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Hi there! I just started playing terran about 3 months ago and found it a little difficult to get good walls in TvP. Either the guides are incomplete leaving a couple of positions or they simply include walls for Fighting Spirit 1.2. Liquipedia e.g. displays a wall that isn't zealot tight anymore although it is SCV-tight on the 1 o'clock position (most people simply test with SCVs and rush to the conclusion that if the wall is SCV-tight it is zealot tight, which is in fact not true). Since I went on a personal quest to find walls I felt comfortable with, I thought I'd simply share them with you guys. These walls might not be optimal in all ways but they at least are guaranteed to fill their purpose.
Main walls using relevant buildings, that are tight against protoss units but have at least one gap where marines can go in/out while a zealot/dragoon/dt or such, cannot.
+ Show Spoiler +Main Wall TvP 1 o'clock ![[image loading]](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iFY2IxMeFyc/URlKwVvzqXI/AAAAAAAAADA/t2iCruu863U/w493-h370-n-k/FS%2BTvP%2B1.png) Main Wall TvP 5 o'clock ![[image loading]](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LaneGrwza4c/URlKwguSYrI/AAAAAAAAADU/psgHosHtLSw/w470-h352-n-k/FS%2BTvP%2B5.png) Main Wall TvP 7 o'clock Main Wall TvP 11 o'clock ![[image loading]](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WbdvukCxqcM/URlKwvHOq2I/AAAAAAAAADQ/KbtXT-EAFpA/w470-h352-n-k/FS%2BTvP%2B11.png)
Walls outside the natural that might be useful when securing a third expansion. These walls are walls that I never use before I plan to take my third expansion since before that the natural choke is easier defended. If one desires to wall the natural choke I advice to use a barracks and a engineering bay, and at some locations a supply depot as well. You might also want to consider just making a dragoon tight wall on this position until you can wall off the bridge. When walling off the bidge I have left a gap somewhere where all terran units fit through (dragoons as well) so that you don't have to lift your buildings to run out with vultures etc. This gap is marked by a siege tank on the pictures and can in my experience be covered with a turret if one wants to make the walls dragoon tight.
Also some of these walls I have added an extra supply depot (on one side) making the wall zealot tight. Though I usually don't make the supply depot I have found that it is possible to, if one has an scv nearby and scouts an incoming attack, you can wall it off temporarily. Also filling each wall's gap with vultures during an attack while keeping your tanks further away works well for me. Turrets and floating buildings covering the supply depots is definitely needed to survive really large attacks, as well as the invaluable defense of mines. These are just my ideas.
Another thing to note is that these walls are not made for ultra turtles since supply depots have limited health and will not hold off everything.
+ Show Spoiler +Natural Bridge Wall TvP 1 o'clock Zealot tight in this layout. As previously noted I prefer to add the supply making it tight in case of emergency. ![[image loading]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7I7ePVRrzkk/URlKu5gwLVI/AAAAAAAAACY/m3nabxMtGpA/w385-h288-n-k/FS%2BNAT%2B1%2BTvP.png) Natural Bridge Wall TvP 5 o'clock with a gap for tanks only on the left. ![[image loading]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w7XNPmdfgJM/URlKvolD_RI/AAAAAAAAACw/m2sIALagIvw/w470-h352-n-k/FS%2BNAT%2B5%2BTvP.png) Natural Bridge Wall TvP 7 o'clock with a gap for tanks only on the top. ![[image loading]](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-FKi-XelY32g/URlKwOa0WyI/AAAAAAAAAC4/gQ9ArO3rCXE/w470-h352-n-k/FS%2BNAT%2B7%2BTvP.png) Natural Bridge Wall TvP 11 o'clock Zealot tight with the optional supply depot on the top. ![[image loading]](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fiueBMPmLN4/URlKvlpAw1I/AAAAAAAAAC0/bG2BVflMjgE/w469-h352-n-k/FS%2BNAT%2B11%2BTvP.png)
Third expansion walls that cover the other opening of your expansion. These all have a gap where marines fit through while zealots do not.
