EPTEdit: Is there any ZvR build that is good against all 3 races? I'm thinking maybe 11/12 pool but not sure.
Beating Random
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Edit: Is there any ZvR build that is good against all 3 races? I'm thinking maybe 11/12 pool but not sure. | ||
|
WGT-Baal
France3413 Posts
Downside on large maps if you dont scout your opponent quickly you sorta have to go gas fairly soon after the pool in case it s a zvz. | ||
|
bisufans~
9 Posts
| ||
|
Optimate
249 Posts
| ||
|
Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
| ||
|
BlueStar
Bulgaria1168 Posts
Don't pressure yourself so much, enjoy the game. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28706 Posts
You can do a baku early scout if you are the better player but I think just alternating between 9pools or overpools or 12pools or 12h is the best. Then you accept the occasional 12h loss against a zerg who pooled before lord and you accept the occasional disadvantage vs terran when you overpooled. If you're the type of guy who can't handle any volatility then I guess it sucks, but as a random player I'm similarly incapable of getting a consistent BO advantage vs z. (This differs from playing rvt for example, where as a zerg I can get away with a super late pool due to how unlikely it is that t went rax before depot.) | ||
|
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On September 09 2020 02:36 Liquid`Drone wrote: Zerg can do whatever. Regardless of what you do, you sometimes get fucked over, but playing random vs zerg isn't really that good either because the random player likewise has no idea what they are gonna be up to. A lot of zergs go 5pool against random, which means random vs zerg suddenly has to factor that into their builds. You can do a baku early scout if you are the better player but I think just alternating between 9pools or overpools or 12pools or 12h is the best. Then you accept the occasional 12h loss against a zerg who pooled before lord and you accept the occasional disadvantage vs terran when you overpooled. If you're the type of guy who can't handle any volatility then I guess it sucks, but as a random player I'm similarly incapable of getting a consistent BO advantage vs z. (This differs from playing rvt for example, where as a zerg I can get away with a super late pool due to how unlikely it is that t went rax before depot.) I also wonder a lot about when I should get gas if I 9 pool against random because getting gas too quick against T/P is bad but getting it too late is bad against Z. When I 12 pool and get quick gas, that's good against Z, okay against T, but bad against P. It just feels like every build zerg can do against random is really bad 1/3 of the time and sub-optimal another 1/3 of the time. I know that's probably kinda similar to how it feels to play standard PvP or ZvZ but my dislike of volatility is why I usually do 2 gate PvP; It can do well against any other PvP build at my level at least. That's also why I used to do mass hydra ZvZ before I realized it was not good enough beyond 1800+ mmr level. | ||
|
Q~Bert
United States663 Posts
You need to know if you're facing a zerg asap because regardless you will either be behind on tech or economy unless they 12 pool as well which no random zerg ever does. | ||
|
EndingLife
United States1598 Posts
| ||
|
TelecoM
United States10682 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28706 Posts
But let's look at those variables; Opponent got zerg : 33% Opponent went 9pool speed from random zerg: I dunno but no more than 25%? I never do that myself because then I force myself to ling allin vs 1 gate core inbase and I feel pretty bad against 2 gate openings - both being pretty common for PvR Last scouted opponent : 33% so then we're basically at around 3%, or once every 30+ games, where that scenario happens. When you are up against random, you choose whatever screws you over the least frequently, you can't actually deal with everything. Faring poorly against protoss is a better reason to not go forward gate than faring poorly against 9pool speed when last scouting is. To be honest I think overall the best build pvr is 10 12, although it prolly also depends on what style you are best at playing. But _for sure_ 10 12 is the build order that is least likely to leave you immediately dead or super disadvantaged. (I think the only really bad scenario is last scouting a terran who wallined, but that, again, is really not common to run into. ) | ||
|
TelecoM
United States10682 Posts
| ||
|
EndingLife
United States1598 Posts
