EPTPotential late game monster zerg ZvP or just dumb? - Page 2
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TelecoM
United States10700 Posts
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Jealous
10296 Posts
On July 03 2020 22:10 JonttuTonttu wrote: Gotcha, do I just search for it from Liquipedia? Is there any specific name for that game? Use the TLPD on the sidebar like so... https://tl.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=175&part=games&vs=211&league=any&map=any&from_year=2005&from_month=11&from_day=25&to_year=2012&to_month=8&to_day=26&action=Update The game I'm suggesting is on Athena 2, click the orange + to get to the VOD. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On July 04 2020 02:31 TelecoM wrote: As a Zerg, you basically play the entirety of the game trying to ensure Protoss is never able to get to this point lol Completely agree. Basically this scenario would never really happen. Unless by some miracle the game was soooo close that it somehow ended up this way. That's just nonsense theory craft to be honest though. Unless the zerg was intentionally aiming for this outcome(which would strongly disfavor them) it would never happen. They would either win or lose well before this ever happened. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On July 04 2020 18:46 Sirris wrote: Completely agree. Basically this scenario would never really happen. Unless by some miracle the game was soooo close that it somehow ended up this way. That's just nonsense theory craft to be honest though. Unless the zerg was intentionally aiming for this outcome(which would strongly disfavor them) it would never happen. They would either win or lose well before this ever happened. i've seen something like what he described (except with queen, guardian, hydra, ling, lurker, defiler vs archon, dark archon, ht, reaver, sair) happen quite a few times. Not very common but probably something like 1-2% of the time. I guess it's a consolation prize to compensate for the natural zvp imbalance for most of the game. | ||
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
On July 04 2020 04:10 Jealous wrote: Use the TLPD on the sidebar like so... https://tl.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=175&part=games&vs=211&league=any&map=any&from_year=2005&from_month=11&from_day=25&to_year=2012&to_month=8&to_day=26&action=Update The game I'm suggesting is on Athena 2, click the orange + to get to the VOD. Thanks. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28778 Posts
I've had a whole lot of success with late game transition into queen+guardian against protoss that goes into mass archon reaver and stops building dragoons and when it's a bit of a stalemate, with zerg having established bases that p can't attack into with ease. parasite archons+reavers, mass broodling templars and ensnare the archons before attacking with guardians. it is true that p can theoretically counter with feedback, especially if it's such a stalemate that p only has to focus on one base, but if you have the parasite down then you can come in from an angle where they'll normally have a very hard time feedbacking fast enough. (While if a queen dies while casting broodling this results in the broodling not landing, feedback actually has to be used before the broodling is cast for it to kill the queen (unless the queen had very low hp). I think this is a transition that has potential to work on the pro level, too, even if I haven't really ever seen it utilized. It's highly game specific though, certainly doesn't work if protoss still has a dragoon army, but for the games where they entirely transition out of goons due to fighting vs ling defiler, the guardian+queen combo is fantastic. | ||
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
On July 05 2020 23:13 Liquid`Drone wrote: mass ultra is a great way for zerg to throw a game against late game protoss. they get absolutely slaughtered for cost vs the archon ht reaver combo. I've had a whole lot of success with late game transition into queen+guardian against protoss that goes into mass archon reaver and stops building dragoons and when it's a bit of a stalemate, with zerg having established bases that p can't attack into with ease. parasite archons+reavers, mass broodling templars and ensnare the archons before attacking with guardians. it is true that p can theoretically counter with feedback, especially if it's such a stalemate that p only has to focus on one base, but if you have the parasite down then you can come in from an angle where they'll normally have a very hard time feedbacking fast enough. (While if a queen dies while casting broodling this results in the broodling not landing, feedback actually has to be used before the broodling is cast for it to kill the queen (unless the queen had very low hp). I think this is a transition that has potential to work on the pro level, too, even if I haven't really ever seen it utilized. It's highly game specific though, certainly doesn't work if protoss still has a dragoon army, but for the games where they entirely transition out of goons due to fighting vs ling defiler, the guardian+queen combo is fantastic. Good point, perhaps map design with bigger maps where the distance between (later) expos is greater would stretch Protoss forces to such an extent that Zerg can create openings where he can counter different kinds of weak points that the Protoss gets, such as for example High Templars that can't support the combat units, High Templars that are separated from the Dark Archons allowing Broodling use or losing a base because the Protoss would rather move the army as one group or "ball" between the expansions to defend them in order to not lose the army or important elements in the army. | ||
