EPTAre you some sort of semi-pro or something? Kang Min taught you timing?
Anyways this was an interesting read even for me who isn't a toss user.
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Eagleheart
Sweden776 Posts
Are you some sort of semi-pro or something? Kang Min taught you timing? Anyways this was an interesting read even for me who isn't a toss user. | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
nice guide by the way. | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
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stickman
136 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On December 13 2006 07:53 BlueIris wrote: Your rebuttal to my "harass instead of defend tactic" actually supports my argument. Yes, the zerg will only make expos that it can protect. Thats exactly what you want. Your only aim for harass is to bother the zerg long enough to set up 4-5 cannons and a few temps... a solid defense for early game. If you send an attack to an expo, "the only times when zerg would expo is if they can protect it, either with lurkers or muta/ling", wouldn't that mean that the zerg is sending their units back to stop YOUR harrass rather than using their units to harass you? That is exactly what you want. You want the zerg to send back their units, providing you the time to set up and maintain any early/mid game expo. What you really want is something to keep zerg busy, if one dark templar will do the job, then that’s even better for you. If you would like, I can provide a number of replays of either my pvz or a large number of pro games to help clarify. Although a player should pick and chose when to play aggressively and non-aggressively (based on situation), I tend to play a bit more aggressively due to my style. I don't know if there is a specific answer for this but it's good to discuss. Situation #1: Toss one base expands on two gates and comes out with a good number of zealots, I don't know exactly how many, I'm not that familiar with toss rush builds. The speedlots can be +1, or paired with dts or even a range goon rush on three gates. In this situation assuming zerg is going 3 hatch lurkers. The aggressive zerg will stop drone production earlier than usual and mass speedlings. He will sunken up and have most of his lings to backstab when toss comes out. At this point if zerg has an ovie near the toss natural, there's nothing you can do but turn back and confront that force unless you want to trade bases which in most cases would not be wise. Even if you went sair and a dt or two to defend, your cannons will not be up in time and you're still in danger of losing your nexus. If you choose to turn back, lurkers will soon follow and if at this point you don't have a good number of cannons up, you may lose them and possibly get some lurkers stuck in your nat. There's no one base toss ground rush that can't be stopped with a couple sunkens and a group of lings maybe except for 3 gate goons which in that case you'll need to sunken smarter and get more lings or some hydras. The point is, when one base toss comes out, you can always exploit that time window in one way or another because protoss simply does not have the mobility and flexibility to attack and expand. You need to have cannons up to protect vs lurkers, but cannons take long to warp and you need something to protect them while they're warping. I'm not a toss player, but out of all the tosses i've played, no one 1 base rushes anymore unless they're damn sure it'll work. Getting your expo up early and safely should be your main priority. Situation #2, this is much more vague, but it's when toss gets a third expansion after FEing. Naturally you'll want to do as much damage as you can with those +1 speedlots. And after you come out, if you're feeling risky you can expand but it's not recommended. I don't know when is the best time for the 3rd expo. It differs from toss to toss. If you expand too early that expo will die because you won't have enough units to protect it. Expand too late and you'll be down. I usually match caraspace so after I kill zealots I immediately go for 3rd expo and followed by lurkers or if toss has all his units there to defend, I counter nat or just contain and expo myself if toss is good. I really don't have a point here because every game is different when toss FEs. But I guess my argument would be that, don't attack when you're expanding unless you're sure you won't get backstabbed. And that's not a decision most of the time because zerg will backstab you. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Loveletter
United States543 Posts
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Pressure
7326 Posts
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Dendra
Croatia801 Posts
(something like terran focusing his army on backing up the tanks only in this case we rarely see 8+ reavers :D as often as we see 10+ tanks) | ||
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SCNewb
Canada2210 Posts
