EPTRep:
http://rapidshare.de/files/30250716/Rusty_L_ZvT_Mist3rio.rep.html
He went scourge/expo and had me beat in lings. I know my zvz needs a lot of work, but my question is what to do in this particular situation. Switch to hydra and expo?
Thanks
! [H] ZvZ Help (Rep Posted)
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Rustymatin
United States24 Posts
Rep: http://rapidshare.de/files/30250716/Rusty_L_ZvT_Mist3rio.rep.html He went scourge/expo and had me beat in lings. I know my zvz needs a lot of work, but my question is what to do in this particular situation. Switch to hydra and expo? Thanks | ||
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Rustymatin
United States24 Posts
 just bumpin this if anyone wants to point me in the right direction | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
If the zerg goes scourge expo (presumably 3 hatch?) You need to have a well timed attack, that will give you the one opening you need, at least that is how i handle it. Do your standard 2 hatch in base muta build, i recommend 12 gas 11 pool and than lair first to second hatch. This is the korean style and it forces the other Z to respond to your fast lair by either sporing or transitioning away from what they intended to do ie: macro hatch. If you can work your way into the situation where you are now massing and he is starting that third hatch with a scourge/ling force it is essential to have this timed well, i naturally do and you can as well if you play/practice hard. Mass up to what is usually around 10 mutalisks with a ling force (usually naturally inferior but that is ok). Mass up and move to the choke where the hatch is about to be finished/is just finished, you are going to want to mass up using a mineral stack (my preferred method). His scourge force will now come at your mutas select "a" and move into the cloud, typically the scourge will kill / damage all the muta except 3-4. At this point you need to be rallying your 2 hatches to the choke and making mutas as you have 100/100 and ling with the left over minerals. Use the remaining mutalisks to hit the lings OR go after the drones at home, whichever the situation more asks for. If you are able to have a nearly comparable ling force, go after them. If you are far behind on those, you are going to need a huge macro attack to get the win, so go after the drones. It is at this time that i usually begin my 3rd hatch at my expo. Its been a long time since i have lost to a ling/scourge build because my timing vs it is typically very very good. This should give you a general idea of how to do it, if you have excellent micro you can even slaughter this build by picking off scourge, i lack that micro so i tend to focus on timing. | ||
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
i didnt watch rep either but as incontrol said, tech quick and pressure to keep him from massing drones. If he makes a few sunks to do so, then you just go straight for your 3rd hat at expo and can try to do a little harass simultaneously to close the gap between your econ. | ||
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Orchid
United States71 Posts
if not what do you usually do? | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
But a very standard safe bo for me in zvz is 12 gas, 11 pool drone to 13, make lair 6-8 ling depending on what hes doing. From there i second hatch before i make spire and go to a standard game from there. Typically, it isnt so mucha faster spire as it makes the opponent react in a less than friendly macro way. They can panic and make spore or go all in with ling, or they risk getting a muta at their drones early. I am typically very very good at zvz and this is my standard opening. | ||
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oddeye
Canada716 Posts
Also vs mass hydra what grade should I get for my muta and ling. Armor ling and attack muta? Should I expand and sunk whore and whenever he move out I rape his main? What about evo +1 attack ling into scourge if ling fail? You seems to say that spore isn't very good, I think you need it in many situation no? Oh and do you spread your lord all over the map? Cause you risk getting them raped but then you also might get the vision of incoming mutalisk. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
Versus hydra, get two evo chambers and upgrade attack and carapace, because he'll be doing the same thing with his hydras. Attack on muta if you can afford it. Put about 2 sunkens per group of hydra he has, and flank with your lings and muta. Harass his min line and don't let him secure an expansion, but try not to lose ANY mutas until you have 2 groups or so, at which point you want to try and raze his den, lair, spire, and drones. +1 evo chamber isn't as strong as it used to be because more people are teching to spire faster. There's only a few seconds where your +1 lings are fighting his unupgraded lings before his mutas start coming, and muta splash > +1 lings. Scourge ling isn't a good counter to mutas; it's actually a tempo trick where you scourge his overlords to stop him from producing mutas or lings while you overpower him with lings. Spore isn't necessarily a bad thing to have, but it's static defense, and it costs a lot more than any other static defense in the game to make. You need an evo chamber, a drone, a creep colony, and the mins to morph the spore. An evo chamber isn't part of the linear tech tree, so unless you're getting it already, it costs extra. If you have good micro and know where his force is at all times, you don't need spore; use that money on lings or drones and fight his muta when they try to harass. If you've got equal numbers, you should have the advantage, because they have to retreat or face reinforcements, and those 2 or 3 drones they killed because you didn't spend money on spore can be replaced by that same money you saved, AND you killed some of his muta. ZvZ is my forte, but if control gives advice, listen to him over me. | ||
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On August 30 2006 13:20 oddeye wrote: Hey incontrol, typically I have problem with 12exp 11pool when I decided to play it safe myself (which is 12hatch11pool). They'll tech as fast as me and will go muta/scourge making me lose in the long run because he can get scourge and as much muta as me. Also vs mass hydra what grade should I get for my muta and ling. Armor ling and attack muta? Should I expand and sunk whore and whenever he move out I rape his main? What about evo +1 attack ling into scourge if ling fail? You seems to say that spore isn't very good, I think you need it in many situation no? Oh and do you spread your lord all over the map? Cause you risk getting them raped but then you also might get the vision of incoming mutalisk. First of all 12 hatch 11 pool IN base is bad overall. It is nice if you catch them in a 12 pool build or perhaps survive a 9pool and have the advantage of macro ling, other than that i think its inferior. If your going to 12 hatch, make it a 12 expo. vs mass hydra get +1 muta attack, than +2 muta attack, no need to upgrade lings. If they go lurker, and make as few as 2-4 lurkers those +1 lings are completely useless so I recommend focusing on huge mutalisk swarms that keep the hydralisk Z in his main until he spores. By than you should have expanded so that you have at least 3 geysers. From there you can overwelm the Hydralisk force. +1 ling with scourge combo can be great. I dont do it as much because the style doesnt suit me but ive seen it done very nicely. No real advice here, just make sure to keep the pressure on them with scourge, if he is allowed space to mass a mutalisk cloud your scourge (unless vastly outnumbering the mutas) will be relatively uneffective. If it becomes a stagnant economy game switch to muta as well. Your +1 ling force can come in handy as a huge counter or a nice overwhelming attack even with an inferior air force. Spore is fine, just not in the ways alot of Z users use them. If your able to hit the opponent with lings but are behind in air force making a spore should be used as a complete desperation move. The multiple drones AWAY from minerals to make spore is detrimental and shouldnt be done unless there is no other way to win. Late game zvz its fine obviously, but its not something to just "do" for no induced reason. I spread ovies around a fairly loose perimeter of my base. Yes they can die, but seeing a muta raiding party or a scourge cloud ahead of time gives the precious time necessary to organize and react. | ||
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