damage him and slow him down with your superior tech (expand into reaver or something) or double expand to counter. Expanding only once yourself isn't going to put you on the same foothold as him, especially if you didn't put any pressure on him, you need to be up on expos.
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On July 26 2007 16:49 Zanno wrote:pardon my ignorance but what exactly is the definition of a timing push? i see the phrase thrown around a lot since i returned to starcraft but i'm still pretty fuzzy as to what a timing push looks like. i've been afraid to post a thread asking because it seems like i'm bound to get flamed for asking such a noob question google and the search function doesn't seem to help much because it seems like everyone assumes you know what it means
As I understand it, a timing push is where you build your game plan around attacking at a certain time, sacrificing some SCV production/expansions in order to have maximum attacking power at that point. Differs from the "standard" play where a terran will just get 3 or 4 bases and go for 200/200 (a "macro war").
I guess your standard timing push in TvP is 4 facs ASAP after taking your natural against a double-expanding toss, or 5/6 facs building to presumably 120+ supply before moving out and kicking ass. The former gives toss less time to react, while the latter will just give you a bigger army. I generally follow my 4-fac push with a 3rd base pretty quick regardless of the outcome, while 6 fac play I'll do my best to end it on two bases. Better Terrans may be able to give a more accurate explanation 
Edit: I guess the reasoning behind it is that you make the most of having a stronger production and weaker economy vs his stronger economy and weaker production by massing up, then hit him just before it's about to switch to him having a stronger economy AND stronger production (since this will be the point where you have the biggest army relative to his). That's my take on it anyway.
Edit2: Nada's 2fac is another interesting example, although that falls more under the category of "timing rush." It differs from the average 2fac build by hitting somewhat later, but with a larger and better-equipped army. Effective against a fast-expanding toss from what I've seen.
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Im not a toss but you might want to cut some probes for units after your expo to stop the push. And evenly distrubute probes to your nexuses. And a fast push really gets hurt by zeal bombs. Cause they wont have as much turrets. The thing i hate the most when i push out our those obs. They just dodge you and wait for the moment where you're unsieged and flank.
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On July 26 2007 13:26 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
err first thing you want to remember is not to just engage a battle v the terran if you dont have to....you want to make him seige and unseige as much as possible...but not actually engage in a full-fledged attack until you greatly out-number him...this will not happen if you attack right when he pushes out because he has been building units the whole time you have been doing your 3rd expo+ gates....your first problem is prolly not getting your 3rd expo fast enough i would say so everything is slow....2nd problem is probably your not making sure to build probes non-stop until you see he is about to push out(once you realize he is about to push out cut probes so you can build nothing but units) getting a shuttle with 4 zealots or even dts if your crazy helps a ton...i also feel have 2 shuttles 1 with zealots 1 with reavers is VERY strong v a timing push....but thats just my personal preference...when the terran pushes out you need to have your units right outside his base to slow him down as much as possible...but try to lose as few units as possible like i said early just try to make him seige up and then move back....if he doesnt seige right away i would try to kill all the vults then move back becuz the tanks will kill you...this is just a couple things i can tell you spare of the moment when you post a rep i can be more specific
Enough said This is perfect.
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Your macro is probably a huge problem. Though you may have those expos, I bet they are not fast enough or timed incorrectly or not enough probes or you're not using up the money correctly etc etc. Another thing is you have to slow down terran because he must siege if he wants to move forward with his timing push as a straight out attack would not be as good, so you'll want to get in some shots with your goons when hes not sieged, and when he sieges move your goons back. He'll have to move forward again and this is your chance to get in some more shots, then repeat etc.
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D-R-O-P
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I'm serious. They can seriously slow him down, and you can also use them to delay his push by quite awhile if you are careful about scans.
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On July 26 2007 23:51 evanthebouncy! wrote:
D-R-O-P
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I'm serious. They can seriously slow him down, and you can also use them to delay his push by quite awhile if you are careful about scans.
It's true I delayed a terran once and kept killing his pushes for 20 minutes by doing this.
EDIT: Needless to say I ended up losing that game but had fun
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D-R-O-P
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" wtf does this map mean?
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On July 27 2007 04:09 Slayer91 wrote:
D-R-O-P
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" wtf does this map mean?
"DT DROP PWNZ" ?