Interesting read. Very descriptive Recommended for Featured and Recommended Threads | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On December 13 2006 06:35 FrozenArbiter wrote: Very good post, you and I seem to think the exact same things about PvZ (I've been fighting for the 'pvz isn't imbalanced' side for years and written several enormous pvz posts with similiar content to yours). Nice to have you here! I disagree about the 1-3 cannons if muta tho - 1 cannon and an archon probably can't even beat 4 or 5 mutas, they'll just kill it then run around hitting your probes. 3 is really the minimum if he really invests in mutas. And also I kind of like to get storm instead of more archons whenever possible, as a hydra switch or him taking out your cannons with your archons stumbling through a probe line.. is very annoying. (I also like sair openings for this reason, since you can camp it on top of your nexus with cannons around it ;p). And expanding without aggression is OK IMO - if the expo is very early, the act of expanding is aggression enough. However, if it's not super early then I agree that it's good to put some pressure while your nexus is warping. hahah :p Welsh always comes up and say 3 cannons whenever possible ^_^ Agree w/ him thou. If Z has some micro he can kill archon/cannon pretty easily :O( Stay calm!  | ||
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CC Rider
289 Posts
i'd like to add something to it if i can. About this part: Countering the Infamous Ultra/Ling--- There are a lot of strategies that can be used against this deadly build… among these include 1) Dark Templar/Corsair—This strategy focuses on zerg’s inability to protect against air allowing you to pick off overlords by killing zerg psi and providing the freedom of using the darktemplar’s cloak 2) Zealot/Archon--- The most common strategy against the Ultra/ling situation. This strategy uses zealots as units to take hits from numerous for zerglings while the archons (and a few High templars) provide the artillery. This situation is a macro-based situation. Whoever wins these Ultra/ling vs Archon/Zealot battles will be able to momentarily hold map control giving about a minute of freedom to take out zerg expos. 3) Archon/Dark Archon--- Although used in a number of famous pro-games, it has remained one of the least popular counters against the ultra/ling situation. Although I have used this strategy quite successfully numerous times, it is a very risky build. The reasoning behind this strategy is to use the Dark Archon’s Maelstorm ability to momentarily freeze parts of the zerg Ultra/ling force, while archons and a few templars take out the zerg army. This is very reliant on the ability to prepare for this build early and to have sufficient Dark archons with good mana count. I want to point out that these three can be used in conjunction with each other, and always are in pro games. What you wrote is correct I'm just adding, for the newbies who are going to benefit from this guide, to not think of this as 'ok i have to do 1, 2, or 3 and they are all mutually exclusive' but rather these are three thrusts you can use, three parts of your one strategy. For example, Nal_Ra makes excellent use of sair/dt, but you are never going to see him making only sairs and dts with nothing else. He will always still be working on the meat or backbone of the toss army, which is zealot/archon with a few goons and hts. It's just that, if he invests in corsairs, then he has this new element to work into his game. But he will never be like "ok i'm going sair/dt" and make only sairs and dts for the rest of the game. For a while this confused me, but I've found through experience the most effective way to use sair/dt is in conjunction with zealot/archon. In the same vein, I don't see archon/da as a strategy in itself that you choose to do either that or zealot/archon. Rather you are going to have a standard army of zealot/archon/goon/ht, and if you want to (in late game when you have enough money) you can start working in DAs. But I wouldn't ever be like ok i'm going to go DA, and make 8 dts morph them into 4 DAs. Rather you do it very gradually. Like at one point you see you have a big army and a lot of money so you research mael and make one DA. Then if things continue going like that you might work in another and another. That is how the pro gamers do it. You often see archon/DA armies at the end of pvz pro games, because the toss has done this, and then in battles lost all the other units except archons and DAs, not because the toss decided ok i'm going archon/da and suddenly made nothing but those units. Besides, gas limitations means zealots are going to be a big part of your army all the time whether you like it or not. BTW, I commend you on the very good advice of being aggressive and not being all scared and expecting to lose. That is 99% of the problem for most toss players struggling with pvz. If you expect to be beaten up and kicked around the map you will be. Don't just be defensive react to the zerg and play on his terms, make him play on yours as well, by harrassment and constant pressure on his exps. That's the most needed pvz advice I think. Good thread. | ||
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BalloonFight
United States2007 Posts
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
Do you use sair/reaver btw? It's a pretty strong build with the right micro, and the gayer way to play pvz  | ||
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BlueIris
Korea (South)107 Posts
