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ImTerribleAtBW
4 Posts
-3 gate goon allin -2 gates forward at their wallin, zealots -1 base reaver drop, scouted it last on 4 player map -mass speedlings behind sunken, couldn't scout it, no drones made past 9 -2 hatch muta multiple games What am I supposed to do? I can't even make a tank or a mine in ANY of these games. I'm getting cheesed out before I can do anything. It's honestly infuriating and depressing that I can't get anything resembling a non-allin stomp. | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
On April 05 2020 00:01 ImTerribleAtBW wrote: I honestly want to quit this game. I play Terran and I've literally been 1-base allin-ed 6 consecutive games. I use 1-rax expand in every match-up, here's what I faced: -3 gate goon allin -2 gates forward at their wallin, zealots -1 base reaver drop, scouted it last on 4 player map -mass speedlings behind sunken, couldn't scout it, no drones made past 9 -2 hatch muta multiple games What am I supposed to do? I can't even make a tank or a mine in ANY of these games. I'm getting cheesed out before I can do anything. It's honestly infuriating and depressing that I can't get anything resembling a non-allin stomp. Rax fe is risky in TvT and TvP. Maybe you should learn bunker expand in TvP? It is most common in sponsored games? Or maybe even siege expand? TvZ rax fe 2 rax academy is pretty much what you play against Zerg. Maybe you should give replay so someone like KogeT can help you. | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3344 Posts
You should probably provide a (or several) replay(s). (And read the rulea for strategy posts, but you re new so i ll ignore that for now) If you do not fully know what to do to defend, i d suggest checking out the simple question/ simole answer thread, read liquipedia for terran strategies and look up day9's youtube series about bw, which explain the usual flow of each match up amd shows example games. 2 hatch mutas isnt all-in at all, it s very standard actually. Reaver play of one base before expand is also a safe protoss build. For the others i d say your wall was bad. Hard to say without a replay. Is your build done correctly? Scouting? Expanding isnt free, it s not like sc2. Lots of 1 base openings are standard in bw as well. Terran has good 1 base pushes in tvp too for example. Also, any win is good, there is nothing dirty about an all-in. Learning to defend better will also be beneficial to you. In ladder (i assume this is ladder games) the point is to win, doesn't matter how it s done. You re gonna lose a lot of games to a lot of weird things, and it s ok. That s how you learn. Good luck | ||
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ImTerribleAtBW
4 Posts
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ImTerribleAtBW
4 Posts
I guess I'll just take later expands in all matchups, try to get more units before I move down the ramp. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3344 Posts
On April 05 2020 00:19 ImTerribleAtBW wrote: Yes, I do realize 2 hatch muta isn't an all-in from 1 base, but it's one of the fastest rushes Zerg can use. It's definitely less all-in than the mass speedling behind a sunken colony... I guess I'll just take later expands in all matchups, try to get more units before I move down the ramp. 2 hatch mutas hit you around 6mins, so you should have plenty of time for expo+def. Get turrets  But sometimes you also need to realise the main reason you lost to the allin wasn't that the allin was great, but it was that you messed up your own build (macro wise usually) | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
On April 05 2020 00:19 ImTerribleAtBW wrote: Yes, I do realize 2 hatch muta isn't an all-in from 1 base, but it's one of the fastest rushes Zerg can use. It's definitely less all-in than the mass speedling behind a sunken colony... I guess I'll just take later expands in all matchups, try to get more units before I move down the ramp. Well here is one + Show Spoiler + tvp- bunker FE vs standard 9 depo 11 rax 12 gas 13 scout (N search) 15 depo(with rax scv) @88 gas -2 scv 17 factory-> start marine (total 3, 2 if cross pos) 22 CC (low ground)+ add on + 1 gas (2 on gas) /// 23 CC if 3 marine 23 bunker /// after depo if 3 marine 24 depo+1 gas (total 3) 27 aca -2nd tank checkpoint- 32 armory @2nd tank 2nd gas @ 2nd tank 38 2x scan asap 2nd factory +1 when armory done siege mode after 2nd factory scan @ 7 minute (first goliath) - 3 gate=not reaver - 2 gate=cannot rule out reaver 3rd cc starport @ 50% +1+ebay (~72) After 4 goliaths-> 3rd factory, start vulture science facility @ 100% starport+ 2nd armory Vulture speed after 3rd save up gas for 9 factories as soon as gas allows ~~ begin building depo 3 at a time, produce 8 vulture, 1 tank constantly) After 9 factory built->add on+vessel After vessel->mine upgrade push out as vessel pops, 4th and 5th cc, +1 addon And here is tutorial from the guy who knows how terran works... | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
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Piste
6167 Posts
Maybe try a bit safer build like a fac expand. Also, if you are not able to scout, have an scv at your opponents choke to see when he comes out and generally just play a bit safer unless you feel like taking risks. If your scv gets sniped, send out another one right away. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2031 Posts
I don't think this is a good build to start with vs T/P Also, I think there is much more cheese at lower lvls off MMR, so playing safe should be usually better. | ||
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Highgamer
1399 Posts