+ Show Spoiler +Third Expansion Outside Wall TvP 6 o'clock ![[image loading]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CDuh-o0DicI/URlKuPhRzKI/AAAAAAAAACM/5ZhY9bPH-Wg/w385-h288-n-k/FS%2B3rd%2B6%2BTvP.png) Third Expansion Outside Wall TvP 9 o'clock ![[image loading]](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cTciSotNv-w/URlKu0G5CjI/AAAAAAAAACg/eIq9LHuZ9tc/w385-h288-n-k/FS%2B3rd%2B9%2BTvP.png) Third Expansion Outside Wall TvP 3 o'clock ![[image loading]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-YqeEFGCTSQg/URlKuJgbThI/AAAAAAAAACI/V3nBvtwB6r4/w385-h288-n-k/FS%2B3rd%2B3%2BTvP.png) Third Expansion Outside Wall TvP 12 o'clock ![[image loading]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gFAjHR0ONeA/URlKuaIWLhI/AAAAAAAAACc/9sYdZDpLBJ0/w639-h582-p-k/FS%2B3rd%2B12%2BTvP.png)
Just what I'm using right now. I'd be happy to update this with ideas following the criteria that an image is included.
Reference to the liquipedia wall that is in fact not tight: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/index.php?title=File:FightingSpiritWallin1.png&filetimestamp=20100213070617
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This is great. Walling off the bridge is an excellent way to be immune to timing attacks. I actually think that there is absolutely no reason to not wall off when you go fast upgrades and a fast third, and the Protoss goes for a timing attack, like the zealot dragoon single stasis timing (which Bisu did a lot). If you have a good wall, it helps so much. These walls are better than simply putting down an engineering bay and a barracks, because they're very effective vs zealots. With these walls, you can just take your third and macro up safely.
It's especially important to build a zealot tight wall at the third base, and so many people refuse to do it for no legitimate reason.
The main base walls are nice, too.
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yeah I played games against these walls, they are in fact good
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Great walls! Hopefully our Terran friends can learn from this. One question: I noticed some of the Terrans I play with float their Engineering Bays to their 3rd to help wall it off. I feel like EBays with Depots are not zealot tight in some placements. Is this recommended? Or should EBays remain in the air to spot drops/arbiters?
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since I am by no means a good player enough to answer any questions related to gameplay, I will give you my view on this from a walling and theoretical point.
I don't see the use of having an ebay on a third other than possibly making the wall harder to kill with its more hitpoints, but killing one of the supply depots next to it makes it just the same as any of these. I view it like this:
1. There are only a few buildings that terrans can have floating for scouting purposes: use them. They are also nice for an "on-the-move" simcity to follow a push or give vision for tanks. One can also cover turrets/weak parts of the wall with it, which I find can be nice on some of the bridge walls. If one puts up the panic-depot to make the bridge wall tight, floating an ebay over the building supply is never a bad idea if it happens to be nearby.
2. Most pro replays I've checked for walls use their expendable buildings to scout and they probably know more than we do.
3. Terran mains are often filled with buildings that can easily be your enemy in case of recalls/rallypointing, save some space by putting some depots in walls. This is quite important on other maps with smaller mains (e.g. neo forte).
4. Recalls often kill supply depots, having a couple not in the main is something I like.
5. It is a new building to learn how to wall with, I just like to keep it simple. (although I do occasionally use it for other walls)
6. I've found that it is hard to get some acceptable replacement of the supply depots that is still tight on the thirds of FS when using an ebay. Maybe someone can enlighten me on this in case there is a super good one, and a reason for it?
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I never thought to wall at the bridge... This is a good idea lol. Thanks !
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As others have said, pretty damn cool walling off the bridge outside your nat. Never thought of that, and imagine it's gotta be really nice if you're teching or taking a quick third. Huge thanks for pics of walling the third as well, I've always felt uncertain off where exactly the depots are supposed to go.
Personally I feel really uncomfortable with completely walling your main off -- it's probably just personal preference, but anyway. What I mean is that the times I've been up against really early zealot pressure (which, admittedly, has happened like 2~ish times), just 1 rax and a supply next to each other has been sufficient to micro my marines. Meanwhile, the depots in the wall feel like they'll either be a target for goons, and/or acting like a bottleneck for my factory units.
As I said though, I haven't been in those situations too often, so I'm not saying that my thinking is necessarily correct here. For some reason every protoss I'm up against play 2 gate obs and aren't able to put on pressure in the early game.
