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Thanks to FA for revising it. <3
** DISCLAIMER **
I am not a professional starcraft player. This brief strategy guide should not be considered as a concrete method of playing pvz but rather my personal experiences with what works and what doesn't. Everyone has their own personal style, and that should be taken into consideration when reading this.
** END DISCLAIMER **
Ah, PvZ. Probably the most art matchup in the game (From the protoss side of things at least  ). It is an insanely complex (and at times tedious) matchup based on timing, micro, and technique. Having some creativity and style helps too.
First off, scout across the map. Your probe should reach the cross position at around 10/11 psi if you made the pylon at 8 psi. The cross position should be the basis for your strategy.
If you see that he's at a cross position, a one gate build is very effective. If not, then add a second gate and prepare to either defend and tech or pressure his expansion.
In the case that he is not cross position from you:
Two Gate Strat:
Once your probe approaches his base, check to see if he expanded (he will have in most cases).Also check to see what he pooled at.
Hatch before pool - In this case you will be able to do some damage with your first zeal. Kill drones, micro it to death, be an asshole with it. If you feel he's skimping on defense/lings after that initial attack (which also serves the purpose of scouting), continue to pressure him with zeals out of two gates. If you don't feel you can do any damage, get about 4-5 zeals and tech. Expand when you feel it's safe.
9 pool - work on defending your ramp. Pump zeals and rally to your ramp, just make sure to secure your ramp and use hold position. Two probes behind a zeal will give the zeal two hit kills, and it will buy you time to produce more zealots. If his 9 pool fails to do damage, he is severely behind in economy. In this case just play solid. But DO NOT allow zerglings to enter your base.
11/12 pool - The key thing in this case is pressuring while teching yourself. Like most situations in pvz, forcing him to waste larvae on lings is the best. You also want to delay his expo alot. Force him to build sunkens and play defense. This way, the zerg won't get the upper hand on you. When he really starts pumping alot of lings then add gas, defend and tech/expo when you feel it's safe.
After any of these openings you should proceed with regular pvz (which will differ depending on the style of the player). Don't forget to add gates after you expand (I prefer 7-8 off two base).
Now for the fun stuff.
One gate build
This is my personal favorite. It takes away the gay/lame/faggish advantage of the protoss not knowing what zerg is doing.
There are many ways to do this build, but my perferred method goes as follows:
8 pylon - 10 gate - 12 gas - 20 core
Pressure with your first zeal and harass drones, keep it alive as long as possible. Next, get about three zealots at your ramp to hold of any lings. At around 20 psi, start your cybernetics core. When that finishes, add your stargate immediately.
If you scout an unusually fast den, get a forge/cannon immediately. The same applies if they have built alot of zerglings.
When you scout with your corsair, react accordingly to what tech he has, and the number of hatcheries he has.
Hydra den (no lair) - I personally enjoy the dt expansion build when reacting to this. after your stargate, your citadel should be added soon after, then immediately a templar archives. All that is required for this is pumping two dark templar. Make sure to scout your cliffs and the surrounding areas for overlords. Once this is done, he can't really touch you until he moves slow overlords (from cross positions) to your natural, or until he gets overlord speed (which requires lair). This should buy you ample time to safely get your nexus running, and to construct cannons. **IMPORTANT NOTE** MAKE SURE TO PLACE CANNONS ALONG YOUR NATURAL CLIFF! ZERG WILL DROP LURKERS THERE AT SOME POINT! **END IMPORTANT NOTE** Quickly get about 6-8 gates and pump units.
Hydra den (lair) - The dt expo build also works here. Just make sure not to forget observers and cannons.
Spire - Instead of dark templars, build two templars to be morphed into archons immediately/two cannons in your main mineral line. Secure your natural expansion, with another 2-3 cannons. At this point you should be very well defended. Constantly keep scouting him to see when he switches to den, and if he's making lurkers or not. In those cases, get a robo and storm as soon as resources permit. You'll need storm to face den tech.
