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Is there any potential for a late game unit composition in ZvP, in a situation where Protoss has essentially gotten High Templars, Reavers, Dark Archons with some Zealot and Dragoon support, where to counter Zerg starts to mass high cost high tech units to try and overwhelm the Protoss army. In this case almost purely Ultralisks and Lurkers with some spell caster support from Defilers and maybe even Queens.
The reason for this combination would be that when Protoss has already reached such a strong unit combination, regular low tech and mid tech units like Zerglings, Hydralisks, Mutalisks and even Guardians all simply melt without causing significant damage due to low health and the fact that these small units clump up making both psi storm and Scarab splash very effective in getting them all slaughtered.
One strength this unit combination has is the low amount of them so they should be easier to micro in that sense. With Ultralisks, you have units that have very high health, armor and speed, which means that psionic storms are no longer as effective, and even though scarabs are more effective vs Ultras than psi storm, even their effectiveness is slightly reduced since their splash is less useful. The Ultralisks merely have to stay alive long enough for the Lurkers to cause enough damage to the main targets. The main targets being the Reavers, since they are essentially a perfect anti-Zerg-ground-unit counter. If the Lurkers have enough time to destroy them, then it doesn't matter as much if psionic storms, Dragoon shots, or even Reaver Scarabs destroy them, since after the Reavers are gone, Zerg can concentrate on more cost effective, mobile and fast to produce units like Zerglings and Hydralisks, potentially with Ultralisk support as well.
The obvious problem is the cost of these units. Of course this unit composition would only be used in the late game in specific scenarios, so perhaps that gives the Zerg time to prepare to save up Vespene gas. If that's still not enough, perhaps the Zerg can try to buy time by placing lots of Sunken Colonies at bases, unless of course the Reavers are going to attack with the Protoss army already, in which case Zerg might have to sacrifice a base. It could be that Zerg needs more expansions earlier with Sunken Colonies to defend. Perhaps this is only possible with either bigger maps or with maps, where the expansions that are taken much later have extra Vespene geysers.
Thoughts?
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There's a lot of hypotheticals there. I don't think any protoss player will be able to perfectly micro High Templars, Reavers, Dark Archons all at the same time, and there are lots of things that can be done to disrupt or prevent a protoss from reaching an "ideal" army. Like make more hydras and kill the protoss. Or using mutas to kill HT, so a critical amount of storm energy is never reached. Or scourge to kill shuttles that reavers are so dependent on. Scourge also kills observers and often if you throw scourge and overlords randomly you can kill enough observers and now protoss can't attack into the lurkers.
Everything is so dependent on army control and micro; you can't say XYZ unit composition will beat ABC unit composition. How did that unit composition get there in the first place? Attrition from constant battles will give a decisive advantage to one side or another. You aren't going to have a circumstance where the P player has been losing bases and trading unfavourably all game long and then suddenly come out with a hypothetical late game unit composition and play like a protoss bonjwa that never existed and beat your Zerg army.
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On July 02 2020 22:19 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's a lot of hypotheticals there. I don't think any protoss player will be able to perfectly micro High Templars, Reavers, Dark Archons all at the same time, and there are lots of things that can be done to disrupt or prevent a protoss from reaching an "ideal" army. Like make more hydras and kill the protoss. Or using mutas to kill HT, so a critical amount of storm energy is never reached. Or scourge to kill shuttles that reavers are so dependent on. Scourge also kills observers and often if you throw scourge and overlords randomly you can kill enough observers and now protoss can't attack into the lurkers.
Everything is so dependent on army control and micro; you can't say XYZ unit composition will beat ABC unit composition. How did that unit composition get there in the first place? Attrition from constant battles will give a decisive advantage to one side or another. You aren't going to have a circumstance where the P player has been losing bases and trading unfavourably all game long and then suddenly come out with a hypothetical late game unit composition and play like a protoss bonjwa that never existed and beat your Zerg army.
Yea, the only problem I see is if the Protoss has already managed to place 1-2 Reavers, 1-2 HT and a DA with cannons at the bases he still needs to defend, while moving forward with the army, while paying attention to scourge or maybe even slowly without shuttles at all.
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Also this thing was kind of assuming that both P and Z did "equally well" and advanced into a very late game situation.
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Both P and Z can do equally well, but that doesn't mean that a hypothetical late game army will occur engage in original condition at full energy. Even a single plague that perfectly hits earlier would drastically weaken a hypothetical perfect late game protoss army. Or perhaps a few mutas come and snipes off a few HT when the P army is moving about. Or the single observer happens to die early. You have to assume a Zerg player is as equally skilled as the Protoss player and will actively engage in diminishing the power of the protoss late game composition, whilst the protoss is also actively engaging against that. There's absolutely zero reason why a Zerg player would engage a hypothetical late game protoss army that has loads of storm energy on the protoss's terms and every reason to try to diminish it's power before it reaches a mining base.
