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[Game theory] Map Control

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-22 03:15:22
March 19 2018 09:57 GMT
#1
[image loading]




I'm going to reiterate some concepts from the ZvP thread here, but I would also encourage you to read my last game theory thread, including the discussion with Bakuryu.



One of the most mystifying things about new players coming to Brood War is how to play on certain maps. For example, if someone is a Terran player and is having a difficult time playing against Zerg, they'll often ask for advice about their build order and/or unit composition. Not bad stuff to inquire about. The reason build orders even exist, though, is because of the way maps are designed. As maps change, build orders are also going to change.

As far as unit composition goes, this is also largely determined by the map as well. If you have a build order that works really well on one map, you may try the same strategy on a different map, and it feels really weak. To compensate for this weakness, you may be advised to change your approach to playing on the map and learn a whole new build order. If you're stubborn about playing one style in order to "master it", you need to know a few things: First, no one can 'master' any strategy or play style. You can always get better. Second, no 'good' player plays only one style or strategy 100% of the time. Third, you're practicing a build order and strategy because you want to improve so you can win. If you're thinking critically about this, you made the decision to pursue that strategy in order to win, and you need to make logical decisions about what is going to lead you to being successful in specific circumstances. There's a saying for this, which is: "Trying to ram a round peg into a square hole."

Before someone screams at me, "How can I git gud at my build if I'm practicing a bunch of different builds?", let me say this: I am not saying don't practice your favorite build. Yes, practice it. Consistency is very key to breaking out of being a low-level player into a mid-level player. But if you hit the ladder with Blizzard's matchmaking system, you're going to get a bunch of varying maps. If you played on iCCup, you could just play the same map over and over again ad nauseam. You can still do this if you just open a 1v1 game on melee. That way, you can practice a certain map and don't have to worry about ladder points.


Now that that's out of the way, let's put unit compositions into a couple of very generalized categories, which are: mobile and area-control.

Slow ground units with high DPS can be considered for area-control, such as Lurkers, Siege Tanks, Spider Mines, Reavers, High Templar.

A mobile army is one that quickly move from one area of the map to another area of the map to respond rapidly to enemy movements.


In TvZ, Terran can go marine/medic/firebat for a fairly mobile army that can move out of range of lurkers before they can burrow. The medic/marine force can move around the map and hit the Zerg in many different locations via dropships. Meanwhile, the Zerg has to control ramps and entrances with lurkers, which they have to pull up and burrow constantly in order to move them around. Essentially, the Zerg is playing area-control until they can afford to get ultralisks. If the Zerg tries to move out onto an open map, they will get flanked by the medic/marine force and take heavy damage. The only way for the Zerg to win with lurkers versus medic/marine is for the Terran to mess up.

[image loading]

When it comes to flanking, the more mobile army always has the ability to hit the less mobile army from many different angles. In the example above, the Zerg moves lurkers across a bridge, and they get intercepted by medic/marine forces and slaughtered.


[image loading]

If the marines cross the bridge, they will likely get killed because the bridge funnels all of them into a small space where the lurkers can easily deal with them. The best place for the more mobile army is an open space, and the worst place for them is in a choke point where they get herded into heavy dps or AoE attacks.





Let's look at Fighting Spirit! For the following map, the black areas are impassible by ground, grey represents high ground, white is low ground, and blue is resources:

[image loading]

So what can we glean from this? Well, you can see that around the edges of the map, there is more high ground and barriers, and in the middle of the map, the area is fairly open. High ground and barriers are going to favor area-control types of forces, and wide open areas are going to favor more mobile forces. I'm going to show examples from three match-ups to show how this map can be generally played.

First, Zerg versus Protoss.
+ Show Spoiler +

In terms of movement speed as it relates to ground mobility:

Zergling: 6.3
Hydralisk: 4.1
Ultralisk: 6.1
Lurker: 4.4

Zealot: 4.4
Dragoon: 3.9
High Templar: 2.4
Archon: 3.7

As you can see, with Protoss units, the average speed is slower than Zerg's, but also because high templar and archons tend to lag behind, the Protoss army constantly has to stop and regroup to wait for the high templar to catch up. This means that the Protoss force is traveling at an effective speed* of 2.4, whereas the slowest Zerg unit from this list would be moving at a speed of 4.1. This means that Zerg is going to have a mobility advantage, and so on a map with a lot of open space, the Zerg is going to be able to respond to threats much quicker than the Protoss can field them with ground forces. This is why in PvZ, the Protoss must be able to use corsairs, shuttles, and timing attacks in order to try and prevent the Zerg from having a large mobile force.

*When I say "effective speed", I mean that the army has to wait for the primary damage-dealers. For example, if Terran has a vulture/tank army, the tanks are going to deal the most damage, and so the vultures have to wait for the tanks to move into the position, meaning that the army will be effectively moving at the speed the tanks can move.

When we look at this match-up from the Zerg perspective, going into the mid-game is usually going to cause the Zerg to pick a tech path: either going primarily hydralisk or going lurker.