Fast expanding
Unless you are very good (and can determine how and when to use the advantage of fast expand; in which case you wouldn't need to read this), are playing on a map where it is very strong (Azalea), or your opponet sucks ass, I would recommend not doing fast expand builds. If you don't know how to do them right, you will be run over by the zerg. If you decide to do it, 9 on temple is the best spot.
GENERAL
So... I'm contained :/
In the event of lurker containment (and yes, you will be contained at some point in most pvz games) you want to get goons and goon range asap. Observers (duh) and storm are also essential. Experience and timing play a key role in deciding when to break the contain. Just use your head. Decide on when to break it based on the size of his contain. If it's a relatively small contain, break it early and pressure him. If it's a really gay large one, he will usually crumble once his contain is dead.
If you want to be sexy, you can try and use reavers, but be careful, because reavers are difficult to control, and they are a pretty substantial investment. Remember, prod his contain a bit with storm and goon/obs rather than going all in babo style.
Usually the best time to make an attack is right after you break his contain. Take your leftover army and start engaging expansions, you don't have any time to waste. Also, take your mineral only expansion right as your troops are stomping his contain. You will need the extra boost of economy.
Upgrades
As most of you know, +1 attack for zealots is crucial. Two hits by zeals to kill lings instead of three, which makes a *huge* difference. After you get a second gas, add a second forge and start cranking upgrades. You will need them desperately when facing ultra ling.
Templar mana upgrade owns (especially vs hydralisk tech) and is totally worth it.
Harass
Perhaps one of the funnest aspects of PvZ is harassing. This can be done in many, many ways. My personal favorite is the High Templar drop. Just the sound of drones being fried then finally popping is awesome. You can use corsairs to harass his overlords. You should be scouting his expansions with dark templars to try and get some drone/expo kills whenever possible. Be wary of scourge though, they will rain on your parade of drone raping quite soon after you start committing to much harass.
OMG BUT RiSE ULTRA-LING IS SO IMBA!!!!!!111ELEVEN
I would actually have to join the other whiny protosses and agree with this. It's tough, but not impossible to beat. Some good things to do vs ultra ling:
Build lots, and lots, and I mean a fucking shitload of archons.
Dt sair - Sairs kill overlords, dts rape anything and everything else. Enough said. (this is perhaps one of the sexiest ways, but can backfire terribly) This is also probably the best counter to the fast island ---> mineral only turtle into ultra ling build by zerg.
Dark Archon - Maelstrom is a great way to disable the zerg and look totally sexy in the process! Just mix a few in for your troops.
**WARNING**THE ABOVE SHOULD ONLY BE USED BY PEOPLE WHO CAN HANDLE EXTREME SEXINESS. THOSE WHO CANNOT MAY BE AT RISK OF HEART ATTACK OR STROKE IF THIS STRAT IS USED**END WARNING**
Carrier - Both zerglings and ultralisks are unable to attack carriers. Hmmm...
I would only recommend the above if you think you are economically stable enough to support carriers.
Reavers - Buggy and a bitch to control, but can be wildly effective. Just make sure you get good use out of them. When not in a battle, they can also be used to expo kill.
Army Control
Alright, I will make this quite simple for you. Watch IntoTheRain's PvZ reps, then control your units the way he does in the game.
But seriously, practice is key here, you just have to play alot of PvZ, and Control/Micro abilities will come to you.
Expanding
Protoss also has the ability to expand and be gay using cannons. When playing vs lame island expanders, take another main when cash permits and cannon expand it. Cannons/ht on a ramp will really rape zerg's shit to the point it's insanely cost-ineffective for zerg to attack you.
Well, I hope that helped. Happy PvZing!
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A bit simple, but still nice. Read it all.
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Very good guide, I agree with most of the things you say.
However i didn't like the "One gate build" part, not because it was wrong/badly written, but because i don't like 1 gate builds 
Thats all i guess~~~~
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 14 2005 08:35 -_- wrote:
A bit simple, but still nice. Read it all.
Considering the PvZ threads on this forum, this is a very a good guide I think !
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Thanks for comments
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well written indeed. <3 1 gate builds. satiates my inner inherent need to cheese, but isn't really counted as cheese.