As others have mentioned, you just picked the "wrong" build for a 1350 points player or let's just say a more difficult build. 1Rax-FE can be made much safer but that requires good scouting/game sense and quite a bit of micro/multi-tasking at times. I'd reserve that for later. Beginner-friendly safe builds in TvP and TvT generally include instant marine-production (up to at least 2-3) to fend of cheese, and a factory and some units from it before attempts to go down the ramp. In TvP, if you don't have good enough marine- and SCV-micro against zealots yet, then you're only really safe with a zealot-tight wall. For that matchup I'd learn siege-expo (with wall) and FD ("FakeDouble") and explore the corresponding defensive reactions before moving on to a more economic opening like 1RaxFE. Both these builds allow you to play very safe by siegeing/mining up your natural before you expand, adding a bunker and turrets if needed against shuttle-play/DTs. TvT is being played quite aggressively these days from what I can tell, so at least 1Factory-Expand or even 2Factory-openings would be good to start off I assume. In TvZ, if you can't wall off ling-tight, then the usual 1rax-FE has it's problems against early-pools or speedling-allins, but you can learn to solve the problems. To be safe, scout with 2 SCVs (one at 11 supply, the second shortly before the barracks finishes building), build your CC inside your main as a rule of thumb and float it to the natural, read/watch about how to defend 9pool, and immediatelly build a bunker when you move down the ramp and keep your marines close to the ramp (to block run-bys). Against 2hatch-muta, you can scout that Zerg might be going for it with your SCV (lair starting very early on 2 hatch; seeing the spire; you can also tell by the timing of the 2nd gas but I'm not an expert on that). If you have to suspect that it's 2hatch-muta, then you build your engineering-bay after 2nd rax and academy, and add at least 2 turrets in each mineral-line and at your barracks (total of 6) for the first wave, bring your marines to defend, and keep building turrets. Your goal is just to survive and damage the mutas until you have enough marine&medic to move out. This game is brutal to learn (but awesome to master), your ladder-opponents will be better than you for quite a while, they will rush you because you're a beginner - so you better learn to shake off any (understandable) frustration about losing-streaks. Start every game with the intent to win or survive as long as possible (but no late gg-timing), but be at ease with another loss due to your lack of experience. If a day on ladder is too much to handle then better just take a break. Things will look very differently with a day or even a few hours to calm down. | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
> Surprised that you get rushed. Lol. Aggro > Greedy > Safe/Standard > Aggro. It's a strategy game. | ||
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llIH
Norway2142 Posts
I would recommend learning to defend the cheese and then going with more greedy builds as you learn the game more. There are plenty of good advice above. | ||
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blackmanpl
63 Posts
bw has a very high learning curve, right now the entry level is, pretty much brutal. Pick protoss for start, it's a race for novice players in brood war, you will start winning some games with that. What is your apm? | ||
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Highgamer
1399 Posts
On April 05 2020 05:57 blackmanpl wrote: @1350mmr you probably lack the necessary control and understanding. bw has a very high learning curve, right now the entry level is, pretty much brutal. Pick protoss for start, it's a race for novice players in brood war, you will start winning some games with that. What is your apm? I say don't pick Protoss, not for that reason. | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2932 Posts
Good luck to you OP. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
If it makes you feel better, you should know that eventually you can get really good at fighting cheese and even have a huge advantage facing it. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2221 Posts
On April 05 2020 00:01 ImTerribleAtBW wrote: -3 gate goon allin -2 gates forward at their wallin, zealots -1 base reaver drop, scouted it last on 4 player map -mass speedlings behind sunken, couldn't scout it, no drones made past 9 -2 hatch muta multiple games all of these happen even at very high level of play. 6 games in a row is kinda bad luck tho. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 05 2020 00:01 ImTerribleAtBW wrote: Don't 1-rax expand every matchup? Scout better. Most of those aren't even cheese.I honestly want to quit this game. I play Terran and I've literally been 1-base allin-ed 6 consecutive games. I use 1-rax expand in every match-up, here's what I faced: -3 gate goon allin -2 gates forward at their wallin, zealots -1 base reaver drop, scouted it last on 4 player map -mass speedlings behind sunken, couldn't scout it, no drones made past 9 -2 hatch muta multiple games What am I supposed to do? I can't even make a tank or a mine in ANY of these games. I'm getting cheesed out before I can do anything. It's honestly infuriating and depressing that I can't get anything resembling a non-allin stomp. -3 gate goon allin: You are going to have to scout better. keep scv in thier base for as long as possible. Build front bunker, repair and get range or build tank as soon as possible. -2 gates forward at their wallin, zealots: Cheese. You need to simcity with the rax and CC and depot to survive. Micro marines away from zealot and divide them.. -1 base reaver drop, scouted it last on 4 player map. You should have been able to scout it in time. Since you are dying to cheese, maybe adapt and send out a second SCV as soon as the first SCV scouts an empty position. Both SCV should then arrive at the two last position at the same time. -mass speedlings behind sunken, couldn't scout it, no drones made past 9: Have an SCV in their base. That sunken hurts the speedling rush massively. Camera hotkey your ramp and react to pull scvs in front of ramp and marines behind. -2 hatch muta multiple games: This isn't a cheese, it's completely standard. Only becomes an all-in if the Zerg decides to stick to mutas and thinks he can finish you off and never drones up. It's 100% scoutable and scannable. Build turrets and don't stop building turrets if the Z keeps destroying turrets. The pros could have something like 16 turrets aginst an all-in 2 base muta to defeat it. | ||