Let's say both players spawn in the top positions:

[image loading]

Because the Zerg player has the more mobile force and can control more area, the Zerg can take the natural of the bottom left base as their third, whereas the Protoss is better off taking the closer third base.


[image loading]

Notice that on the map, I put a red line on the Zerg side, and a green line on the Protoss side. These are effectively the areas that each play is trying to control in the mid-game. Of course, the Zerg wants to deny the Protoss control over the green area as much as possible, and the Protoss wants to deny the Zerg control over the red area as much as possible. However, if the Protoss does a timing attack, and it doesn't yield much damage, and the Zerg gets a big hydralisk army, it's going to change the game a lot.


[image loading]

The Zerg is going to have access to a fourth and fifth base, and in order to expand, the Protoss has to beat the Zerg on the open field, or else the Zerg will be able to continuously deny the Protoss from taking a base in the bottom right. If the Zerg gets to hive before the Protoss can take that fourth base, the odds of Protoss winning drastically fall. The Zerg will able to cost-effectively hit anywhere on the map with overlord drops, or zerglings, or even with their main army. So if the Protoss army leaves their area in the top right to secure the bottom right, the Zerg can hit the top right or vice-versa.

The question for Protoss then becomes: How do I win?

The answer sounds simple, but it takes practice: If the Protoss has good timings and he or she can disrupt the Zerg economy early, the mid-game hydralisk army simply won't be big enough to fight the Protoss army head-on. The Zerg will have to wait for Hive to be able to take on the Protoss force, and by then, the fourth base should be secure for Protoss.

Another factor is the Protoss' own advantage in mobility, which is the corsair. Since hydralisks can't be everywhere to defend everything, corsairs can knock out scouting overlords and scourge, which will allow the Protoss shuttle units into the Zerg's bases to do damage.


But for Zerg, if you're going into the mid-game with hydralisks, you're trying to control the middle of the map:

[image loading]


If the big area in the middle is yours as Zerg, then it's going to force the Protoss into a possibly unfavorable engagement, or have to do damage with drops. If they can't do damage with drops or engage, then you will have a big advantage, and once you get hive, can take your fifth and sixth bases, and just continuously deny the Protoss from the bottom right and/or drop on their main base, and do this until their economy is exhausted.

If your hydralisk army or hydra/lurker army is fairly wimpy and can't control the middle, then you're better off not trying to control the middle at all.

[image loading]

In some cases, you'll just turtle up with lurkers and go straight to hive. When you go hydra/lurker or hydra/muta in the mid game, it costs a lot of gas, but if you're not going to be making a huge 6-control-group force, you may as well spend the gas on going to hive. Obviously, if you turtle, you will forfeit map control to the Protoss. You will only have access to the chokepoints that you can control with lurkers, and a bit later, lurker/defiler/zergling.

If you're turtling, typically, you will have the minimal amount of defense possible, and dump all your extra money into upgrades for everything, lots of drones, and lots of hatcheries, so that once you saturate all your bases, you can crank out a very large number of hive units with good upgrades.

If you are Zerg and are losing in the early game or mid game, this is a good way to claw your way back into a position where you can win. Or maybe you just say "My micro sucks, I can't control mutalisks or hydralisks and they all just die." and playing more turtlesque is not a bad way to play for a newb Zerg player. So there are reasons to concede map control in ZvP to the Protoss, but it won't allow you to always deny their expansions from going up.



Terran versus Zerg (We're talking both bio and mech!)
+ Show Spoiler +

In terms of movement speed as it relates to ground mobility:

Marine: ~3
Marine(stimmed): 4.46
Firebat: ~3
Firebat(stimmed): 4.46
Medic: ~3

Lurker: 4.46
Zergling: 6.2
Defiler: 2.9

Yes, you read that correctly. A lurker is as fast as a stimmed unit. On paper, the Zerg army looks more mobile. A defiler moves at a speed almost equivalent to a normal Terran infantry unit. The Zerg army can traverse area-by-ground quicker, but there are a few factors to consider: The first is cost-effectiveness of melee units versus ranged units. In small numbers, melee units destroy ranged units. However, as the number of ranged units increases, the trajectory of their effectiveness slopes ever more upward. Also, due to the effectiveness of firebats and medics in supporting marines, the effectiveness of zerglings is essentially very low unless they are supported by bigger units, such as lurkers/mutalisks/defilers, or until the Zerg can upgrade adrenaline glands.

Another factor to consider in a fight between marines and lurkers is cost. Marines cost a lot less, and so trading units (both armies being mostly dead at the end of a fight, or losing units to kill units) hurts the Terran player less. This means that the Zerg needs a lot of lurkers and zerglings to win a huge fight, or has to manage their losses carefully. One last factor to consider in mobility is the simple fact that lurkers have to burrow to attack and unburrow to move. The slow speed by which lurkers burrow allows the Terran player to move units out of the way before the lurkers are burrowed, and even to attack and kill a lurker before it is burrowed.

Map control is very important in this match-up. In other match-ups like ZvZ, map control doesn't matter as much.

