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PROS:
1) Cheap (200/200, assuming you make vessels anyway as is currently the norm in tvz).
2) Instant (unlike irradiate, EMP doesnt feature a "pre-cast" delay).
3) Can affect more than one defiler (requires luck).
CONS:
1) Fiddly (though less than irradiate, because of area effect).
2) Cost (1.3 irradiates of mana).
3) Can drain your casters as well (vessels, medics) (requires bad luck).
Usage:
1) After you see a defiler perform consume.
2) In or right before (better) big clashes, ideally AFTER he has attack-moved his troops but still BEFORE he casts dark swarm for a nice "lull" effect (possible, because of PRO 2) ).
Non-usage:
1) Away from important points, as the defiler can easly regain his mana (irradiate is obviously better here).
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On September 18 2006 04:50 Zooey wrote:
not instant :/
True, but it's still fast.
The problem with EMP is the initial research cost, plus the fact that the Titan Reactor (energy upgrade) becomes somewhat necessary. The Extra 350+ min/gas research cost makes it costly considering that irradiate can still win, plus the fact that if you EMP a Defiler it just consumes again.
Cool idea, but not practical.
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It been done but only by terrans already winning. Saw Nada do it some long time ago. The zerg just constantly attacked with alot of zerglings with defilers coming up behind and swarming..
The EMP messed things up and it was nice.. But was a lost game for zerg anyway.. It feels a little like TvP lategame when you are winning.
You could mass out in only goliaths to kill his last forces of carriers but instead you do wraith,goliath,ghost,massturret. Just becouse it's a little badass and you will crush him a little bit harder
Also.. If zerg has one last base and a few defilers standing in a group with scourge support nearby you could defensematrix a vessel and suicide to do EMP right before you attack (that was just an example of the sort of situation when it's good)
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Its possible to miss with EMP.
The emp'd defiler can always consume to replenish energy.
With irradiate, the defiler is gone for good.
I think irradiate is better.
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the biggest problems with emp are that a) it has small range and b) it takes forever to shoot the damn thing so it's easily taken down by hydras (or goons for tvp) or the defilers have already moved out of position. also 200/200 IS NOT CHEAP at all and 100 mana is just too much, you're constantly draining your vessels with irradiate. it could be useful in situations where resources are plentifull and you already have many vessels for defense reasons, to emp defilers as he's bringing his army to your defense line and he'll hopefully lose lots before he pulls back.
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Clearly not efficient, but still viable. Only good situation from EMP is probably if you catch the zerg offguard with it and zerg has already attackmoved his troops, and you win a large decisive battle because of no swarm.
Points:
1. Consume makes EMP (almost) worthless, two zerglings for 100 mana and the 200/200 research cost is too easy.
2. It has a travel time, which is why I could never EMP arbiters that were flying into my base to recall. You could miss if defiler moves out of the radius.
3. Irradiate costs 75 mana, and is a sure kill.
4. Has smaller range than Irradiate, therefore increasing chances of being plagued.
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I prefer irradiating defiler instead of the zerg being able to consume lings again
if he has 2-3 defilers in the area within one EMP can make them all useless then its probably better than irradiate in this situation
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I'd say it depends on two things...
1.) The number of vessels you have
2.) How many defilers you can get with 1 EMP
If the defilers are spread out well, it's obviously inefficient, but if you can get say 3 of 3 defilers or even 2 of 3 then it's fairly worth it since in the heat of battle they will be hard pressed to consume and micro their army at the same time. Obviously EMP is not at all effective if you're not in the heat of battle (since then they can just consume more lings/hydras meanwhile you just wasted a lot of energy that could be better spent on irrad).
I don't think anything I'm saying here is "deep." Just use common sense in terms of knowing when to use it. I see way to many people get an idea stuck in their head that something is or isn't viable and then they totally get a one track mind about it.
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On September 18 2006 05:22 Patriot.dlk wrote:
It been done but only by terrans already winning.
Exactly. That's why i'm suggesting it.
Regarding the cost, you don't climb a separate tech tree to get there and 200 gas = 1 vessel less (more or less). The energy upgrade will benefit your irradiates as well, but i don't think its absolutely necessary to get it, because you're not likely to use EMP more than 3-4 times in the entire game (the point here is that it can be cruical in deciding a battle).
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
Example:
Here is a game I played one of these days. I still suck at tvz (more so when i don't know the map), but as far as illustrating the point goes, the EMP-ing happens around the 20-th minute mark around the center, just imagine a larger terran army there (quite possible to achieve if one does not suck).
http://download.yousendit.com/39A1D6C8721EBC09
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Belgium6766 Posts
Actually I'm not sure if Nada won that game
It was YATGK msl final vs gorush on luna
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On September 18 2006 08:22 Xeofreestyler wrote:
Actually I'm not sure if Nada won that game
It was YATGK msl final vs gorush on luna
Nada lost. It was one of the closest tvz ever.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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But it was still a freakin sweet game, that had the medic block + EMP thing right? badass
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Netherlands19129 Posts
If EMP had more range it would be a cool skill, especially vs toss tbh.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
yea nada lost that game. nevertheless it was one of the best games ever. emp is interesting though. haha
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On September 18 2006 09:36 Nyovne wrote:
If EMP had more range it would be a cool skill, especially vs toss tbh.
Id be happier if it was an instant explosion. I just hate the traveling time.
Specially with Battle.net lag makes it exceptionally hard to target a unit that is moving.
EMP rarely prevent other spell casters from casting the spell.