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Yes I agree about it all.
Just one thing. The fast expand is very good, and cannongay is very good. Watch Leg do his cannon shit.. I mean its such a good way to be gay
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Alright, I will make this quite simple for you. Watch IntoTheRain's PvZ reps, then control your units the way he does in the game.
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Nice guide, like it ^^
lol @ * ISCLAIMER**
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nice guide, but you give fast exp too little credit t.t
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i have a few things to add if anyone is intereted.
Every protoss player will play slightly different. I am a zerg player, but have recently become a zvp, zvt, and pvz player. I have believed for a long time that PvZ is balanced (at least on a level below professional) and not only balanced, but much easier than TvZ. I play a low-economy Zerg vs Protoss, and feel that i have gained an important perspective on the protoss because of it. I do not rely on overruning my opponent to win games (and yes, i do manage to win games) so when a protoss player does beat me, its because he's playing smart. I take note, being that i am now a PvZ player. So what i have to add are just my perspectives on some of the notes on the above writeup.
Hatch before pool - In this case you will be able to do some damage with your first zeal. Kill drones, micro it to death, be an asshole with it. If you feel he's skimping on defense/lings after that initial attack (which also serves the purpose of scouting), continue to pressure him with zeals out of two gates. If you don't feel you can do any damage, get about 4-5 zeals and tech. Expand when you feel it's safe.
When you have 2 gates vs zerg expand, it is important to keep him from making as many drones as possible. (especially a low economy zerg player). The constant production of zealots is one of the ways to do this (as mentioned by rise in a different paragraph). You need to pressure him with these zealots as much as u can. Force him to make lings. *Never* put your zealots in a position where they can be trapped and killed. Do not engage in a battle - even if u can win it - if you are going to lose the majority of your force. You can avoid ling ambushes/traps by constantly scouting around the map.
9 pool - work on defending your ramp. Pump zeals and rally to your ramp, just make sure to secure your ramp and use hold position. Two probes behind a zeal will give the zeal two hit kills, and it will buy you time to produce more zealots. If his 9 pool fails to do damage, he is severely behind in economy. In this case just play solid. But DO NOT allow zerglings to enter your base.
There are a few followups after the 9pool. You need to make sure to scout after his initial attacks (if you can manage to multitask and scout him while he is attacking you, that's even better). Lurker is a very powerful follow up. Do not continue to pump zealots, as they are useless against lurker. Go some form of tech: reaver, archon, dragoon, whatever. Just make sure u have observers and a unit that's capable of killing lurkers. If he follows his 9pool with a fast expansion *keep pumping zealots*. You'll need to keep him pumping lings instead of drones.
11/12 pool - The key thing in this case is pressuring while teching yourself. Like most situations in pvz, forcing him to waste larvae on lings is the best. You also want to delay his expo alot. Force him to build sunkens and play defense. This way, the zerg won't get the upper hand on you. When he really starts pumping alot of lings then add gas, defend and tech/expo when you feel it's safe.
12pool is one of the most versatile builds, so its hard to really even give a 'general' strat. So i agree with rise on this one. Just keep scouting, keep up the pressure. Expand at the soonest available opportunity.
One Gate Build
Until you get to a relatively high level of play, 1 gate builds will not be viable against ur solid zerg opponent. However, the only way to get good with 1 gate builds is to practice them, so i hope that you can find your way.
Pressure with your first zeal and harass drones, keep it alive as long as possible. Next, get about three zealots at your ramp to hold of any lings. At around 20 psi, start your cybernetics core. When that finishes, add your stargate immediately.
If you scout an unusually fast den, get a forge/cannon immediately. The same applies if they have built alot of zerglings.
When you scout with your corsair, react accordingly to what tech he has, and the number of hatcheries he has.
I would highly advise building a scout over a corsair. This has been debated in another thread, so you will just have to find out what works best for you, but at least give the scout a chance.