The general flow of the TvZ match-up has changed a lot over the years. In the late 2000s TvZ, the match-up would work something like this:

[image loading]

Both players would expand as quickly as possible, and the Zerg would tech up to mutalisks. The mutalisks would give the Zerg de facto map control because the Terran wouldn't be able to leave his/her base. The medic/marine forces would stay at home to fend off the mutalisks and waited for science vessel to move out.

[image loading]

Until about 9 minutes into the game, the map would look like the above map, with Zerg essentially having the whole map, and taking another main base. Because the science vessel's irradiate does splash damage, stacking mutalisks is no longer effective at that point, and the Terran would be free to move out onto the map.

That paradigm of the Terran being stuck in their first two bases changed when Terran players realized that they could delay their science vessel in favor of getting more marines. Therefore, if the Zerg committed their mutalisks to attack the Terran's base, the Terran could easily produce enough marines to break the Zerg's front before lurkers AND defend against mutalisks. This meant that the role of the mutalisk for Zerg changed from being an offensive weapon to a defensive weapon. The mobility offered by mutalisks and zerglings allows the Zerg to bounce back and forth across the map in the mid-game and head off the Terran forces in order to defend their natural and their far-third.

[image loading]

The first part of the game involves the Terran controlling the entire middle of the map with medic/marine, then adding in tanks and science vessels. However, because tanks are so slow, the Terran begins making vultures and controlling the center with spider mines.


There's a lot going on with this next map, but bear with me:
[image loading]

In this scenario, the Terran wants to take the top left base as their fourth base. Eventually, the Terran player will also take top left natural and 12 o'clock positions as well.

The standing Terran army will be using science vessels and tanks to put pressure on the Zerg, along with dropships. The more stuff the dropships and science vessels can kill, the longer it will take the Zerg to build a strong economy. The middle of the map is blanketed in mines, so if the Terran attacks one front, the Zerg won't be able to move out and flank from the other direction. The Zerg's only other option is to use overlords to drop units into the Terran expansions, so the Terran begins building a lot of turrets around their vulnerable bases.

Why does the Terran need so many bases? Because the ultimate goal is build a mech army out of factories, which is very difficult for a Zerg to deal with unless the Zerg has a big economy and lots of production.


So why not just go mech to start with?

Obviously, you can. But once Terran goes mech, the mobility advantage and map control advantage will go to the Zerg player. On Fighting Spirit, Terran is essentially confined to three bases when going mech, and has to step out into the open middle in order to take a fourth base. The same sort of dilemma exists in TvP, where Protoss controls the center in the middle game.

So let's look at another map:

[image loading]
This is Destination.

As you can see, there isn't one big area of open ground on this map. There are some big areas, but they're separated by bridges. This is where Destination is notorious for giving an area-control army an advantage. Armies that have a lot of mobility aren't as free to spread out and out-maneuver their opponents. They're all kind of funneled into a small area and small areas, chokepoints, and high-grounds are where area-control forces excel at being efficient. So while on Fighting Spirit, you need to out-maneuver your opponent, on Destination, you need to out-position your opponent.

[image loading]

So, Terran starts on top and Zerg on bottom. At the start of the game, the only caveat to going mech is being vulnerable due to having so few units. Some ways to deal with that are to harass the Zerg with vultures and/or wraiths, and scouting to see if the Zerg is going mutalisk or hydralisk first. If it's mutalisks, you start producing goliaths first, and if it's hydralisks, you start making tanks first. A good mech army is eventually going to have both goliaths and tanks, with about a 60/40 or 70/30 distribution of units, plus vultures, but it's important to know what the Zerg is doing by scouting. After that, it's just mines, tanks, turrets, and science vessels everywhere for days and days.

[image loading]

As you can see, Terran has very little map control. It's okay, as he or she will only need to defend that area and build up enough forces to creep forward and take more bases.

[image loading]

Eventually, Terran will take over the top of the map. I know the Zerg has a lot of bases in this scenario, but this is still perfectly winnable for Terran. I drew arrows showing the paths that Zerg can take to move into the Terran area, and all of those paths are across small bridges, which means the Zerg will have to go air, or send endless waves of units into suicidal attacks.

As long as the Terran stays busy killing things with science vessels, and laying mines, and replacing lost tanks and turrets, it will be difficult for Zerg to punch through unless the Terran has been massively delayed from expanding. Even if the Zerg breaks through, it's not a guaranteed death blow.

So how does Zerg deal with this? Part of the answer is to delay the Terran from expanding.

[image loading]

I would recommend starting off by trying to control the area across the bridges from the Terran's natural. The Zerg will not be able to hold this indefinitely, but by containing the Terran for a long time, it'll prevent the Terran from taking their third base right away. Even still, this can be a tricky map to play on versus Terran, because the chokepoints really make using ground units difficult, and the Terran can easily make a small fleet of valkyries and/or science vessels to deal with mutalisks/queens/guardians.


To summarize: If you're a Terran who is used to going bio, you also need to consider that there are some maps where you can go mech, and it will work really well for you. If you're Zerg, you need to have a good anti-mech strategy.