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Jealous
10296 Posts
EDIT: OP, there really is no reason to make maps favor Zerg vs. Protoss given that it is probably the most favorable MU out there. | ||
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
On July 06 2020 11:01 Jealous wrote: In general I feel like Zerg's main strength is actually the fact that they don't need a death ball army. It is much better to counter the Protoss composition out on the field and force them to change said composition, then go for what counters that composition, etc. etc. Until Protoss runs out of gas. For example, against a heavy Archon composition, you switch into Hydra to lower their Archon count, then switch into Ultra+Ling once the numbers are down. It's almost never about having a 200/200 that can outright beat a Protoss 200/200 in open space IMO. EDIT: OP, there really is no reason to make maps favor Zerg vs. Protoss given that it is probably the most favorable MU out there. Yea I'm not questioning better players' understanding of ZvP matchup balance in general. I am merely suggesting that maps that would increase the distance between later expansions such as from the 4th or 5th expo onwards could maybe favor Z in ZvP and P in PvT slightly more. Hell, as the consensus seems to be that Z is generally stronger than P up until late game, perhaps maps could even favor P a little more early on. | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece722 Posts
I hotkey 8 groups of units, each of which approximately includes 1 ultra, 1 overlord, 4 hydra and 6 zerglings. I spread those into a semi circle, and when P comes out I send first a lot of random army from my bases, since they take more time to reach. Then I move my 8 groups around and behind the P army. This way units don't clump as much, and if they do, they will be more spread due to army composition. Overlord in group is for detection when idle, and also absorbs firepower. This worked extremely well at maps with a lot of space, like python. Obstacles and narrow paths make it harder, as they protect the P army and clump the units. A full group of lurkers in this flank maneuver will make it much stronger, but it ups the difficulty level. This move must be done accurately, esle z units just melt few by few. | ||
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Piste
6183 Posts
Only attack the protoss army head on when you are confident that its not a waste. Even if you cant finish off the whole protoss army at once, it can still be a winning move as it opens up possibilities to attack expansions with the faster reinforcements while the protoss is forced to save his tech units and wait for his reinforcements. Also keep track of his bases' mineral lines, since toss will mine them empty way before the zerg. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
Your unit composition will still matter for the sake of efficiency, but you should NOT be building ultralisks if your opponent has certain unit compositions, such as zealot/archon/reaver or mass carriers (duh). In fact, your best late-game options are to attack your opponent's production or tech, or target their new bases. There is no reason to attack into a superior army if it is not threatening you. If you must attack, it usually will be because their army is headed into one of your bases. That base should have sunken colonies, lurkers, defilers, spore colonies, and preferably, a nydus canal. You want to hit them with as much plague as possible, and send in a lot of hydralisks and zerglings. If possible, pick off their shuttles with either hydras or scourge. While attacking, you need to be macroing more units, so that when your first wave dies, the second wave will be able to do more damage. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
One of the units that he utilizes a lot is the speed shuttle, not only offensively (mainly for HT harassment) but also defensively (carrying reavers to protect key locations). Since protoss armies are notoriously slow compared to zerg armies, this functions as a great equalizer, since he can minimize the amount of static defense needed per expansion, which reduces cost while increasing the strength of several of the offensive and defensive arm of his forces. However, he doesn't mass produce shuttles. He builds just about as many as he needs, which is usually about two or sometimes three. This also helps on maps where certain high ground areas need to be defended preemptively. He doesn't want any lurker drops to surprise him during high intensity situations. | ||
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