For example, if u shoot it on a defiler that is stationary and then charge, its ok. However, if the Z is charging, you cant prevent the swarm, its gonna come much faster than the EMP.
same thing with protoss army... Youre fighting protoss, then u see the arbiter coming, you shoot EMP, but the arbiter casts stasis before the EMP hits >_<
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
makes more sense to just irradiate (kill) the damn defiler and risk it getting a swarm off. EMP is great vs toss.. but vs zerg I dont think its really worth the cost.
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I saw NaDa use EMP but that was about it......IMO I still don't think its worth it
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United States5262 Posts
I thought NaDa lost against GoRush in that game?
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On September 18 2006 10:56 jkillashark wrote:
I thought NaDa lost against GoRush in that game?
Yes, he lost...
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in some cases it's definately worth it, like when the zerg just is about to perform a big attack.
An emp will take away the swarms in the attack, and chances are all zerg units will just die-.-
Irradiated defilers still cast swarms
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also i never see people use emp against carriers.
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This seems like a perfect place to mention it, --'' why not tanks with 3 attack upps zvt? Doesn't it hit burrowed units(under swarm of course) with the third attack upgrade?
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its good in the middle of an attack because in the time it takes him to consume enough to get a swarm up alot of shit can die. otherwise irad is far better.
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On September 18 2006 13:36 Drowsy wrote:
This seems like a perfect place to mention it, --'' why not tanks with 3 attack upps zvt? Doesn't it hit burrowed units(under swarm of course) with the third attack upgrade?
unless this was sarcasm i don't see any reason for it to.
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looks more like honest ignorance than sarcasm.
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Use it.
It's not gunna hurt u lol..
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I try to
On September 18 2006 14:46 YoiChiBow wrote:
Use it
sometimes.
Still I rarely see it done by famous players, who instead, let themselves being pushed around by dark swarm.
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I'm not sure if this is true, but the few times I've seriously tried to employ EMP.. it seemed like the vessel had to get way way way too close to the target area. And it's easy to miss.
Does EMP effect burrowed units?
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On September 18 2006 05:25 Gandalf wrote:
The emp'd defiler can always consume to replenish energy.
With irradiate, the defiler is gone for good.
I think irradiate is better.
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irrad only cost 75 mana xD and does lasting dmg 
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United States10774 Posts
ya nada lost. it was that pimp game on luna (nada @ 7, gorush @ 11) and nada does the EMP thing + medic wall verses like 14 ultra + lings + defilers...
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well, emp wont kill the defiler :\
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Where can I get the NaDa GoRush game plz?
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On September 18 2006 19:28 Night[Mare] wrote:
well, emp wont kill the defiler :\
Yes, but it might kill many of the zergs other units, who no longer have a swarm.
Who cares about one lonely defiler if you have the chance to take out his entire force?
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i think the only rela use for it is when the defilers are at your base and dark swarms there could result in buildings being destroyed.
if the defilers are far away enough from your base, you can irradiate and just run your army away.
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I think EMP is awesome and I need to start using it heaps. Firstly the E key is far closer to the shift key, so cloning emping is very easy to do unlike cloning irradiate which requires better accuracy with the keyboard.
You could use it in situations like if his units are sitting around in the middle, you scan the defilers then emp and at the same time you get your armys to start moving forward to attack. He might not notice your vessel at all and when he notices "Units under attack" sound or whatever he'll be confused about the 0 energy of his defilers. You can retreat if he has consumed enough, but in the confusion of it all you can irradiate his defilers.
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actually you can't say the "E" key is that much closer.just use one finger and press "I" and the other press shift on other side.
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an irradiated defiler can still do swarm. watch the pros and they make use of the dying defiler. consume takes at least two or three seconds. so in some cases when fractions of seconds matter, emp is preferred. but yeah... unless your pro, save the emp for toss.
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Actually, come to think of it, why don't you see emp used all that much against tosses? Im geussing many times, progamers don't wanaa tech that much?
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On September 19 2006 06:06 Evilmonkey. wrote:
Actually, come to think of it, why don't you see emp used all that much against tosses? Im geussing many times, progamers don't wanaa tech that much?
In tvp the cost is an issue, since you may even have to even start from starport, making it starport + control tower + science facility + EMP research + vessels = a lot of resources.
I don't have the exact figures at hand, but in terms of gas i think it is around 550 only to have the buildings and the resarch and then you add 225 for each vessel you make.
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Well the only time I consider TvP EMP viable(P's point of view) is if I get a lot of archons and HT's or Sairs
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On September 19 2006 00:29 HellAngel wrote:
actually you can't say the "E" key is that much closer.just use one finger and press "I" and the other press shift on other side.
Thats still harder to get because most people are used to staying around the left side for control and the 12345 numbers. I find it far easier to do clone EMP than clone irradiate.
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Geez...why is this discussion still happening?
It's effectiveness is circumstantial. Obviously you're going to research irradiate first, but if you've already got a bunch of vessels floating around and plenty of spare gas, then it's fine to upgrade EMP as well. Whether or not you use it after upgrading depends on whether or not you get a good chance to use it.
And you aren't necessarily winning just because you have a bunch of vessels. NaDa vs Gorush should be proof of that....
Uhm...why are you getting lots of archons PvT? Archons take max damage from everything. EMP is great, however, for arbiters and even carriers (cut the hp down almost half).
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On September 18 2006 05:25 Gandalf wrote:
Its possible to miss with EMP.
The emp'd defiler can always consume to replenish energy.
With irradiate, the defiler is gone for good.
I think irradiate is better.
yeah definitly. I tried it many times but irradiate is a lot better.
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On September 19 2006 21:35 Mortality wrote:
Uhm...why are you getting lots of archons PvT? Archons take max damage from everything. EMP is great, however, for arbiters and even carriers (cut the hp down almost half).
Notice the if?
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EPT