Protoss versus Terran
+ Show Spoiler +

In PvT, mobility is weird. In PvZ, as Protoss, your static defense is really good. In PvT, there's no such thing as static defense. Tanks massively out-range cannons, reavers, and high templar, so setting up a static defense to fight tanks is pretty useless. Protoss has to be completely mobile army in order to flank and destroy the Terran force, and it has to be done with arbiters following a huge number of low-tier units. However, Protoss has the option to go carriers.

Carriers are going to generally work better on maps where they can hit a target and then run away. If there is a high ground or some kind of barrier, that's where carriers are going to be the strongest. So on a map like Destination, Carriers will be more effective than on Fighting Spirit.

[image loading]

The first phase of the game for Protoss is going to be containing the Terran into a corner. The dragoons and zealots form an arc outside of the bridge in order to catch the Terran if he or she moves out onto the open center of the map. Technically, the Protoss has the more mobile force since tanks have to siege and unsiege in order to change positions. However, the main threat at this point of the game is not the Terran moving out with tanks, but sending out vultures. Vultures are the fastest unit in the game, and will outmaneuver any other kind of army, so it is necessary to place dragoons, pylons, and cannons in ways that become physical barriers to the vultures.

[image loading]

The next phase of the game for Protoss is to max out his or her army completely while teching up to arbiters, and begin building more gateways. In the map above I show the Protoss controlling two main bases, and having gateways in each one, and rallying those gateways out onto the map.

Also note I crossed out the 12 o'clock base as a possible expansion. I'll talk about that more in the next section, and why I put that there.

[image loading]

Once the Terran reaches a certain point (either 150 or 200 supply with double armories) they're going to move out onto the map. For Protoss, the next step is fairly straightforward: while the tanks are unsieged, send in units from as many directions as possible. Dragoons should go first, then zealots. If Protoss has shuttles, they'll then send them to drop units into the tanks. If the Terran screws up, the Terran army will be wiped from the map, but if the Terran engages well, they will push the Protoss back.

A good Terran engagement involves keeping vultures out in front, not sieging on spider mines, having six goliaths to shoot down the arbiter, and putting their EMP on either an arbiter, or into the bulk of the Protoss forces. Of course, not having all the tanks in one big clump helps as well.

[image loading]

If the Terran breaks through, the Protoss natural is probably going to fall. But it's alright. The Terran doesn't really have "map control". They control a weird-shaped path through the top of the map, and when spread out over that wide of an area, there are weaknesses. A good Protoss will not freak out over this, but in fact, should expect this. The Protoss will re-rally all of the gateways in their main to the top of their main base's ramp, and use the other gateways on the bottom to flank from the bottom of the map, or do a recall into the Terran's base.

If the Terran gets into this particular position, the best thing to do would be to contain the ramp to the Protoss main, and not try to go up into it. The Terran should send a group of two tanks to the Protoss' third base (in this case, the 9 o'clock position), and send the bulk of their army to block of the path of the Protoss reinforcements:

[image loading]

In this scenario, killing the 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock bases are going to be key for Terran. The bulk of the Terran force should be to block off reinforcements. Mines should be out on the map, and turrets should be up, because this is the time when a recall from the Protoss could screw everything up.

Terran's expansion options are limited. Expanding to the middle isn't a bad idea, but it isn't easy to defend, and there aren't very many minerals there. The 12 o'clock is close, but susceptible to a very close recall. The bottom right is also vulnerable, but isn't as close to the Protoss main.

If the 6 or 9 positions fall for Protoss, the only way to reasonably have a chance is to utilize spells effectively, and do damage with recalls.


Drop Paths
+ Show Spoiler +

This section has a lot to do with planning where to expand and why certain spots can help you to defend yourself better, and also attack better. Usually, the rule of thumb is: Don't expand towards your opponent. There are many exceptions to this rule, which I'll discuss in a second, but first I want to explain why someone would want to avoid expanding towards their opponent. Let's look at PvT again:

[image loading]

The first factor is distance. If Terran spawns top right and Protoss spawns top left, then the 12 o'clock expansion is probably not the best choice for the Protoss. Rather than having to move deep into the open area where getting flanked is possible, the Terran can leap-frog right up to the 12 o'clock, not get flanked, and burn down the nexus there with relative ease.

The same would apply for a Protoss player expanding right next to Zerg, or Zerg expanding right next to a Protoss. It's not impossible, but there is very little time to scout an incoming attack and react to it appropriately. However, if you are building a lot of static defense, then yes, expanding towards your opponent is not only doable, but logical as well. If you're Zerg, and you expand somewhere close to the Protoss and put a bunch of lurkers/defilers/sunkens/spores there, the Protoss might end up throwing away a lot of units to try and remove you from that spot. However, if you cannot defend the base reasonably well, DON'T DO THIS.

Scenario #1:

You're Zerg, you're planning to take the close third. You spawn top left, and Protoss spawns top right.