oO;
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imo dt drop is dumb to do with your double expand, if they get a scanner you are raped, its better to just macro goon zeal and build a shuttle, protosses nowadays have much better macro so unless the terran micros great or its timed within like a 30second window or the protoss just scouts HORRIBLY its difficult to win like that, believe me ive been doing that for like 5 years and its the reason my tvp is bad =)
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On July 26 2007 14:22 WhatisProtoss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2007 13:28 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:On July 26 2007 13:22 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:
i'm going to post what gets posted in almost every new strategy thread
sounds like you're getting outplayed
post a rep err its not necessarily he is being outplayed becuz in his situation it just sounds like they are both macroing...he may be being outmacroed but that is very different than being outplayed...he may just not understand how to stop a timing push also=-O Macroing isn't considered PLAYING?! If he can't stop a timing push, I would consider that being outplayed. Show nested quote +On July 26 2007 13:37 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
i forgot something also you need to remember that timing pushes sometimes are just to strong to stop at first....and losing an expo IS acceptable....in other words....dont feel you HAVE to use all your units to attack the push just because you will lose an expo...that is why it is good to expand to a different main or an expand that is on a different attack route...it makes the terran have to choose to either attack your main (which isnt what they will do most of the time) or attack your expansion that is away from your main...you want to remember to move all the probes out of this base before they attack if you see that you cant stop there push so you lose as little as possible (a nexus is only 400 but losing 12-15 probes with it is much more costly)...at this point you should be macroing from 7-9 gates and a decision comes for you to either counter while they attack your base ( while you expand to a different location) or get ready to flank there push when they try to move it back to there base No, losing an expansion to a timing push is not acceptable. A nexus is only 400, true, but it also costs a long time to build as well as being unable to mine from that particular area during that time. You make it sound so trivial, losing a nexus. If I was attacking an expansion and faced with two choices: killing the nexus or killing lots of probes, I'd definitely go for killing the nexus.
this is the dumbest thing ever...okay you know he has more units than you and you know your going to lose if you engage his army but just because he is attacking your nexus you attack?....wtf kinda logic is that....sometimes there are acceptable losses to not lose the game...losing a nexus being one of them...your right its not trivial but its not the end of the game you still have 2 mining bases and those extra minerals you started gathering from the third....as long as you start another within a certain amount of time your not dead
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True, but from that point, unless you demolish the Terran economy, you know 3-4 minutes later, you yourself are dead anyways....
And gettin probes out safely is really ... largely luck dependant and really hard.
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the whole point of a timing push is just that - timing. he is trying to exploit when you have a weak point in your macro because you are adding an extra base, or extra gateways, or tech. discover how your speed in tech is and if it is too fast then maybe you want to consider just pumping units for a bit before teching, or making changes of that sort.
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well said sirs o_O.
you've all been a great help in one way or another;;
so there are many ways to delay or block the push. but i'm afraid, that during or after (immediately after) his push, he gets his 3rd expo, safely, matching my expo ratio from 2 to 2 (IF i'm able to keep that 3rd expo - rare for me i'm afraid =/). I'm not sure if that is the whole point of t he timing push, as I see it somewhat like what P does when he FE's against Zerg, and as he pushes out, he grabs his second expo. The terran after his FE, can decide to end it with 6 as someone said, or do a slightly quicker timing push, while getting that second expo. So, the only real way to play against the Terran is to delay or break that push so that I dont lose my second expo? That means I will need to adjust like many of you asid, doesn't it?
unless I've just answered my own problem (adjusting to his timing push), can anyone further explain this? And this adjusting, would it be something like, cutting probes from all nexus for added unit count and gateawys?
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to stop him from taking his 3rd expo if you realize he is doing this...just counter attack while he attacks your expo, you will want to attack his building expand then attack his main if you think you have enough units to do damage
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Quick question: What is a FD and what is a timing rush?
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United States24709 Posts
On July 28 2007 01:18 blagoonga123 wrote:
Quick question: What is a FD and what is a timing rush?
FD is 'Fake Double' which is basically a 1 factory fast expand build. I think a timing rush is one of the tvp rush builds that is a bit later than joyo/gundam etc but I could be wrong.
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Its used to kill a toss who went triple nexus before their eco kicks in. Theres some games of it like like i remember Boxer vs Pusan on r-point. And Flash uses it alot.
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On July 28 2007 01:18 blagoonga123 wrote:
Quick question: What is a FD and what is a timing rush?
It\'s basically a 1 Factory build with 4-5 Marines, 1 Tank, and 1 Vulture (usually lags behind for a little bit while it lays one or two Mines near your base and then catching up with your Marines/Tanks). Stands for \"Fake Double,\" as mentioned before because it uhh ... looks like you have two Factories -__- (due to the Vulture AND the Tank).
Timing push is just when you attack during the weak point of a build; I really have no experience here; I just fight fight fight when the Terran decides to move out and then demolish his push -_-
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On July 28 2007 02:03 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Its used to kill a toss who went triple nexus before their eco kicks in. Theres some games of it like like i remember Boxer vs Pusan on r-point. And Flash uses it alot.
Just thinking; is there a timing rush for Protoss? I remember hearing the commentators at Gom MSL 1, Light vs Bisu game 2 where Bisu demolishes Light\'s push (although that one Mine did a little damage) and Bisu grabs 6 Dragoons and an Observer, sidles along the right side of the map and then hits the Terran hard since he expo\'ed after the FD. Would this be considered a \"timing rush\" or is this just a \"swift counterattack\"?
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On July 27 2007 11:43 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
to stop him from taking his 3rd expo if you realize he is doing this...just counter attack while he attacks your expo, you will want to attack his building expand then attack his main if you think you have enough units to do damage
counter = pincer = death?