- it kills lords *much much faster*
- it has more life, and is therefore capable of scouting their base without fear of dying (just like a corsair)
- it can attack drones, which is, in the case that they make a spore at their expo instead of making hydras, very powerful. You can take out multiple drones before they fend you off
- even if being attacked by hydras, the scout usually has enough life, and does enough dmg, that you can kill the overlord, and escape before death
draw backs include:
- much more expensive
- much slower build time
however, i believe that if you're going to go stargate tech, that you want to make it be as useful as it can be. You've all ready spent the money, time, and tech route, on the stargate, so you might as well spend that little extra cash to make it that much more useful.
Hydra den (no lair) - I personally enjoy the dt expansion build when reacting to this. after your stargate, your citadel should be added soon after, then immediately a templar archives. All that is required for this is pumping two dark templar. Make sure to scout your cliffs and the surrounding areas for overlords. Once this is done, he can't really touch you until he moves slow overlords (from cross positions) to your natural, or until he gets overlord speed (which requires lair). This should buy you ample time to safely get your nexus running, and to construct cannons. **IMPORTANT NOTE** MAKE SURE TO PLACE CANNONS ALONG YOUR NATURAL CLIFF! ZERG WILL DROP LURKERS THERE AT SOME POINT! **END IMPORTANT NOTE** Quickly get about 6-8 gates and pump units
When a player goes stargate tech, he should immidiately follow up with templar tech. Most zergs are aware that this is going to occur, and must wait for overlord speed to take out your expo. Whether you have 8 dt's, 2 dt's, or none, they still need overlord speed to detect them. In my experience, it's been very effective to expand as soon as possible after your initial harass with your air unit. You do not need Dark Templar for the dark templar tech to defend you. If they attack your expansion and you are unable to defend it, cancel it. No harm done. If you wait for your templar tech to finish, and then wait for 2 dt's to finish before even starting your expansion, you have missed out on alot of possible economy.
If you have scouted a 3-4 hatch hydra opening, you will want *many* cannons until your templars arrive. You are not 'gay' for making 10 cannons. If your zerg opponent is going to throw all he has into a 4hatch hydra build, making 10 cannons is a viable (and one of the only available) defenses to it.
This will lead you into the next phase of the game. The zerg has many options at this point, but you will most often see a contain/mass expansion build. This is ok. As soon as your expansion is up and can defend any attacks, you are going to want robo tech. This will give you observers, and more importantly, shuttles. Shuttles are a staple in pvz when you have been contained. You should be constantly harassing with a shuttle (and preferrably 2 or 3 of them if u have the multitasking capabilities). Templar drops should be occurring nonstop. Dark templar drops should also be occuring non-stop. 4zealot drops can also be effective if u do not have any templar or dark templar lef to harras with. Even if ur 4 zealots do not do any direct damage, the time he spends defending is time he has wasted when he could have been expanding more, teching more, and macro'ing more. During this period you should be macroing off of 5-10 gates. If you have the shuttles on the go, you might as well take an island expansion. He will be busy defending your harass, and once u have your island expo up with a few templar, its yours for the rest of the game.
Spire - Instead of dark templars, build two templars to be morphed into archons immediately/two cannons in your main mineral line. Secure your natural expansion, with another 2-3 cannons. At this point you should be very well defended. Constantly keep scouting him to see when he switches to den, and if he's making lurkers or not. In those cases, get a robo and storm as soon as resources permit. You'll need storm to face den tech.
Much the same as a hydra build, you will want to expand at the soonest available opportunity. If they have gone straight to muta tech, you can often expand and get cannons up long before his mutas get there. Do so. If he comes in with too many lings to fend off, cancel your expansion, and restart it at the first available opportunity. Repeat until your archon finishes, and can defend ur expansion without problems. They will often switch to hydra/lurker contain at this point. You will want to play it out as written above. Be wary of scourge. I find it wise to research hallucination at this point. If you are contained and are doing shuttle harass, the hallucination cost is much worth it, as he will have 2 more shuttles to scourge down. This will also put your templars mana to use while being contained, instead of wasting it at 250/250 max.