[image loading]

The distance difference between the 12 position and the 9 position gives you more time to send your forces to where they're needed. In a similar scenario, if you and Protoss spawn in the same positions as shown here, and you want to take the far third, which base to take would be a no-brainer. You'd take the bottom left natural.


Scenario #2:

You're Zerg, you're planning to take a far third. You spawn bottom left, and Protoss spawns top right.

[image loading]

Where do you expand? This has a less definite answer, because if you're in opposite corners, then no matter where you expand, it's going to be towards your opponent, relatively speaking. So, the solution I would propose is to ask yourself, "If the Protoss does a 7-minute zealot timing attack, from which natural will it be easier to scout?" The answer may come down to distance:

[image loading]

If you assume that all attacks will come from the Protoss natural, then the distance probably won't differ much. I've heard the argument that "On fighting spirit, the Protoss always blocks off their third base ramp, so no attack will come through there."

It's an interesting proposition, for sure, but I would also say that most Protoss launch their timing attack while taking their third nexus, or slightly after, which means the ramp will be unobstructed, and the Protoss area will be difficult to scout with few units that early in the game. From the example above, Option A, to me, seems more ideal because it is away from the Protoss third base, as opposed to Option B, which is right next to the Protoss third base.

There's actually no "wrong" answer here, but I hope that the logic behind my reason makes sense. I'll add another argument for expanding to Option A in a moment when I talk about drop paths, but first, I want to give one more example from ZvP about expanding.


Scenario #3:

[image loading]

You're Zerg playing against Protoss on Destination, and you're in the hive-stage of the game, and have all your tech. So which base do you take next after the first four? There isn't really a correct answer for this, but I wanted to propose a scenario in which you expand towards your opponent:

[image loading]

Rather than taking the 10 o'clock position, a Zerg with defiler/lurker can easily take the base on the middle left, which is somewhere between 3 and 4, so I labelled it "3:30". The benefit to taking such a base is that because of the high ground, and lurker/defiler, this base requires very little resources to effectively take and defend. Most Protoss players like to take the 4 o'clock position, because it is easy to defend with cannons and templar. As an interesting side note, the bridge down there is bugged so a scarab cannot shoot across the bridge.

Having the 3:30 base makes assaulting the 4 position very easy to do with guardians and such, and will pressure the Protoss to engage the 3:30 base. This can be quite good for Zerg because the Protoss will be fighting uphill into a bottleneck.



Drop Paths

I don't know if there is an existing term for this, so I don't want to take credit for having coined this phrase. However, I rarely hear anyone talk about drop paths or anything like it, so I'm not entirely sure. So, please forgive my ignorance on this matter.

Simply put, a drop path is an area that you can fly over that is safe because you have presence there and your opponent does not. Typically, when a player does a drop, either with overlords, dropships, shuttles, or with an arbiter, they tend to fly where they think their ship will not be intercepted or destroyed. This means that flying over the middle of the map into a dark fog-of-war is a bad idea, generally speaking. You don't want to fly over anything that will see your drop coming, because then once the drop arrives, there will enemies waiting to neutralize it.

Example #1:

You're a Protoss and want to recall into the Terran main.

[image loading]

The Xs are turrets. You can probably see the problem here already. There is no obvious drop path to the Terran main. There is no drop path to anywhere, really. Every route you could take with the arbiter will get spotted by mines, and the arbiter will have to fly over turrets somewhere, and probably will be crushed by ground forces even if the recall is successful.

Edit: Just to clarify, if Terran is turtling really hard, Protoss can take more bases, and afford carriers. I think it's easier to play carriers on Destination, but if you're Protoss and want to recall, try this: hallucinate your arbiters, and keep the hallucinated arbiters in front, and let them take the turret hits.


Example #2:

Kind of the same scenario as example 1. You want to drop on the Terran main and you're Zerg.

[image loading]

This scenario is different because the Terran expanded towards the left side of the map. Because you, as Zerg, control the 3:30 position, you can fly your overlords over that base, which means that the time the Terran will have to react will be very short. Even though there is a turret ring, the best place to drop will be around the back of the Terran's main.

[image loading]

Keep in mind that I've not saying the drop will be a success or a failure. I'm just saying that in order to hit your opponent with a drop, it is best to fly over area that you control. If at all possible, you should think of this in advance. On some maps, you won't even have to. If you play ZvP on Tau Cross, and you spawn bottom and Protoss spawns left, your natural and third create a very convenient drop path right into the Protoss' main. Maps like Python, Gaia, Paranoid Android, and other maps with 'close' spawns have fallen out of favor because the drop paths can be so short that it is almost impossible to scout them or react to them in time.



Example #3:

You're Protoss and you want to drop a combination of high templar and dark templar into the Zerg.

[image loading]

I brought this up earlier about expanding close to the Protoss third, and here's one more reason why I think it can be less-than-ideal. If you, as Protoss, spawn top right, and the Zerg spawns bottom left, but takes the bottom right as their third and fourth bases, then you have a really convenient drop path to the Zerg's third. All you need to do is clear the area with corsairs, and then psi-storm the drones.

