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! [G] PvZ Strategy Guide (Written by myself) - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Carnac
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Germany / USA16648 Posts
July 14 2005 04:55 GMT
#21
On July 14 2005 12:21 Teroru wrote:
Until you get to a relatively high level of play, 1 gate builds will not be viable against ur solid zerg opponent. However, the only way to get good with 1 gate builds is to practice them, so i hope that you can find your way.

i don't know how you define "relatively high level of play", i don't play 1v1 much, probably around c0 -b6 level @wgt if i was a bit more active, so i will try giving some advice anyway.
for some reason i personally have the most trouble playing 1 gate builds (except on nostalgia), so yeah it's pretty hard and needs a lot of practice

[...]draw backs include:
- much more expensive
- much slower build time

you forgot that scout without speed upgrade is pretty slow as well, which is one of my dislikes against scouts, i use a scout instead of a corsair sometimes nevertheless

When a player goes stargate tech, he should immidiately follow up with templar tech. Most zergs are aware that this is going to occur, and must wait for overlord speed to take out your expo. Whether you have 8 dt's, 2 dt's, or none, they still need overlord speed to detect them. In my experience, it's been very effective to expand as soon as possible after your initial harass with your air unit. You do not need Dark Templar for the dark templar tech to defend you. If they attack your expansion and you are unable to defend it, cancel it. No harm done. If you wait for your templar tech to finish, and then wait for 2 dt's to finish before even starting your expansion, you have missed out on alot of possible economy.

nice, i actually never thought of expanding before building the dt(s), i will try it out

100% agree with rise. Unless you are adept at PvZ (and therefore won't need this guide) it will be *very* dificult to pull off. However, the only way you get better at fast expansion strategies, is to practice, practice, practice. Just expect to lose alot of the time.

If you are going to fast expand, i would advise experimenting with forge-first builds. These builds are some of the hardest to pull off, but if you manage to get enough experience with them, they can be *very* lethal and almost always viable. If you are going to forge first, you should attempt to offensive cannon their fast expansion 90% of the time. To do this strategy there are some key points that will make this easier:
- Scout with 2 probes. Once you find their base with one, send the other probe to sit at their expansion.
- Build your needed offensive-pylon with your first probe, but go straight to their main and harass with it, so that they have no idea that you are also busy at their expansion with a probe they don't know about.
- Do not build more than 3 cannons, as once you succeed, you will *not rely on your cannon contain*
- A hatchery-in-the-making has a shorter sight range than that of ur pylon. You will be able to build cannons within firing distance, and he will not be able to see them.
- If you can manage it, and sometimes you can't, put the cannons between his ramp and his expansion. This will make your follow up *much* more simple

If your offensive cannons are going to fail (which should be clear before they finish building), cancel them and expand. This build is as safe as any expansion build. However, as mentioned earlier, expansion games are hard. There is too much information to write how to expand 'succesfully', so my suggestion is just to play with it, and to keep the methods mentioned in previous paragraphs in mind.

probably the paragraph i disagree the most with, especially the beginning. i don't think fast expansion is THAT hard, at least i find it easier than 1 gate tech. i feel much more comfortable fast expanding, i have more success with it and i have beaten players with it that i would almost definitely not be able to beat using 1 gate tech.

if you know your opponent a bit and know that he likes to 12 hatch/11 pool go nexus before forge, otherwise go forge first. if you decide to cannon him i don't think you should build more than 2 cannons (as opposed to mora's max of 3), unless you try this choke cannoning..., but it almost never works for me so i'm not advising it:>

first thing you need to know if he hatched or pooled first, if he pooled first don't try any cannon stuff at his base, build 2 cannons at your first pylon (PLACEMENT!) and add the nexus as soon as the money comes in.

there are two (two and a half actually) main follow ups to fast expanding:
- cors reaver, absolutely impossible on some maps, can be deadly on others if used well
- teching HARD HARD HARD to storm (while going +1 attack and robo soon as well)
- teching less hard to storm with constant zeal production out of 2 gates. this can work very well if zerg got too greedy when seeing your fast expansion attempt, he will often feel really pressured if you move out before speed with like 6-8 zeals (rallying gates)

rather build a gate more than a gate less, you have no idea how fast money comes in with a fast expansion

ModeratorHi! I'm a .signature *virus*! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread!
NonYold
Profile Joined April 2004
United States2814 Posts
July 14 2005 05:02 GMT
#22
what are you guys losing to with 1gate builds? i prefer 1gate actually :O
NeverEndingStory
Profile Joined February 2005
446 Posts
July 14 2005 05:30 GMT
#23
I used very often 1 gate opening against zergs too,I had problems when zerg went mass speedlings against my tech and break through my ramp when I had only 3 zels+goon there.
Scouting zerg tech is almost impossible before you got your corsair and he has even few lings before your ramp,I mostly had problems with that speedling mass.