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i still haven't been able to play much due to the fact that i couldn't go on sc lately ;; i appreciate the help as always
if anyone would like to help me practice pvt, and help me point out some of the things i'm doing wrong in pvt, it'd also be a great help. i tried playing the terrans on iccup twice, once just to get m&m rushed, and second to play against some weird drop kind of build -_-;; so no timing pushes yet.
if you'd like to play PM me!! we can hamachi or do something =)
anyway thx everyon~
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I'm also very troubled by this, since I haven't done PvT for that long. (Used to be 100% Terran, i've been doing pvt since wgtour beta started)
I usually get around that with early reaver harass etc.. but it's not a 100% safe way to do it, I have yet to figure out how I'm supposed to double-nex into macro mode without getting owned
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On July 28 2007 11:16 Equinox_kr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2007 02:03 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Its used to kill a toss who went triple nexus before their eco kicks in. Theres some games of it like like i remember Boxer vs Pusan on r-point. And Flash uses it alot. Just thinking; is there a timing rush for Protoss? I remember hearing the commentators at Gom MSL 1, Light vs Bisu game 2 where Bisu demolishes Light\'s push (although that one Mine did a little damage) and Bisu grabs 6 Dragoons and an Observer, sidles along the right side of the map and then hits the Terran hard since he expo\'ed after the FD. Would this be considered a \"timing rush\" or is this just a \"swift counterattack\"?
Counterattack
The only timing rush i can think of is going 2 gate range block fd rush than go like 4-5 gate speed lot to counter terran's fe cause he'll have 1-2 vultures at most with a few tanks and barely any mines. I remember pusan/anytime used it on rov. And the other timing rush i think is bulldog. Using early zeal bombs to kill fe. But im a bad player so im probably wrong.
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I think there's a nice build that can catch many FD off guard
I tried this build a couple of times, and i haven't haad much success against early vulture heavy terrans (2fact vultures or such)
the P proceeds normally, then after killing the scv inside your base, the p puts up a citadel asap, with +2 gates or so, meaning you have 3-4 gates like ilikestarcraft said. from then on, you just mass zealots +_+; with 1-2goon for defense. for some reason, when the opponents FD, they seem to come to me right around when the leg speed finishes. send the 1-2 goons ahead then just go all in with those zealots x_x i found it surprisingly effective
anyway, this timing pushing things, is the only way to stop it is slowing him down through drops and making him siege/unsiege? can you not overpower him by the time he comes out? the terrans i face usually come between 11-13 minute mark, and always tend to catch me off guard before my 2expo macro kicks in.
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Best way for you would be Shuttle+dt. It stops all kinds of timing pushes.
But drop only a templar at time, so he depleats all his scans.
Generally common mistake when facing early push is making too many zealots or legs too soon.
All you need is many goons, and to slow his push.
But a better terran won't be fooled to siege all his tanks, only a few and proceed quickly.
Then you need this shuttle of zealots or dt to compensate.
Meanwhile you make those necessary zealots and you know the ratio vult:tank so you know exactly how many.
Another good thing to remember is to make extra gateways - I find it useful since if you forget to macro properly while fighting, it will compensate, just don't forget to have enough psi.
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I always find it easier to just *not take* that 2nd expo. I'm slow and lazy so it suits me better to match his economy, have like 5-7 gates and then lay down the smash when he tries to move out - whether to execute an early push/contain or take another base. Now I can expand safely with a decent lead at this point.
I dunno, I find this much safer than just taking the 3rd base 'by default', especially when the success of such can depend so much on starting locations, distances, etc.
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On July 29 2007 11:23 Flaccid wrote:
I always find it easier to just *not take* that 2nd expo. I'm slow and lazy so it suits me better to match his economy, have like 5-7 gates and then lay down the smash when he tries to move out - whether to execute an early push/contain or take another base. Now I can expand safely with a decent lead at this point.
I dunno, I find this much safer than just taking the 3rd base 'by default', especially when the success of such can depend so much on starting locations, distances, etc.
Thing is you really need that 3rd base or hurt his economy - like Reaver drop after expand or some kind of abuse.
Or else He will overexpand or overmass you with sheer numbers.
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On July 29 2007 15:14 LastWish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2007 11:23 Flaccid wrote:
I always find it easier to just *not take* that 2nd expo. I'm slow and lazy so it suits me better to match his economy, have like 5-7 gates and then lay down the smash when he tries to move out - whether to execute an early push/contain or take another base. Now I can expand safely with a decent lead at this point.
I dunno, I find this much safer than just taking the 3rd base 'by default', especially when the success of such can depend so much on starting locations, distances, etc.
Thing is you really need that 3rd base or hurt his economy - like Reaver drop after expand or some kind of abuse. Or else He will overexpand or overmass you with sheer numbers.
But you have to remember the X-Factor, which is, in a nutshell, that I am a substantially better person and marginally more handsome than whoever I happen to be playing at the time.
Of course you're right. HT raids and the like are expected if you're holding off on the expo.
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EPT