Maybe some other people could shed a little light on this? It's actually something I've been thinking about for a while now
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What you're talking about is what is sometimes referred to as the ghetto bunker, a gap where marines can walk through while zealots can not. This gap can be made with several combinations and is usually sufficient to handle a zealots or two. However it does give the opposing player a chance to get scv kills, which a wall does not. And if combined with solid toss micro the ghetto bunker will not be enough sometimes. i prefer to simply not take that risk. Plus, if you are opening with siege expand there is no acceptable reason not to wall. Also a few goon shots on the wall is better than on your scvs  I mean What happens if you open siege expo and he goes the oh so comon 10/15 gate and you only have the ghetto bunker? Not a fun game. What about dts? Not being comfortable with walls as a low level terran will not make you a happy person after your first 10 games.
There is really no reason not to wall imo. Just laziness if the wall is open for marines like mine are you can with an fd fend off an early goon by simply walking them out. Also another great thing is to start building the second supply with the barracks scv just to hide your tech.
Another thing to note if you really like the ghetto bunker is that there are plenty of ways in which two buildings provide zealot openings etc. it is all written in the terran building placement thread in recommended threads. It is ofc easier than learning all map walls but i think on low level a wall will help you greatly. I've had games already more than 10 where dts/zealots come to my base early, see a tight wall and then the opponents leave.
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You can also make a wall in the natural with a rax and a cc on some positions, making it easier to rax expand. I'm sure you can do it on 7, and maybe on 1.
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This is really cool , and thanks for this guide on different walloffs on FS, really nice. But I am almost 100% sure this would just help a protoss in the long run, it would make 10-15 gate super effective, and they can just run around that wall at your 3rd and then you are basically in a lot of trouble. But 10-15 gate would kill the depots really easily because of there positioning, and also it would be difficult to wall off vs proxy 2 gate because the probe could just throw down a pylon and the timing comes kind of early , this is my opinion from someone who cheeses a lot and has seen people try this wall off many times.
Nice job and thanks ;]
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walling bridge doesn't make much sense I can tell you why
1) it tells your opponent you are being defensive -> he can expand like crazy
2) you will have to kill it later + annoying to get units out if you decide not to
3) it's FS, already it's a bridge and your third is easy to simcity.
I can see this being more useful on very open maps like sniper ridge, but terrans mostly already use this in high level on those strange maps.
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Wow this is really useful!
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On February 13 2013 10:37 GGzerG wrote:
This is really cool , and thanks for this guide on different walloffs on FS, really nice. But I am almost 100% sure this would just help a protoss in the long run, it would make 10-15 gate super effective, and they can just run around that wall at your 3rd and then you are basically in a lot of trouble. But 10-15 gate would kill the depots really easily because of there positioning, and also it would be difficult to wall off vs proxy 2 gate because the probe could just throw down a pylon and the timing comes kind of early , this is my opinion from someone who cheeses a lot and has seen people try this wall off many times.
Nice job and thanks ;]
The walls are not supposed to be placed at the same time TT, so there is no running around walls here. I have at least never seen any terran place walls like that. If I make a wall at my third, I have a wall at my bridge as I wrote about when discussing bridge walls. Usually when a 10/15 hits it hits at either 4:25, being when range finishes or it is at 5:00 when you have 7 goons. If I have my third at 5 minutes, I would probably die to a lot of things and I don't think that is very common. Hence your point about the walls on thirds is irrelevant. If I on the other hand am on a map with a ramped main and a wall, I am ahead. I expect you already know that all a 10/15 usually does vs a walled main with a ramp is delay the expansion and force some repair on the wall. It's not like your goons can stand shooting at the wall for that long anyways having up to three siege tanks shooting at them at the same time. All you have to do is position your tanks, and make sure you don't skimp on SCVs when deciding how many to repair the wall.
On February 13 2013 13:13 dRaW wrote:
walling bridge doesn't make much sense I can tell you why
1) it tells your opponent you are being defensive -> he can expand like crazy
2) you will have to kill it later + annoying to get units out if you decide not to
3) it's FS, already it's a bridge and your third is easy to simcity.
I can see this being more useful on very open maps like sniper ridge, but terrans mostly already use this in high level on those strange maps.
so to answer the list from my perspective:
1. I can sincerely hope that you are right on this. I use bridge walls to be able to have the smallest number possible of tanks defending any timing pushes/all-ins and the highest possible of vultures. I also use this when I'm playing the flash style. If my opponent will take this precaution as a sign of a turtle I don't mind, I might use it to my advantage.(Isn't it better for the protoss to scout with observers if I am ECO or AGGRO?).