If the Zerg takes the top left instead, you have a much longer drop path across the top of the map. If you want to cross the center of the map, it can be extremely risky unless your shuttle is following your army through the middle. Generally speaking, the more distance the shuttle has to cover over unknown or enemy space, the higher the risk.




Creating a drop path can vary in difficulty depending on the situation. But basically, as long as your stuff is there to defend the area, you can generally feel safer flying there.

There are many different drop path scenarios I could talk about, but for now, I want to focus on the two key reasons why you should know where drop paths are: The first is to know where to send your transports so they don't die and you don't have to lose that investment. The second is to be able to defend against drops. The end.


What do you think? Let me know in the comments. We'll talk it out and have a good discussion!
+
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
CadenZie
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Korea (South)545 Posts
March 19 2018 19:26 GMT
#2
i love the dragoonerang
funnybananaman
Profile Joined April 2009
United States830 Posts
March 19 2018 19:50 GMT
#3
Yeah map control is essential in starcraft. Often games are lost or won in the first minutes by a player ceding map control, unit control, and area control to the other player. Your post does a good job distinguishing bettween the differences in these concepts. Noobs in iccup and even average and competitive players will therefore force all their ladder games to be played on a) FS fighting spirit, b) python because theyve been drilled on how to gain map control through the midgame on these static large surface maps. A variety of map pool being used in the scene is essential to developing how players take control of maps, as different map doodads make for different strategies for controlling said areas a map. Neutral buildings, ramps, verticality, horizontal boxes, resource locations all matter to the mind of an intelligent player trying to take map control versus his opponent. This can also be on offense and defense. IMo what the scene needs right now is, 1) a resurgence in Korean bw:sc and new vods that foreigners can follow along with and modernize and calibrate to a metagame that corresponds with the current ladder time (month, day, year) 2018 going on 2019. We also could benefit from Kespa genius mapheads like Rose.of.Dream and others releasing a high level and modern mappack of 12-16 great broodwar maps that could get incorporated in to Iccup mappacks and Fish mappacks and Korean circut play instead of having every stragegy discussion be based off of the map concepts of FS and thats it. SC:bw greatest stregth is this kind of diversity in mapmaking which separates it intellectually from Diablo and WoW and for the scene to keep developing the mapmakers need to put in some work. New OSL and MSL play would also give people new ideas of how to approach brood:war games.
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
March 19 2018 20:31 GMT
#4
On March 20 2018 04:50 funnybananaman wrote:
Yeah map control is essential in starcraft. Often games are lost or won in the first minutes by a player ceding map control, unit control, and area control to the other player. Your post does a good job distinguishing bettween the differences in these concepts. Noobs in iccup and even average and competitive players will therefore force all their ladder games to be played on a) FS fighting spirit, b) python because theyve been drilled on how to gain map control through the midgame on these static large surface maps. A variety of map pool being used in the scene is essential to developing how players take control of maps, as different map doodads make for different strategies for controlling said areas a map. Neutral buildings, ramps, verticality, horizontal boxes, resource locations all matter to the mind of an intelligent player trying to take map control versus his opponent. This can also be on offense and defense. IMo what the scene needs right now is, 1) a resurgence in Korean bw:sc and new vods that foreigners can follow along with and modernize and calibrate to a metagame that corresponds with the current ladder time (month, day, year) 2018 going on 2019. We also could benefit from Kespa genius mapheads like Rose.of.Dream and others releasing a high level and modern mappack of 12-16 great broodwar maps that could get incorporated in to Iccup mappacks and Fish mappacks and Korean circut play instead of having every stragegy discussion be based off of the map concepts of FS and thats it. SC:bw greatest stregth is this kind of diversity in mapmaking which separates it intellectually from Diablo and WoW and for the scene to keep developing the mapmakers need to put in some work. New OSL and MSL play would also give people new ideas of how to approach brood:war games.


Python really isn't played anymore. It's just way too open in the middle and players don't like the drop threat from close spawns. Also, it's wicked hard to simcity your natural.