However I am no good toss player and I am nowhere as experienced at PvZ as I am in TvZ so maybe I should not make comments about PvZ openings.
Playing pokah
TreY
Profile Joined March 2004
United States997 Posts
July 14 2005 05:46 GMT
#24
GJ Whore... sorry there wasn't a WCG Ohio this year btw

Nice guide.
Team [LighT]
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
July 14 2005 05:51 GMT
#25
On July 14 2005 12:45 Sorrow_eyes wrote:
yeah, I played neSix one day and he told me and retold me and retold me a millions of times that: PvZ is all about the drones. P kill loads of drone, P won, Z had lot of freedrone unpressured, Z won.
O and lurkercontainment... I recken people nowadays normally go lurk/ling rather than hydra/ling becaues they can get loads of lurks that way. I prefer to use the normal zeal/archon to kill it :D You need to be "control the middle" like a chess game, when he moves out with lurk/ling flank and kill.

rofl at ur disclaimer ^___^


Yeah, and nesix knows what he's talking about. What, P can't win without killing any drones?
Malmis
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Sweden1569 Posts
Last Edited: 2005-07-14 05:58:51
July 14 2005 05:58 GMT
#26
If you are going 2 gate, you won't lose if you don't get any drones, since the zerg needs to spend his larvas on zerglings(and some sunkens). However, with 1 gate, he can power drones like crazy early game;;
To Suport@Bethsoft.com: okay so i completed morrowind.. um, can i have my life back now?
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33723 Posts
July 14 2005 07:20 GMT
#27
On July 14 2005 14:02 NonY wrote:
what are you guys losing to with 1gate builds? i prefer 1gate actually :O

Less solid for ladder play (koreans doing all in builds vs it -,.- like drone drill, mass lings etc at least I think they do, I haven't really 1 gated a very much at all since neogamei)

And yes, expanding before dt is normal, especially since you should have a cannon at your ramp anyways.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
RiSE
Profile Joined April 2004
United States3182 Posts
July 14 2005 07:39 GMT
#28
On July 14 2005 14:46 TreY wrote:
GJ Whore... sorry there wasn't a WCG Ohio this year btw

Nice guide.


<3 Trey, we need to meet up sometime!
heavy hand upon the land, feel it's weight inside you
Mora
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Canada5235 Posts
July 14 2005 07:54 GMT
#29
On July 14 2005 13:55 Carnac wrote:
probably the paragraph i disagree the most with, especially the beginning. i don't think fast expansion is THAT hard, at least i find it easier than 1 gate tech. i feel much more comfortable fast expanding, i have more success with it and i have beaten players with it that i would almost definitely not be able to beat using 1 gate tech.

if you know your opponent a bit and know that he likes to 12 hatch/11 pool go nexus before forge, otherwise go forge first. if you decide to cannon him i don't think you should build more than 2 cannons (as opposed to mora's max of 3), unless you try this choke cannoning..., but it almost never works for me so i'm not advising it:>

first thing you need to know if he hatched or pooled first, if he pooled first don't try any cannon stuff at his base, build 2 cannons at your first pylon (PLACEMENT!) and add the nexus as soon as the money comes in.

there are two (two and a half actually) main follow ups to fast expanding:
- cors reaver, absolutely impossible on some maps, can be deadly on others if used well
- teching HARD HARD HARD to storm (while going +1 attack and robo soon as well)
- teching less hard to storm with constant zeal production out of 2 gates. this can work very well if zerg got too greedy when seeing your fast expansion attempt, he will often feel really pressured if you move out before speed with like 6-8 zeals (rallying gates)

rather build a gate more than a gate less, you have no idea how fast money comes in with a fast expansion



As a zerg player i pray that the protoss will fast expand nearly every game. Again, my perspective is really a balance between thinking like a low-econ zvp player and a pvz player. When they fast expand, the only thing that they can be guarunteed to throw at me is macro. I do not and have not ever feared macro. (The majority of my zvp's consist of my protoss opponent having equal or more bases than i do). When they go fast expand, they're just accellerating into their newbie macro game.