2. The bridge walls all contain at least one hole big enough for a siege tank and a building that can be floated when you push out. You only wall them off completely if an attack is incoming to block zealots, and then after the attack you cancel/kill the depot. The walls where this is possible I have added a supply depot to show where the panic-depot is supposed to go down. In practice however there is always a hole in the wall and sometimes two when a building is floated. I like to rally-point vulture-factories outside the wall and tanks inside until I want to push out to make sure it isn't too clumped behind the wall.
3. There is no reason not to make it harder as I see it for 2 base all-ins etc. to work. As a terran, using small amounts of units to defend at certain times can be crucial. This wall requires a LOT less units to defend with than the bridge alone. Your tanks are blocked by 2 vultures instead of possibly 6. All in all, these walls are meatgrinders but you have a point here: they require extra time to get right, adding 4 more walls to the other 8. This wall is the least important one and is more than the others a matter of taste. The bridge is hard to take as it is too.
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On February 12 2013 19:13 Jaevlaterran wrote:There is really no reason not to wall imo. Just laziness if the wall is open for marines like mine are you can with an fd fend off an early goon by simply walking them out. Also another great thing is to start building the second supply with the barracks scv just to hide your tech.
if you're going to open fd its much better to just simcity instead of wall. your factory will be faster.
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On February 13 2013 21:08 kade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 19:13 Jaevlaterran wrote:There is really no reason not to wall imo. Just laziness if the wall is open for marines like mine are you can with an fd fend off an early goon by simply walking them out. Also another great thing is to start building the second supply with the barracks scv just to hide your tech. if you're going to open fd its much better to just simcity instead of wall. your factory will be faster.
This is the liquipedia version of a normal FD:
9/10 - Supply Depot
12/18 and 250 minerals - Barracks and Refinery
13/18 - Scout
@100% Refinery - 3 SCVs on gas at 88 Gas take 2 SCVs off
15/18 - Supply Depot
16/26 - Factory
16/26 - Marine
@100% Factory - Machine Shop and put two SCVs back on Gas
@100% Machine Shop - Tank, upgrade Mines
@100% Tank - attack and build Vulture
@400 minerals - expand
Place the first supply depot on the wall. Place the barracks on the wall. Start the supply with the barracks scv to make a tight wall when you have 100 minerals after refinery. Finish the supply depot. Place the factory. How does this change the factory timing?
Making a wall when doing FD changes very little. At least this build order is unchanged. But there are plenty of variants of FD, I mean liquipedia lists 4 different FDs.
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Wow i didn't know you could seal the third expo off with such a set up. Thanks for this tip and showcase.
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On February 14 2013 01:01 Jaevlaterran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 21:08 kade wrote:On February 12 2013 19:13 Jaevlaterran wrote:There is really no reason not to wall imo. Just laziness if the wall is open for marines like mine are you can with an fd fend off an early goon by simply walking them out. Also another great thing is to start building the second supply with the barracks scv just to hide your tech. if you're going to open fd its much better to just simcity instead of wall. your factory will be faster. This is the liquipedia version of a normal FD: 9/10 - Supply Depot 12/18 and 250 minerals - Barracks and Refinery 13/18 - Scout @100% Refinery - 3 SCVs on gas at 88 Gas take 2 SCVs off 15/18 - Supply Depot 16/26 - Factory 16/26 - Marine @100% Factory - Machine Shop and put two SCVs back on Gas @100% Machine Shop - Tank, upgrade Mines @100% Tank - attack and build Vulture @400 minerals - expand Place the first supply depot on the wall. Place the barracks on the wall. Start the supply with the barracks scv to make a tight wall when you have 100 minerals after refinery. Finish the supply depot. Place the factory. How does this change the factory timing? Making a wall when doing FD changes very little. At least this build order is unchanged. But there are plenty of variants of FD, I mean liquipedia lists 4 different FDs.
Well of course, you always get less mining time when your SCVs have to travel to where they're going to build...