I would like to apologize about the confusion that has come from the "Mutalisk Counter" Section within this post. A big thanks to Frozen Arbiter, zulu_nation8, and other contributers who have helped clarify statements in parts of the post. I often add reavers to my archon/ht/zeal mix. I find them effective killers, for basically any ground unit. Late game, with the +25 dmg and heavy spellcaster mix, it's pretty strong. Do you use sair/reaver btw? It's a pretty strong build with the right micro, and the gayer way to play pvz Yes, I use the reaver/sair build quite often actually, but just like any other build, it has its advantages and disadvantages. It isn't quite the gayer way to play pvz, but is rather an efficient, but hard to learn, strategy. ^^ I will post a few of my PvZ replays when I can find the time to do so. I hope that comments about this thread will continue, for my joy of the day has now become to surf TLnet Forums ^^. Thanks again | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On December 12 2006 17:57 BlueIris wrote: Questions to ask: How many hatcheries does zerg have? When is he getting his gas? What tech is he going? Hydra den up? Evolution chamber? How many drones? Seeing a three hatchery with gas and lair points to a tech, but if you see hatcheries with later gas without lair, make sure that you are prepared for a hydra only build. To add to that, these are some things toss players can look for. If zerg builds a lot of sunkens to defend instead of units, it usually means mutalisks since zerg needs to defend vs counter. If zerg is hydra rushing he will usually get gas really early instead of later to research hydra upgrades. Assuming this is all off of 3 hatch and vs one base toss on luna. Early zerg gas, like 15 ish, is ideal for low eco lings to lurker to try to break the expo cannon line OR fast mutalisks but usually zerg won't go mutas if it's a 1 base sair build. Later gas could mean anything but less likely mass hydra or mass lings no lair because it'd be easier for toss to defend. Late lair means zerg is using his gas elsewhere either on hydra upgrade or ling speed. A lot of zergs get a hydra den before lair to make toss think about early hydras, and to protect ovies vs sair. Do not freak out and think this is mass hydras for certain unless you don't see a lair with your sair. An evo with no den means spore. And in the rare case that toss upgrades +1 from one base zerg may or not try to keep up. Don't think mutas for sure because of spire or lurkers for sure because of den. Toss players should be looking at drone count, sunken count, tech timing, everything else except for is it den or spire. Usually if zerg doesn't get a lot of zerglings early and sunkens up it would more likely be mutas than lurkers. Other than that there's really nothing you can see that would give you a sure sign. However that doesn't mean you should just wait and see. If zerg tech is late, expand. Boss the middle. Go for the expo. Don't be static. | ||
mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
PATROL A DT AT EACH EXPO, IT'S RIDICULOUSLY HELPFUL. DTs aren't used nearly enough in PvZ - it forces the zerg to upgrade speed and keep lords with his army at all times to be effective in fights. Don't let his micro consist of attack-move, force him to pay attention so he can't expand and macro as well. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On December 13 2006 07:07 pyrogenetix wrote: oh ok so thats why i suck at pvz i can never stay calm Man you need to just relax it. | ||
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kyari_
Romania558 Posts
On December 13 2006 18:18 zulu_nation8 wrote: Assuming this is all off of 3 hatch and vs one base toss on luna. Early zerg gas, like 15 ish, is ideal for low eco lings to lurker to try to break the expo cannon line OR fast mutalisks but usually zerg won't go mutas if it's a 1 base sair build. Later gas could mean anything but less likely mass hydra or mass lings no lair because it'd be easier for toss to defend. Late lair means zerg is using his gas elsewhere either on hydra upgrade or ling speed. very true, and if you see all those early lings, you should be teching with lurkers in mind anyway. the zerg will play with pressure at first with lings, and so you'll have enough time to tech to archives, but you should definitely scout often right before and right after your expand is finished to check for lurkers. in fact, if you are zealot scouting and you see neither lurker eggs nor hydra, you should probably just forgo psi storm for the moment and get robo + goon range and maybe 5/6 goons (you have two gas now). your speed zeals + cannons will suppress heavy hydra (the dragoons will keep him from playing hit and run at your cannons or at your zeal) long enough for you to research storm, but without goon/ob lurkers will royally fuck you over with a contain. hell, if you dont have enough cannons to protect from surprise mass lurkling, a common thing i see is for them to try to rush everything into the cannons and target them so as to eliminate your detection, and if that happens and you have no observer, your nexus dies. yes, you might be able to manage getting robo after you see an actual lurker, but if you have the observers and dragoons before he gets there, you're that much more ahead of the game. it's complicated, but it's all about good scouting. no advice will work the same way in every game. i said to scout for lurker right before you expand, because if you see any hydra at all you might not be able to expand for a little while longer, especially since its 3 hatch which could mean 3 hatch ling into ling/hydra, and the hydra could easily be graded since he's not getting lurker tech. this will force you to get zealspeed sooner, but that's okay really. i notice im usually getting +1 weapons, speedzeal and storm all within the same 2/3 minute timeframe, and its usually during and right after my expand. the order i get them of course depends on the zerg build, but it's just something i try to keep in mind so i don't forget about them. | ||
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