When they fast expand, i can do dual or triple tech, while expanding, while massing drones. I will go mutas, switch to lurker drop, and then have 8 guardians on their ledge by the 11 minute mark.

As for the rest of zergs (being that my play is rare, if not unique) will just expand 4 times and keep u outmacro'd.

At the moment, i seem to have equal success between all the builds i use *except* for fast expansion. Many people consider pvz a 'reactionary' matchup, where u have to respond to what the zerg is doing instead of dictating what the zerg is doing. But i do not believe that to be true. If you fast expand however, you have given complete control over to the zerg player, and u just have to pray that you can react better than they can execute. While i do think very highly of my reactionary abilities, i do not have the faith to choose reaction over dictation.
Happiness only real when shared.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33723 Posts
July 14 2005 08:14 GMT
#30
Sair/reaver mora, sair reaver ;D!!

But I also hate fast expo so ^_^
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
July 14 2005 08:15 GMT
#31
willet has very good pvz with 1 gate build, basically he goes fast +1 with 1 gate and expands while templar tec in the same time pressure with his 3 zealor and 1 goon. I have seen him beat kiwi with his 1 gate build. and we all know kiwi is no push over on his zvp.
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
Keanu_Reaver
Profile Joined March 2003
Djibouti1432 Posts
July 14 2005 08:59 GMT
#32
the 'mehdi' is the bane of all protoss players everywhere, unstoppable
why did the baby cross the road? because it was stapled to the chicken!
GroT
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Belgium3003 Posts
July 14 2005 10:23 GMT
#33
nice thread rise =]
DANCE ALL DAY
RiSE
Profile Joined April 2004
United States3182 Posts
July 14 2005 16:15 GMT
#34
Thanks for the feedback/discussion all
heavy hand upon the land, feel it's weight inside you
Sorrow_eyes
Profile Joined February 2005
United States1007 Posts
July 14 2005 17:12 GMT
#35
On July 14 2005 14:51 -_- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2005 12:45 Sorrow_eyes wrote:
yeah, I played neSix one day and he told me and retold me and retold me a millions of times that: PvZ is all about the drones. P kill loads of drone, P won, Z had lot of freedrone unpressured, Z won.
O and lurkercontainment... I recken people nowadays normally go lurk/ling rather than hydra/ling becaues they can get loads of lurks that way. I prefer to use the normal zeal/archon to kill it :D You need to be "control the middle" like a chess game, when he moves out with lurk/ling flank and kill.

rofl at ur disclaimer ^___^


Yeah, and nesix knows what he's talking about. What, P can't win without killing any drones?


I was implying that if P pressure hard, Z will HAVE to make zerglings or sunks to fend it off, therefore waste his drone/mineral/larvae at the same time. It's basically what i was trying to say. Not directly kill drones no, but to decrease his drone count somehow.
Myacctmessup: People tried to create a Perfect language that the whole world can communicate with out difficulty, that it is universal and easy to learn. Do you hapen to know what language is it? Fireblast: You mean love?
Inj0i
Profile Joined November 2006
8 Posts
June 10 2007 05:37 GMT
#36
what exactly is a cross position?
Taiche *
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
France1963 Posts
June 10 2007 05:40 GMT
#37
Now that was a freakin' huge bump. You might even have created a topic for it, wouldn't have been weirder.
Anyway, being cross-position with your opponent means his main base is at the exact opposite of yours. For example, on LT, 3 and 9 are cross positions.
Manifesto7 Uses ReXplorer, and so should you! : http://repasm.net/rx/
Inj0i
Profile Joined November 2006
8 Posts
June 10 2007 05:42 GMT
#38
o ok so he doesnt scout you right away with ovy and ling rush and thats why you can 1 gate. so should you scout the cross pos right away? and what about being on a 2 person map?
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12816 Posts
June 10 2007 06:03 GMT
#39
On June 10 2007 14:42 Inj0i wrote:
o ok so he doesnt scout you right away with ovy and ling rush and thats why you can 1 gate. so should you scout the cross pos right away? and what about being on a 2 person map?


Understand that since you constantly produce peons, the population is a good timer keeper.

So.. basically you do 8 pylon then scout w/ that probe.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Inj0i
Profile Joined November 2006
8 Posts
June 10 2007 07:07 GMT
#40
duh... =/
but when you scout against zerg do you want to scout your cross position first? and on 2 player maps do you just 2 gate?
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