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On February 14 2013 04:02 traceurling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 01:01 Jaevlaterran wrote:On February 13 2013 21:08 kade wrote:On February 12 2013 19:13 Jaevlaterran wrote:There is really no reason not to wall imo. Just laziness if the wall is open for marines like mine are you can with an fd fend off an early goon by simply walking them out. Also another great thing is to start building the second supply with the barracks scv just to hide your tech. if you're going to open fd its much better to just simcity instead of wall. your factory will be faster. This is the liquipedia version of a normal FD: 9/10 - Supply Depot 12/18 and 250 minerals - Barracks and Refinery 13/18 - Scout @100% Refinery - 3 SCVs on gas at 88 Gas take 2 SCVs off 15/18 - Supply Depot 16/26 - Factory 16/26 - Marine @100% Factory - Machine Shop and put two SCVs back on Gas @100% Machine Shop - Tank, upgrade Mines @100% Tank - attack and build Vulture @400 minerals - expand Place the first supply depot on the wall. Place the barracks on the wall. Start the supply with the barracks scv to make a tight wall when you have 100 minerals after refinery. Finish the supply depot. Place the factory. How does this change the factory timing? Making a wall when doing FD changes very little. At least this build order is unchanged. But there are plenty of variants of FD, I mean liquipedia lists 4 different FDs. Well of course, you always get less mining time when your SCVs have to travel to where they're going to build...
on non-korean level is it reeeeeally that important
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On February 14 2013 06:49 Jaevlaterran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 04:02 traceurling wrote:On February 14 2013 01:01 Jaevlaterran wrote:On February 13 2013 21:08 kade wrote:On February 12 2013 19:13 Jaevlaterran wrote:There is really no reason not to wall imo. Just laziness if the wall is open for marines like mine are you can with an fd fend off an early goon by simply walking them out. Also another great thing is to start building the second supply with the barracks scv just to hide your tech. if you're going to open fd its much better to just simcity instead of wall. your factory will be faster. This is the liquipedia version of a normal FD: 9/10 - Supply Depot 12/18 and 250 minerals - Barracks and Refinery 13/18 - Scout @100% Refinery - 3 SCVs on gas at 88 Gas take 2 SCVs off 15/18 - Supply Depot 16/26 - Factory 16/26 - Marine @100% Factory - Machine Shop and put two SCVs back on Gas @100% Machine Shop - Tank, upgrade Mines @100% Tank - attack and build Vulture @400 minerals - expand Place the first supply depot on the wall. Place the barracks on the wall. Start the supply with the barracks scv to make a tight wall when you have 100 minerals after refinery. Finish the supply depot. Place the factory. How does this change the factory timing? Making a wall when doing FD changes very little. At least this build order is unchanged. But there are plenty of variants of FD, I mean liquipedia lists 4 different FDs. Well of course, you always get less mining time when your SCVs have to travel to where they're going to build... on non-korean level is it reeeeeally that important
well if you wanna be precise in your builds, yea
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On February 12 2013 10:28 EchOne wrote:
Great walls! Hopefully our Terran friends can learn from this. One question: I noticed some of the Terrans I play with float their Engineering Bays to their 3rd to help wall it off. I feel like EBays with Depots are not zealot tight in some placements. Is this recommended? Or should EBays remain in the air to spot drops/arbiters?
Either use depots or just use your barracks to wall the 3rd
im not a huge fan of using the ebay, and plus depots being at the top bug zealots out alot more if they try to run up it
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interesting walls, but i really dislike the brigde wall at bottem left
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On February 14 2013 06:49 Jaevlaterran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 04:02 traceurling wrote:On February 14 2013 01:01 Jaevlaterran wrote:On February 13 2013 21:08 kade wrote:On February 12 2013 19:13 Jaevlaterran wrote:There is really no reason not to wall imo. Just laziness if the wall is open for marines like mine are you can with an fd fend off an early goon by simply walking them out. Also another great thing is to start building the second supply with the barracks scv just to hide your tech. if you're going to open fd its much better to just simcity instead of wall. your factory will be faster. This is the liquipedia version of a normal FD: 9/10 - Supply Depot 12/18 and 250 minerals - Barracks and Refinery 13/18 - Scout @100% Refinery - 3 SCVs on gas at 88 Gas take 2 SCVs off 15/18 - Supply Depot 16/26 - Factory 16/26 - Marine @100% Factory - Machine Shop and put two SCVs back on Gas @100% Machine Shop - Tank, upgrade Mines @100% Tank - attack and build Vulture @400 minerals - expand Place the first supply depot on the wall. Place the barracks on the wall. Start the supply with the barracks scv to make a tight wall when you have 100 minerals after refinery. Finish the supply depot. Place the factory. How does this change the factory timing? Making a wall when doing FD changes very little. At least this build order is unchanged. But there are plenty of variants of FD, I mean liquipedia lists 4 different FDs. Well of course, you always get less mining time when your SCVs have to travel to where they're going to build... on non-korean level is it reeeeeally that important
Not super important but it's always nice to optimize your builds where you can
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On the 5 o clock wall, you can stack the supplies on eachother, and move the rax accordingly to the right. That's still tight, because of the white terrain that you can't pass with units. You can't see it here, because the rax is on top of it.