Fast Expanding
100% agree with rise. Unless you are adept at PvZ (and therefore won't need this guide) it will be *very* dificult to pull off. However, the only way you get better at fast expansion strategies, is to practice, practice, practice. Just expect to lose alot of the time.
If you are going to fast expand, i would advise experimenting with forge-first builds. These builds are some of the hardest to pull off, but if you manage to get enough experience with them, they can be *very* lethal and almost always viable. If you are going to forge first, you should attempt to offensive cannon their fast expansion 90% of the time. To do this strategy there are some key points that will make this easier:
- Scout with 2 probes. Once you find their base with one, send the other probe to sit at their expansion.
- Build your needed offensive-pylon with your first probe, but go straight to their main and harass with it, so that they have no idea that you are also busy at their expansion with a probe they don't know about.
- Do not build more than 3 cannons, as once you succeed, you will *not rely on your cannon contain*
- A hatchery-in-the-making has a shorter sight range than that of ur pylon. You will be able to build cannons within firing distance, and he will not be able to see them.
- If you can manage it, and sometimes you can't, put the cannons between his ramp and his expansion. This will make your follow up *much* more simple
If your offensive cannons are going to fail (which should be clear before they finish building), cancel them and expand. This build is as safe as any expansion build. However, as mentioned earlier, expansion games are hard. There is too much information to write how to expand 'succesfully', so my suggestion is just to play with it, and to keep the methods mentioned in previous paragraphs in mind.
Upgrades
- templar energy is very important.
- hallucination used in the write instances can be save your life. If it helps keeps your harassing go untouched, it is very powerful.
- if your opponents armor upgrade is ahead or even with your attack upgrade, it becomes less important than shields and armor.
- shields are an underrated upgrade. In late game pvz, when the zerg has ultraling, archons are gonna be what keeps you in the game. You want them to stay alive as long as possible, and your shield upgrade is what is gonna do that. 8 archons with +3 to shield are gonna be more effective than 10 archons with none. And on top of that, all of ur other units are more effective, along with your buildings. *worth it*
- observer speed: really depends on the player. I do not have the multitasking capabilities to harass with 3 shuttles, expand, macro, micro, *and* keep my observers constantly ahead of my army. the cost for observer speed is worth the time i'd have to spent controlling them.
- observer sight range: important for 'gay turtle zergs'. If they have sunken/spore/lurker walls, observer sight range will allow you to see their lurkers without getting into spore range. The upgrade also allows you to stay outside of overlord sightrange which inturn makes scourging your observers *so* much harder to do (if your contained, etc.).
Keep in mind, alot of this is also from the zerg perspective. PvZ is my favourite matchup, and i take great pleasure in being able to take down good zerg players with my 'off-race' in an 'imbalanced' matchup.
I have a bit more to add, but i guess my post is all ready grossly long as it is. i will mention it in another post if the demand is there. 
I hope this helps.
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By the way I am seeking revenge from our last series. I had you!
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yeah, I played neSix one day and he told me and retold me and retold me a millions of times that: PvZ is all about the drones. P kill loads of drone, P won, Z had lot of freedrone unpressured, Z won. 
O and lurkercontainment... I recken people nowadays normally go lurk/ling rather than hydra/ling becaues they can get loads of lurks that way. I prefer to use the normal zeal/archon to kill it :D You need to be "control the middle" like a chess game, when he moves out with lurk/ling flank and kill.
rofl at ur disclaimer ^___^
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Sweden33719 Posts
One drawback of making scouts is that if he has a hydra den in time you might actually NOT be able to scout his main to a satisfactionary degree-_-
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ToT)MidiaN(
England2183 Posts
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On July 14 2005 12:21 Teroru wrote:
Until you get to a relatively high level of play, 1 gate builds will not be viable against ur solid zerg opponent. However, the only way to get good with 1 gate builds is to practice them, so i hope that you can find your way.
i don't know how you define "relatively high level of play", i don't play 1v1 much, probably around c0 -b6 level @wgt if i was a bit more active, so i will try giving some advice anyway.