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Terrifyer
United States338 Posts
On April 05 2020 09:33 oshibori_probe wrote: Reminds me of the D ranks on iccup way back when. There was this initial hazing where you would get rushed by Peruvians until you got to C-. Good luck to you OP. Peru pumped out some top foreign players...but i would love to just see peruvians play against eachother in general...the games must be so fun/funny. I hate being this stereotypical but i always scout cross spawns whenever i play vs someone from peru lol. | ||
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srj
Canada134 Posts
On April 05 2020 09:33 oshibori_probe wrote: Reminds me of the D ranks on iccup way back when. There was this initial hazing where you would get rushed by Peruvians until you got to C-. Good luck to you OP. This is exactly my experience getting back into BW. If wins are what you're after it's a frustrating experience, and I can see why other people in E/F resort to cheese for wins. But if you're looking to improve, pick a safe opening for each matchup, keep executing it, and eventually your mechanics and execution will improve and you'll rise above the cheese. | ||
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sadego
10 Posts
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Highgamer
1399 Posts
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kaspa84
Brazil169 Posts
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
There's nothing cheese about 1 base openers in my opinion. I mean obviously the pros show that they are not really that great these days, but especially at lower lvls this should no be considered cheese imo. The game was played for years just like this. Cheese is something like 4/5/6 pool or double proxy 9 gate or other all ins that are really do or die. These just sound like pretty common builds that are pretty solid against a poorly executed fast exp. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/558492-flash-and-nada-on-starcraft-hotkeys-ect | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
On April 09 2020 05:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Don't know if you are still around OP, or if you have seen this already but the first few minutes of the video here talks about scouting when 1rax FE in TvP. Flash instantly changes to bunker fac FE if he sees the P scout coming early which should help you in holding P cheese. https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/558492-flash-and-nada-on-starcraft-hotkeys-ect That doesnt sound right, can you timestamp it? | ||
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Highgamer
1399 Posts
On April 09 2020 09:33 puppykiller wrote: That doesnt sound right, can you timestamp it? | ||
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Rus_Brain
Russian Federation1893 Posts
For this reason it is highly likely a newcomer will try himself somewhere else. But a solid advice will be: "watch reps, write down peon-based timings, try to repeat". On a higher skill, synchronize peon timing with a clock timing, to ensure you do everything in time. | ||
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llIH
Norway2142 Posts
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iopq
United States881 Posts
On April 05 2020 04:06 Jealous wrote: > Pick a greedy build. > Surprised that you get rushed. Lol. Aggro > Greedy > Safe/Standard > Aggro. It's a strategy game. Not quite. If you do it perfectly, you can hold any all-in. Which is of course for someone rated 1350 I suggest to practice their fake double build behind a wall-in. Because you won't micro vs. zealot pressure well, you won't read all the all-ins well, etc. so better do your own pressure and find out what the opponent is doing while setting up mines that is not to say that rax FE is actually very easy to break, it isn't - you have the ability to repair with 16 SCVs, you know, the workers with 60 HP that also attack faster than other workers if they need to | ||
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Models
Canada88 Posts
On April 05 2020 00:01 ImTerribleAtBW wrote: I honestly want to quit this game. I play Terran and I've literally been 1-base allin-ed 6 consecutive games. I use 1-rax expand in every match-up, here's what I faced: -3 gate goon allin -2 gates forward at their wallin, zealots -1 base reaver drop, scouted it last on 4 player map -mass speedlings behind sunken, couldn't scout it, no drones made past 9 -2 hatch muta multiple games What am I supposed to do? I can't even make a tank or a mine in ANY of these games. I'm getting cheesed out before I can do anything. It's honestly infuriating and depressing that I can't get anything resembling a non-allin stomp. why are you expanding at all if this is the case? 1 base more fun anyway and it sounds like u ain't having fun | ||
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JustTooJuicy
36 Posts
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CadenZie
Korea (South)545 Posts
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