The thing about Fighting Spirit that many people don't realize is that many different play styles will work on that map, and that's why it's become so popular in Korea. On a map like Matchpoint, or like on Katrina, the use of mobile units to control the center isn't really key to winning a match, and more area-control is needed to defend chokepoints. I like the map Sparkle because it really changes the paradigm from being a choice between center-control or point-control. Same with Outsider, but unfortunately, Outsider never really caught on as a popular map. People tend to like what they're currently comfortable with.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Alpha-NP-
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1242 Posts
March 19 2018 21:13 GMT
#5
Nice thought out post Nina.
funnybananaman
Profile Joined April 2009
United States830 Posts
March 20 2018 00:37 GMT
#6
Yeah, to what you replyed thats facts. Some maps i think area control is super valuable is Blue storm, Destination, Chypong-Reong, Medeusa, Andromeda, and others where the third can be taken inside the natural or main, and a long siege-stragegy macro game can produce wins. Fast unit maneuvering to take center control is valuable on maps like La mancha, Jade, Luna, Longinus, heartbreak ridge, Bloody ridge, and creative spaces like that with large wide center ramps rather then narrow edge-hugging bridges. Sparkle is a weird one to use these concepts on because of its island design. Air dominance and anti-air area control would be essential to victory on there.
funnybananaman
Profile Joined April 2009
United States830 Posts
March 20 2018 00:50 GMT
#7
Map control is important in terran versus zerg but less important in protoss versus zerg, and zerg versus terran inversely, with a bio opening, much of the game is decided on muta micro versus terrans bio clump, and who can deny who'se third base and lategame tech more effectively.
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
March 20 2018 09:40 GMT
#8
On March 20 2018 09:37 funnybananaman wrote:
Yeah, to what you replyed thats facts. Some maps i think area control is super valuable is Blue storm, Destination, Chypong-Reong, Medeusa, Andromeda, and others where the third can be taken inside the natural or main, and a long siege-stragegy macro game can produce wins. Fast unit maneuvering to take center control is valuable on maps like La mancha, Jade, Luna, Longinus, heartbreak ridge, Bloody ridge, and creative spaces like that with large wide center ramps rather then narrow edge-hugging bridges. Sparkle is a weird one to use these concepts on because of its island design. Air dominance and anti-air area control would be essential to victory on there.


Hm, here's how I'd categorize these maps:

Point control centric

Bluestorm
Destination
Chupong-Ryeong
Bloody Ridge
Heartbreak Ridge


Mobility centric

Andromedia
Jade
Luna
Python

Mixed

Longinus
La Mancha


Any map with a lot of obstacles in the middle isn't going to allow big flanking movements, if the middle is open field, then that's where I'd place the emphasis. The thing about a map like Longinus is that the middle of the map is big and open, but there are a lot of ramps going up and down, and since holding the ramps will give you control, it's kind of a mix of both. It not that great of a map, though, and I'd rather see people play something like Aztec instead.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-20 11:18:52
March 20 2018 10:44 GMT
#9
On March 19 2018 18:57 ninazerg wrote:As an interesting side note, the bridge down there is bugged so a scarab cannot shoot across the bridge.


I think I have an idea why that is.
Do you know of any other examples for this kind of bug?

Now I am curious where Aztec would fall into your map classification scheme.
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
March 20 2018 17:46 GMT
#10
On March 20 2018 19:44 Freakling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2018 18:57 ninazerg wrote:As an interesting side note, the bridge down there is bugged so a scarab cannot shoot across the bridge.


I think I have an idea why that is.
Do you know of any other examples for this kind of bug?

Now I am curious where Aztec would fall into your map classification scheme.


I've only seen the bug happen once.

Aztec, along with many other maps, have a lot of open, flat ground in the middle. Controlling the center with a mobile army works fine there. It's not as easy to be turtley on this map, which is probably why Protoss has such high win rate in PvT on it.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-20 19:21:45
March 20 2018 19:20 GMT
#11
On March 21 2018 02:46 ninazerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2018 19:44 Freakling wrote:
On March 19 2018 18:57 ninazerg wrote:As an interesting side note, the bridge down there is bugged so a scarab cannot shoot across the bridge.


I think I have an idea why that is.
Do you know of any other examples for this kind of bug?

Now I am curious where Aztec would fall into your map classification scheme.


I've only seen the bug happen once.

Well, it is a very specific situation on Destination I guess. It is caused by the pathfinding regions being clustered tightly together, but with their nodes far apart, it seems. This causes range calculations for Reavers (which is pathfinding distance as opposed to simple radial distance) to be off.
So the region layout has to be tweaked to fix it.
funnybananaman
Profile Joined April 2009
United States830 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-21 03:55:46
March 21 2018 03:52 GMT
#12
Nuked






funnybananaman
Profile Joined April 2009
United States830 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-21 03:56:30
March 21 2018 03:53 GMT
#13
I would throw Aztec, roadkill, roadrunner, Athena 2, Katrina , coliseum 2, Cali, God’s garden , Gaia, Hannibal,
Adrenaline rush, Byzantium, adrenaline rush, chain reaction, cross game, holy world, baekmagoji, ungoro crater, tears of the moon, Troy, Tiamat, othello, wuthering heights, Carthage,
Odd-eye, yellow, gemlong, latin quarter,as maps where the informed player can take a concrete advantage by playing a defensive area control type build. Maps are usually only built for 3 play styles, rush, map control macro rush, or defensive area control and turtle. Determining which map that your game may be in as a game begins is crucial to figuring out what strategy to take to your opponent and how to construct a game plan for winning or being competitive in that game. A detailed tlpds search and writeup could make articles with passionate and detailed battle report type preparation guides for playing all maps in the iccup and foreign play pool and map pack.






fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States786 Posts
March 21 2018 18:44 GMT
#14
Good discussion Nina. I tend to believe this is the most important thing besides mechanical ability: a player's ability to adapt to a map.

Sounds like the new ladder went in a good direction. One of my least favorite things about the iccup/fish ladder days was the overabundance of players set on playing 1 map.
NAKR`flying
art_of_turtle
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
United States1183 Posts
March 21 2018 20:41 GMT
#15
On March 22 2018 03:44 fearthequeen wrote:
Good discussion Nina. I tend to believe this is the most important thing besides mechanical ability: a player's ability to adapt to a map.