for some reason i personally have the most trouble playing 1 gate builds (except on nostalgia), so yeah it's pretty hard and needs a lot of practice
[...]draw backs include:
- much more expensive
- much slower build time
you forgot that scout without speed upgrade is pretty slow as well, which is one of my dislikes against scouts, i use a scout instead of a corsair sometimes nevertheless
When a player goes stargate tech, he should immidiately follow up with templar tech. Most zergs are aware that this is going to occur, and must wait for overlord speed to take out your expo. Whether you have 8 dt's, 2 dt's, or none, they still need overlord speed to detect them. In my experience, it's been very effective to expand as soon as possible after your initial harass with your air unit. You do not need Dark Templar for the dark templar tech to defend you. If they attack your expansion and you are unable to defend it, cancel it. No harm done. If you wait for your templar tech to finish, and then wait for 2 dt's to finish before even starting your expansion, you have missed out on alot of possible economy.
nice, i actually never thought of expanding before building the dt(s), i will try it out
100% agree with rise. Unless you are adept at PvZ (and therefore won't need this guide) it will be *very* dificult to pull off. However, the only way you get better at fast expansion strategies, is to practice, practice, practice. Just expect to lose alot of the time.
If you are going to fast expand, i would advise experimenting with forge-first builds. These builds are some of the hardest to pull off, but if you manage to get enough experience with them, they can be *very* lethal and almost always viable. If you are going to forge first, you should attempt to offensive cannon their fast expansion 90% of the time. To do this strategy there are some key points that will make this easier:
- Scout with 2 probes. Once you find their base with one, send the other probe to sit at their expansion.
- Build your needed offensive-pylon with your first probe, but go straight to their main and harass with it, so that they have no idea that you are also busy at their expansion with a probe they don't know about.
- Do not build more than 3 cannons, as once you succeed, you will *not rely on your cannon contain*
- A hatchery-in-the-making has a shorter sight range than that of ur pylon. You will be able to build cannons within firing distance, and he will not be able to see them.
- If you can manage it, and sometimes you can't, put the cannons between his ramp and his expansion. This will make your follow up *much* more simple
If your offensive cannons are going to fail (which should be clear before they finish building), cancel them and expand. This build is as safe as any expansion build. However, as mentioned earlier, expansion games are hard. There is too much information to write how to expand 'succesfully', so my suggestion is just to play with it, and to keep the methods mentioned in previous paragraphs in mind.
probably the paragraph i disagree the most with, especially the beginning. i don't think fast expansion is THAT hard, at least i find it easier than 1 gate tech. i feel much more comfortable fast expanding, i have more success with it and i have beaten players with it that i would almost definitely not be able to beat using 1 gate tech.
if you know your opponent a bit and know that he likes to 12 hatch/11 pool go nexus before forge, otherwise go forge first. if you decide to cannon him i don't think you should build more than 2 cannons (as opposed to mora's max of 3), unless you try this choke cannoning..., but it almost never works for me so i'm not advising it:>
first thing you need to know if he hatched or pooled first, if he pooled first don't try any cannon stuff at his base, build 2 cannons at your first pylon (PLACEMENT!) and add the nexus as soon as the money comes in.
there are two (two and a half actually) main follow ups to fast expanding:
- cors reaver, absolutely impossible on some maps, can be deadly on others if used well
- teching HARD HARD HARD to storm (while going +1 attack and robo soon as well)
- teching less hard to storm with constant zeal production out of 2 gates. this can work very well if zerg got too greedy when seeing your fast expansion attempt, he will often feel really pressured if you move out before speed with like 6-8 zeals (rallying gates)
rather build a gate more than a gate less, you have no idea how fast money comes in with a fast expansion
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what are you guys losing to with 1gate builds? i prefer 1gate actually :O
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I used very often 1 gate opening against zergs too,I had problems when zerg went mass speedlings against my tech and break through my ramp when I had only 3 zels+goon there.
Scouting zerg tech is almost impossible before you got your corsair and he has even few lings before your ramp,I mostly had problems with that speedling mass.
However I am no good toss player and I am nowhere as experienced at PvZ as I am in TvZ so maybe I should not make comments about PvZ openings.