You are kind of presuming both sides will sit back and do nothing. But a situation where that occurs will be a situation where both players are too unskilled in jostling for advantage and probably have no ability to control the movement of such a large amount of units and micro all those different kinds of units. You can't separate the interactions and strength of unit composition from the ability to control and micro those units. Even the best pros can't control more than a few control groups at the same time.
Anyways, I don't know why but it seems to me that in PvZ most late game Zergs seem to respond to late game protoss compositions by making mainly hydras and defilers. The days of ultra ling defiler seems to be gone strangely enough. Which one is more effective? I don't know.
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Sure but what you are saying applies to literally every unit composition, build order and matchup so... You might as well argue that there is no reason for Terran to favor mech or bio in certain matchups, maps or situations. After all, sometimes a skilled Terran can beat a Protoss with bio. Just like sometimes, after all the potential game-winning early and mid-game strategic moves and timing-depndant moves that honor the current metagame have been exhausted, neither player gets a significant enough advantage until late game high tech units.
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If I'm not mistaken as you get into that late game composition, the point of that army is to hold key bases using Dark Archons for Mindcontrol, HT for storm dps, and Reavers with cannons to deal with the ground. You wouldn't want Ultras or lurkers to take that composition on, but instead really tap into the Defiler with Plague, Hydra, Queen with Broodling, and lings. No other way to do it except continue to broodlings HT, trade Lings and Hydras with Reavers, and just bring the health of everything down with Defilers.
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Well it's too bad since DA can also deal with Queens using feedback, both HT and Reaver can cost efficiently trade with Lings and Hydras, DA can of course also maelstrom Mutalisks and, if it's worth it, Lings or Hydras.
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I think whatever you do you need cracklings or hydras to deal damage. Ultra are just there to tank and lurkers wouldn't deal enough damage before the P army could disengage. Not to mention a ht/reaver/archon army would absolutely murder lurker/ultra, even with defiler support. With queen it might be a closer match but that would be a lot of gas and you ll be left with a lot of minerals anywah so might as well add a huge flank of cracklings there. Though all of this is very situational : map, where the attack takes place, etc
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Feelsbadman
User was warned for this post
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Looking at the true late game scenario the toss high tech units are superioror the zerg equivalent.
Ultra/Lings/Hydras/Defilers (not lurkers though they cost too much gas) work together quite well but you have got to hit the toss army before toss has got all the late game units (DA/Reavers etc...)
The style that you mentioned (playing more defensively and with lots of sunkens) used to be more popular but I think the high l level players have gotten so good at breaking defences so that they don't play with that style anymore.
I think it is still quite a good build at the lower levels - Ultras really help with bar macro.
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On July 02 2020 21:48 JonttuTonttu wrote:
Is there any potential for a late game unit composition in ZvP, in a situation where Protoss has essentially gotten High Templars, Reavers, Dark Archons with some Zealot and Dragoon support, where to counter Zerg starts to mass high cost high tech units to try and overwhelm the Protoss army. In this case almost purely Ultralisks and Lurkers with some spell caster support from Defilers and maybe even Queens.
The reason for this combination would be that when Protoss has already reached such a strong unit combination, regular low tech and mid tech units like Zerglings, Hydralisks, Mutalisks and even Guardians all simply melt without causing significant damage due to low health and the fact that these small units clump up making both psi storm and Scarab splash very effective in getting them all slaughtered.
One strength this unit combination has is the low amount of them so they should be easier to micro in that sense. With Ultralisks, you have units that have very high health, armor and speed, which means that psionic storms are no longer as effective, and even though scarabs are more effective vs Ultras than psi storm, even their effectiveness is slightly reduced since their splash is less useful. The Ultralisks merely have to stay alive long enough for the Lurkers to cause enough damage to the main targets. The main targets being the Reavers, since they are essentially a perfect anti-Zerg-ground-unit counter. If the Lurkers have enough time to destroy them, then it doesn't matter as much if psionic storms, Dragoon shots, or even Reaver Scarabs destroy them, since after the Reavers are gone, Zerg can concentrate on more cost effective, mobile and fast to produce units like Zerglings and Hydralisks, potentially with Ultralisk support as well.
The obvious problem is the cost of these units. Of course this unit composition would only be used in the late game in specific scenarios, so perhaps that gives the Zerg time to prepare to save up Vespene gas. If that's still not enough, perhaps the Zerg can try to buy time by placing lots of Sunken Colonies at bases, unless of course the Reavers are going to attack with the Protoss army already, in which case Zerg might have to sacrifice a base. It could be that Zerg needs more expansions earlier with Sunken Colonies to defend. Perhaps this is only possible with either bigger maps or with maps, where the expansions that are taken much later have extra Vespene geysers.