I always need 4 supplies to wall the top-right 3rd, but I'm gonna try that wall. About walling the bridge. Generally, as protoss, attacking terran other than out in the open is a bad idea, and if he wants to attack me at the bridge, by all means, go ahead. I tend to put a turret and 1-2 supplies there, to defend against busts, and it works well. A complete wall is better, but it also obstructs your units. I can see pros and cons, but I definately recommend building a single supply and turret there.
Anyway, I personally never ever wall a ramp main in TvP. In TvZ, walls are useful, but in TvP I just think it's a hinderance.
The build that walls are supposed to deal with is 2 gate zealot builds, and proxy or not, he will go for gas steal, because that's just what protoss does. The gas steal isn't the problem, but if the protoss knows what he's doing he will make sure to pylon your wall too, and when he does that, you're screwed.
On top of that. You need to pull scv's for ages, to repair the wall, which wastes a lot of resources.
The safe way and imo the best way to deal with 2 gate zealot cheese is to just build a bunker in your main, that protects your mineral line and production. Sometimes, you can also follow it up with a 2nd rax, and do a counter with mass rines, especially against proxy gateways. The more he delays his dragoon production, the easier it is to kill him off with a counter attack.
Against less bad builds, like the 2 zealot harass before goon build, a supply + barracks sim city is all you need. Build the Barracks to the right of the CC, if possible. If you keep taking too much damage to that build, just put up a bunker. Since he's not committing to zealots, it puts you slightly behind, but there's not a significant difference.
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You should upload semi walls where terrans use command center + supply+ rax in natural to make powerfull half wall during rax exp. I have seen mong and pros doing it.
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btw the 5oclock wall is should be depo depo in a vertica line instead of diagonal, it safes more space for an army go in and out, and has the same wall. might be not zling tight thou
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On February 14 2013 01:01 Jaevlaterran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 21:08 kade wrote:On February 12 2013 19:13 Jaevlaterran wrote:There is really no reason not to wall imo. Just laziness if the wall is open for marines like mine are you can with an fd fend off an early goon by simply walking them out. Also another great thing is to start building the second supply with the barracks scv just to hide your tech. if you're going to open fd its much better to just simcity instead of wall. your factory will be faster. This is the liquipedia version of a normal FD: 9/10 - Supply Depot 12/18 and 250 minerals - Barracks and Refinery 13/18 - Scout @100% Refinery - 3 SCVs on gas at 88 Gas take 2 SCVs off 15/18 - Supply Depot 16/26 - Factory 16/26 - Marine @100% Factory - Machine Shop and put two SCVs back on Gas @100% Machine Shop - Tank, upgrade Mines @100% Tank - attack and build Vulture @400 minerals - expand Place the first supply depot on the wall. Place the barracks on the wall. Start the supply with the barracks scv to make a tight wall when you have 100 minerals after refinery. Finish the supply depot. Place the factory. How does this change the factory timing? Making a wall when doing FD changes very little. At least this build order is unchanged. But there are plenty of variants of FD, I mean liquipedia lists 4 different FDs.
I prefer 11rax 11gas FD, in which case you build 2nd supply depot after you have put down the factory. you can still make a wall by delaying the first rine so both your tank and 2nd depot are quicker, but it will weaken your earlier FD by 1-2 marine(s). 11/11 is a more agressive FD, while 12 refinery gives you slightly better econ and faster nat CC and is suited for defensive play vs 2 gate without giving up control like siege expand does (allows for a stronger 2fact timing attack vs tech/greed).
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EPT![[image loading]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RkDStTAfEF4/URlKxA0zRuI/AAAAAAAAADY/5Svti7Q_8TE/w480-h360-n-k/FS%2BTvP%2B7.png]Main Wall TvP 7 o'clock)