On September 22 2020 11:52 TelecoM wrote: I also have the most success with 10/12 gate and then adjusting accordingly as well, although I have been trying more 1gate tech with constant zealot pump to be safe. For you (Protoss main) to find out the most viable opening for PvR, I think it comes down to which race you're most comfortable being at a disadvantage against. Which is easier for you to pull off vs random players in general, 1 gate tech vs zerg or 2gate late tech vs terran? I find the range and obs timing vs terran far more important than the opening choice vs zerg, as you're on 1 base vs zerg with either opening. 10/12 is surely the safest opening when facing random but I still prefer 1g tech to 10/12 gate vs random. As Drone mentioned above, a lot of it comes down to which style you're best at playing. | ||
|
TelecoM
United States10682 Posts
| ||
|
Optimate
249 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28706 Posts
Some terran builds get ever so slightly delayed because of faster scouting and more initial marine production, but it's really nothing too extreme. I imagine Light would certainly rather face flash's random zerg than his picked terran - but then I also picture giving Flash an ever so slight build order advantage in tvt is something he'd rather not do. | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
That said, I treat v Random in a few ways. Sometimes, I will just assume they are zerg, 9pool-gas or overpool-gas. Most times I overpool-drone scout. If I do the gasless overpool-11hat at expo and then find out they are zerg, I am going to place a third hat in main, gas as soon as it is placed and pure ling forever(pull drones from gas fast or you will not be able to afford lings. If they did a 9pool -> lair-> spire with no lingspeed and few lings, I start moving across the map early and try and cause as many trades as possible to gain a huge larva advantage. Making 1 hat muta just too slow. If I do gasless overpool-11hat at expo and find out they are terran, you can do very fast muta after 6 lings or you can go fast gas -> lingspeed and place a third hat and ling flood, this is my response to scouting a fast factory + expo build. Or you can go into a 3 hat build where you most likely will have to sunken wall vs marines. I use the overpool to deny them my ramp. Let them buy a scanner to figure out 2 hat or 3 hat or lurker or muta. If they are toss and I do overpool-11 hat at expo, if there probe arrives before my hat is placed, I assume 1gate expo, and fight probe with drone with full force, and batch lings - 6 then 2 and 2. 6 foward to enemy, 4 near ramp to block scout and catch flanking zealot. From there 3 hat at expo vs expo or 3rd hat at nat vs 1gate in main or 2 gate. Toss will be able to cut some serious edges, so you will normally need a den, you will not get get scourge out before losing 2-3 overlords. If probe arrives after my hat is placed, I assume proxy gate or 2 gate and try and get a sunken down and hold, than 3 hat den-lair -4th hat at expo when he slow zealot production to expo or tech or add gateways. If you open overpool-speed and they are terran, you can cancel speed at any time and go into a very fast and very poor 2 hat muta or a less poor but not rich 2 hat lurker. If you overpool speed and they are going factory, you can let the speed upgrade finish and just bamboozle him with lings. Overpool-speed vs toss can go so well or so bad. Sometimes, lings get in and you just wreck them. Other times they defend or deflect so well, that you must work really hard to go to a middlegame with a fighting chance. I think part of playing vs random is ... feeling a little random yourself, being a little extra willing to aim for the head. If you let random make you feel 'off your game' or unprepared, I think the random player gains more than getting to choose a race-specific optimzed build. Again, I am significantly worse than others in this thread (mmr 1900 and falling) | ||
|
XenOsky
Chile2284 Posts
| ||
|
g0rynich
Russian Federation139 Posts
General 12h with 9drone scout is very strong. In zvz you have later lair but very good eco. Fair build in case zvp zvt. Pool 12 with 9 drone scout. Fair vs any zvrace. You dont die vs z who is pool9 but you are behind vs t. Pool 9 withot gas - fair vs all but could be bad vs terran with early scout and force you sometimes to play hydra zvz. Choose a balanced mix of these | ||
|
fearthequeen
United States788 Posts
On maps like Sylphid and other shorter rush distance maps i would recommend trying 9pool (speed and no speed are both options). Larger maps mix in 12H with drone scouting center first. Liquid.Drone nailed it - there's just built in volatility with this MU. | ||
| ||