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GJ Whore... sorry there wasn't a WCG Ohio this year btw
Nice guide.
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On July 14 2005 12:45 Sorrow_eyes wrote:yeah, I played neSix one day and he told me and retold me and retold me a millions of times that: PvZ is all about the drones. P kill loads of drone, P won, Z had lot of freedrone unpressured, Z won. O and lurkercontainment... I recken people nowadays normally go lurk/ling rather than hydra/ling becaues they can get loads of lurks that way. I prefer to use the normal zeal/archon to kill it :D You need to be "control the middle" like a chess game, when he moves out with lurk/ling flank and kill. rofl at ur disclaimer ^___^
Yeah, and nesix knows what he's talking about. What, P can't win without killing any drones?
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If you are going 2 gate, you won't lose if you don't get any drones, since the zerg needs to spend his larvas on zerglings(and some sunkens). However, with 1 gate, he can power drones like crazy early game;;
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 14 2005 14:02 NonY wrote:
what are you guys losing to with 1gate builds? i prefer 1gate actually :O
Less solid for ladder play (koreans doing all in builds vs it -,.- like drone drill, mass lings etc at least I think they do, I haven't really 1 gated a very much at all since neogamei)
And yes, expanding before dt is normal, especially since you should have a cannon at your ramp anyways.
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On July 14 2005 14:46 TreY wrote:GJ Whore... sorry there wasn't a WCG Ohio this year btw Nice guide.
<3 Trey, we need to meet up sometime!
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On July 14 2005 13:55 Carnac wrote:
probably the paragraph i disagree the most with, especially the beginning. i don't think fast expansion is THAT hard, at least i find it easier than 1 gate tech. i feel much more comfortable fast expanding, i have more success with it and i have beaten players with it that i would almost definitely not be able to beat using 1 gate tech.
if you know your opponent a bit and know that he likes to 12 hatch/11 pool go nexus before forge, otherwise go forge first. if you decide to cannon him i don't think you should build more than 2 cannons (as opposed to mora's max of 3), unless you try this choke cannoning..., but it almost never works for me so i'm not advising it:>
first thing you need to know if he hatched or pooled first, if he pooled first don't try any cannon stuff at his base, build 2 cannons at your first pylon (PLACEMENT!) and add the nexus as soon as the money comes in.
there are two (two and a half actually) main follow ups to fast expanding:
- cors reaver, absolutely impossible on some maps, can be deadly on others if used well
- teching HARD HARD HARD to storm (while going +1 attack and robo soon as well)
- teching less hard to storm with constant zeal production out of 2 gates. this can work very well if zerg got too greedy when seeing your fast expansion attempt, he will often feel really pressured if you move out before speed with like 6-8 zeals (rallying gates)
rather build a gate more than a gate less, you have no idea how fast money comes in with a fast expansion
As a zerg player i pray that the protoss will fast expand nearly every game. Again, my perspective is really a balance between thinking like a low-econ zvp player and a pvz player. When they fast expand, the only thing that they can be guarunteed to throw at me is macro. I do not and have not ever feared macro. (The majority of my zvp's consist of my protoss opponent having equal or more bases than i do). When they go fast expand, they're just accellerating into their newbie macro game.
When they fast expand, i can do dual or triple tech, while expanding, while massing drones. I will go mutas, switch to lurker drop, and then have 8 guardians on their ledge by the 11 minute mark.
As for the rest of zergs (being that my play is rare, if not unique) will just expand 4 times and keep u outmacro'd.
At the moment, i seem to have equal success between all the builds i use *except* for fast expansion. Many people consider pvz a 'reactionary' matchup, where u have to respond to what the zerg is doing instead of dictating what the zerg is doing. But i do not believe that to be true. If you fast expand however, you have given complete control over to the zerg player, and u just have to pray that you can react better than they can execute. While i do think very highly of my reactionary abilities, i do not have the faith to choose reaction over dictation.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Sair/reaver mora, sair reaver ;D!!