Sounds like the new ladder went in a good direction. One of my least favorite things about the iccup/fish ladder days was the overabundance of players set on playing 1 map.

FLYING!!!! IVE MISSED YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Flash should fear Sacsri
HerbMon
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States460 Posts
March 21 2018 21:21 GMT
#16
Flying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why don't you love us anymore?
How we will win in the period ahead.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10141 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-21 22:34:39
March 21 2018 22:34 GMT
#17
On March 20 2018 09:50 funnybananaman wrote:
Map control is important in terran versus zerg but less important in protoss versus zerg


Nonsense.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
GeckoXp
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Germany2016 Posts
March 21 2018 23:27 GMT
#18
On March 22 2018 07:34 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2018 09:50 funnybananaman wrote:
Map control is important in terran versus zerg but less important in protoss versus zerg


Nonsense.


He's not entirely wrong if you include one of his earlier posts and this:

My problem with the guide is it's attempt to cover all general aspects of map control to the point that you already do require a good grasp on the game to get the facts right, otherwise you are tempted to misinterprete the given data.

For instance, the Toss vs Zerg scenario states that the main mechanic of a Toss to gain control of the center in the earlier stages lies in the Corsairs. That's not wrong, but the emphasis of most post Bisu-vs-Savior Builds lies in the first attacks with Speed-Zealots. Hydralisks obviously kill Speed Zealots and eat them, but in lower numbers the Zealots can be used to combat Hydralisks being gathered in the center; that's the crucial point of the entire strategy behind it - Zerg does have enough forces to gain control, he simply can't get them in the spot he wants to have them (on the map, phrasing that in English is quite difficult). Zerg is now in a position in which he either hits the timings faster and takes control, can't gather troops in the center or faces the problem that he can, but probably has to deal with a vulnerable expansion. Only later on Corsairs are used as air support to put additional pressure on Zerg and shield the own army when the first spell casters are out. And this again, is just generally speaking. It's not Nina's fault though, as it's not wrong what she writes, yet not extremely accurate either, this comes with the chosen topic. A comparison of some (the same) builds on chosen maps would maybe help here, just to see in detail what is meant, as the topic is rather abstract.

In this regard, speaking of the most general of chosen strategies, funny isn't wrong: PvZ is more forgiving to early game screw ups than TvZ (blunder 4 Mutas and you're dead, lose five Hydras and you're still in), and a lot of that has to do with both micro in the opening stages and the chosen battle field (and therefore map control). However, once the tables have turned, map control in both match ups is highly important, yet not in the same kind of way.

I haven't finished the guide in its entirety yet, but it seems hard to cover all approaches to the game, just thinking of (not entirely sure it was him) Androide and his 'creative' usage of drop ships to turn the concepts of Terran mobility upside down: 12 Vultures + 2 Dropships with 2 Tanks each could really be a pain in the ass on maps like Gaia, where you wouldn't believe a Terran could magically appear in the utmost unhandy spots against your Toss expos. Incredibly hard to defend, especially when you are used to having the upper hand in terms of mobility and suddenly you're the snail.
c3rberUs
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Japan11286 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-22 10:19:35
March 22 2018 10:17 GMT
#19
Map control is equally important in all matchups, but there are builds that surrender map control early in the game for tech or eco that is then used to contest map control later. It may feel like map control isn't as essential in a certain mu due to builds that flow as mentioned may be trending in the meta.
WriterMovie, 진영화 : "StarCraft will never die".
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
March 22 2018 20:55 GMT
#20
My post is mostly about how map control generally works, not if it's necessary.

The more mobile force is going to be able to hit different areas on the map or flank the less mobile army, which is going to create an incentive for the less mobile side some way to compensate for that. Map control is more applicable for ground-based armies because they have to adapt to the terrain features, whereas air units do not. A player who has invested most of his/her money into an armada of air units is going to have a more mobile force than any ground army, but there are certain limitations that make going all-air all the time difficult or impossible in some cases. Part of it is the expense of going mass air, and and part of it is the hard-counters that air units run into. Dropships, shuttles, overlords, and arbiters also add mobility to a force, but I addressed this in the original post. The only barrier for usage is the cost, which is why Protosses need to get a lot of bases to produce carriers, and Terrans need a lot of bases to make battlecruisers. If Protoss goes 2 base carrier versus Terran, they can lose very quickly if Terran simply makes goliaths.

When I say "map control isn't that important in ZvZ", I'm not saying it doesn't exist, or that it can't be utilized. Most players put most of their income into mutalisks, and since both forces are equally mobile, the only explicit advantage one can have is superiority in terms numbers, upgrades, and support (like a queen with ensnare) for the mutalisks. However, if for example, I have less mutalisks than my opponent, and I'm scared to move my mutalisks away from my home base to engage my opponent, they have map control. They can use that to expand to their natural, get more gas, and cement their advantage.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
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