Thoughts?
the composition you have mentioned would be really bad against a lot of reavers. Lurkers and ultras are both really weak against reavers. With maelstrom, storm and archons, they trade far worse than they already would. Also, in the very late game, archons are superior units compared to zealots and dragoons.
Honestly, when protoss is able to produce a composition like what you mentioned (with archons replacing zealot/goon while turtling in a main with a lot of cannons, they are almost impossible to kill. I think the only way to destroy such a thing would be to doom drop the base after making them waste dark archon energy by using queens and other units to bait feedback and maelstrom.Otherwise, they could just maelstrom your overlords that are dropping units and that woud be a disaster.
edit: and as art of turtle mentioned, using plague, broodling while trying to micro hydraling carefully to waste scarabs are also good options. Parasite is good too because they will not kill the parasited unit (it's too valuable in the very late game). Magic boxing air units is important too. Eventually you might be able to whittle down the protoss this way and then finish them off with a big attack.
I have seen some pro games get this far and the protoss generally wins at around the 30+ minute mark because they will trade absurdly well against zerg units no matter what and the dark archon can feedback all zerg spellcasters. The main weakness of the composition is that it is very slow, very expensive, bad against static defense (archons are weak against sunkens and you don't want to trade scarabs for sunkens in the ultra late game) and it's also not super cost effective in an open field battle.
That is why the protoss usually makes this composition when they realize the map is drying out and it is easier to win by starving out the zerg than by taking more bases. Or in other words, they realize that map control is not very important anymore so they make a composition with inferior map control but is better at turtling.
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hidra ling defiler + few lurkers + decent control > protoss army
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Are you saying Zerg is underpowered compared to protoss because that’s what I got out of it. You’re the same guy who made the thread about the guardian buff which was pretty laughable. There are so many things Zerg can do to break a base with splash damage defence of a protoss. Darkswarm, carpet bombing while darkswarming a location, while doing a drop in production with mass cracklings (assuming protoss army is out on the map). At a certain point in the game Zerg has the most cost efficient unit by far, the crackling, good players know how to exploit this to the fullest. Not to mention in the early game Zerg can mass hydralisks and can storm dodge templars and sometimes catch Templars out in the open which can make a 150 gas investment disappear without causing any damage, this is especially effective against protoss when the high Templars are only supported by zealots. I think you’re balance crying about this game which is honestly pathetic in the year 2020
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The strongest protoss army is one that has a mind controlled drone.
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Late game toss will beat late game zerg if both have enough money to afford a 200/200 army. The best thing you can do is go mass lurkerling with defilers and hold bases. Make sure you have at least one more base than the toss and just camp. Even then it might become a tie if he just camps with templar dark archon cannon. Basically you should try to avoid getting this far into the game. It's as if you let the Terran build a 200/200 mech army with 3/3 upgrades -- basically impossible to beat if the other guy is good.
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On July 03 2020 16:38 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2020 21:48 JonttuTonttu wrote:
Is there any potential for a late game unit composition in ZvP, in a situation where Protoss has essentially gotten High Templars, Reavers, Dark Archons with some Zealot and Dragoon support, where to counter Zerg starts to mass high cost high tech units to try and overwhelm the Protoss army. In this case almost purely Ultralisks and Lurkers with some spell caster support from Defilers and maybe even Queens.
The reason for this combination would be that when Protoss has already reached such a strong unit combination, regular low tech and mid tech units like Zerglings, Hydralisks, Mutalisks and even Guardians all simply melt without causing significant damage due to low health and the fact that these small units clump up making both psi storm and Scarab splash very effective in getting them all slaughtered.
One strength this unit combination has is the low amount of them so they should be easier to micro in that sense. With Ultralisks, you have units that have very high health, armor and speed, which means that psionic storms are no longer as effective, and even though scarabs are more effective vs Ultras than psi storm, even their effectiveness is slightly reduced since their splash is less useful. The Ultralisks merely have to stay alive long enough for the Lurkers to cause enough damage to the main targets. The main targets being the Reavers, since they are essentially a perfect anti-Zerg-ground-unit counter. If the Lurkers have enough time to destroy them, then it doesn't matter as much if psionic storms, Dragoon shots, or even Reaver Scarabs destroy them, since after the Reavers are gone, Zerg can concentrate on more cost effective, mobile and fast to produce units like Zerglings and Hydralisks, potentially with Ultralisk support as well.
The obvious problem is the cost of these units. Of course this unit composition would only be used in the late game in specific scenarios, so perhaps that gives the Zerg time to prepare to save up Vespene gas. If that's still not enough, perhaps the Zerg can try to buy time by placing lots of Sunken Colonies at bases, unless of course the Reavers are going to attack with the Protoss army already, in which case Zerg might have to sacrifice a base. It could be that Zerg needs more expansions earlier with Sunken Colonies to defend. Perhaps this is only possible with either bigger maps or with maps, where the expansions that are taken much later have extra Vespene geysers.
Thoughts? the composition you have mentioned would be really bad against a lot of reavers. Lurkers and ultras are both really weak against reavers. With maelstrom, storm and archons, they trade far worse than they already would. Also, in the very late game, archons are superior units compared to zealots and dragoons. Honestly, when protoss is able to produce a composition like what you mentioned (with archons replacing zealot/goon while turtling in a main with a lot of cannons, they are almost impossible to kill. I think the only way to destroy such a thing would be to doom drop the base after making them waste dark archon energy by using queens and other units to bait feedback and maelstrom.Otherwise, they could just maelstrom your overlords that are dropping units and that woud be a disaster. edit: and as art of turtle mentioned, using plague, broodling while trying to micro hydraling carefully to waste scarabs are also good options. Parasite is good too because they will not kill the parasited unit (it's too valuable in the very late game). Magic boxing air units is important too. Eventually you might be able to whittle down the protoss this way and then finish them off with a big attack. I have seen some pro games get this far and the protoss generally wins at around the 30+ minute mark because they will trade absurdly well against zerg units no matter what and the dark archon can feedback all zerg spellcasters. The main weakness of the composition is that it is very slow, very expensive, bad against static defense (archons are weak against sunkens and you don't want to trade scarabs for sunkens in the ultra late game) and it's also not super cost effective in an open field battle. That is why the protoss usually makes this composition when they realize the map is drying out and it is easier to win by starving out the zerg than by taking more bases. Or in other words, they realize that map control is not very important anymore so they make a composition with inferior map control but is better at turtling.
Oh well that's too bad.
On July 03 2020 20:32 castleeMg wrote:
Are you saying Zerg is underpowered compared to protoss because that’s what I got out of it. You’re the same guy who made the thread about the guardian buff which was pretty laughable. There are so many things Zerg can do to break a base with splash damage defence of a protoss. Darkswarn, carpet bombing while darkswarning a location, while doing a drop in production with mass cracklings (assuming protoss army is out on the map). At a certain point in the game Zerg has the most cost efficient unit by far, the crackling, good players know how to exploit this to the fullest. Not to mention in the early game Zerg can mass hydralisks and can storm dodge templars and sometimes catch Templars out in the open which can make a 150 gas investment disappear without causing any damage, this is especially effective against protoss when the high Templars are only supported by zealots. I think you’re balance crying about this game which is honestly pathetic in the year 2020
It tells me a lot when the only way you can interpret those kinds of topics and posts is from the point of view of winning and losing games, as if that's the only motivation there is for people who play Brood War. Hell I am better at some other games but that does not mean I am as interested in them for example.
On July 03 2020 20:58 StRyKeR wrote:
Late game toss will beat late game zerg if both have enough money to afford a 200/200 army. The best thing you can do is go mass lurkerling with defilers and hold bases. Make sure you have at least one more base than the toss and just camp. Even then it might become a tie if he just camps with templar dark archon cannon. Basically you should try to avoid getting this far into the game. It's as if you let the Terran build a 200/200 mech army with 3/3 upgrades -- basically impossible to beat if the other guy is good.
There's still kinda one thing that I think, which of course might mean that I just don't understand, but if we had bigger maps with more space between expansions but not more resources, perhaps that could make 200/200 Terran weaker vs Protoss and 200/200 Protoss weaker against Zerg. Though even then in the latter case it's probably a timing related thing where Protoss just doesn't get the opportunity to make that turtly high tech high cost unit composition. I guess there is just no other way, if there is nothing the Zerg can do to beat it head on.
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I recommend checking out free vs. Jaedong on Athena to see at least a partial answer to your question.
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On July 03 2020 21:54 Jealous wrote:
I recommend checking out free vs. Jaedong on Athena to see at least a partial answer to your question.
Gotcha, do I just search for it from Liquipedia? Is there any specific name for that game?
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Frankly you are describing a situation where zerg is at a strong disadvantage and will most likely lose unless he kills protoss before he can turtle and wait for zerg to lose all his units. I don't think the question is what unit you should do, but more likely how do you not get in that scenario?
Unfortunately it is bound to happen, Dark Archon can MC, using ultralisk is out of question unless it is a killing move that will translate mostly in a "succeed or die" move. The best combination is defiler (plague is a must vs reaver and swarm to deal with archon) ling hydra lurker all 3/3 and one hell of a good micro.
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EPT