But I also hate fast expo so ^_^
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willet has very good pvz with 1 gate build, basically he goes fast +1 with 1 gate and expands while templar tec in the same time pressure with his 3 zealor and 1 goon. I have seen him beat kiwi with his 1 gate build. and we all know kiwi is no push over on his zvp.
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the 'mehdi' is the bane of all protoss players everywhere, unstoppable
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Thanks for the feedback/discussion all
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On July 14 2005 14:51 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2005 12:45 Sorrow_eyes wrote:yeah, I played neSix one day and he told me and retold me and retold me a millions of times that: PvZ is all about the drones. P kill loads of drone, P won, Z had lot of freedrone unpressured, Z won. O and lurkercontainment... I recken people nowadays normally go lurk/ling rather than hydra/ling becaues they can get loads of lurks that way. I prefer to use the normal zeal/archon to kill it :D You need to be "control the middle" like a chess game, when he moves out with lurk/ling flank and kill. rofl at ur disclaimer ^___^ Yeah, and nesix knows what he's talking about. What, P can't win without killing any drones?
I was implying that if P pressure hard, Z will HAVE to make zerglings or sunks to fend it off, therefore waste his drone/mineral/larvae at the same time. It's basically what i was trying to say. Not directly kill drones no, but to decrease his drone count somehow.
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what exactly is a cross position?
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
Now that was a freakin' huge bump. You might even have created a topic for it, wouldn't have been weirder.
Anyway, being cross-position with your opponent means his main base is at the exact opposite of yours. For example, on LT, 3 and 9 are cross positions.
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o ok so he doesnt scout you right away with ovy and ling rush and thats why you can 1 gate. so should you scout the cross pos right away? and what about being on a 2 person map?
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On June 10 2007 14:42 Inj0i wrote:
o ok so he doesnt scout you right away with ovy and ling rush and thats why you can 1 gate. so should you scout the cross pos right away? and what about being on a 2 person map?
Understand that since you constantly produce peons, the population is a good timer keeper.
So.. basically you do 8 pylon then scout w/ that probe.
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duh... =/
but when you scout against zerg do you want to scout your cross position first? and on 2 player maps do you just 2 gate?
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Calgary25980 Posts
No and no. The second question doesn't even make sense.
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on a 4 player map:
when you scout, you scout the closest position to your base. If he is not there, you go to the corss position (closest to your scouting probe). Since you got your scouting probe around 8, when you reach the cross position you should be around 11-12 population. So, you'll either find him (and go 1 gate tech) or not, so he is near you in the last scouting place (and can assume 2 gate - pressure).
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Oh well, least this isn't as bad as the "lol" bumps :O
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To break lurker contains I prefer to just run past them with Speedlots. Usually the Zerg only puts around 4-5 lurkers outside your base, all spread-out, and just expands and techs back at his base, expecting you to get hit by the lurker spines and just retreat until you get goons/obs. But, running speedlots past the lurkers allows you to ravage newly built Zerg expos and makes the Zerg either retreat the lurkers or sends his main army to attack the speedlots. Then, you can run your main army (if your lots was your main army then skip this) into the Zerg's main base since he's preoccupied with the speedlots raping his drones at expansions and rape everything up in his main base, granted he did unburrow his lurks.
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Chill, the second question was, If playing on a two player map, how would you then know if you want to 2 or 1 gate? Because thats a different scouting scenario than a 4 player map
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Play according to your instincts; if you see something oddly wrong with his build (very few Drones, or something like that) then you'd go 2 Gateway. If you see a normal 12 Hatchery / 11 Spawning Pool, then a 1 Gateway build is better and wastes less time for your teching.
When I play PvZ, I always try to put high pressure on the Zerg early on; I go on a 2 Gateway Zealot pressure build about 60% of the time to hunt Zerglings down, kill some Drones, and force him to commit some minerals into building Sunken Colonies, where 90% of the time aren't well placed and still allows you to take down his Extractor or something and delay Lair tech. Then if the Zerg is still alive by then I have a Corsair to see what he's doing; Hydralisk Den, Spire, or mass Speedlings (although I've only seen this once in an East pub game :O).
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this thread is art! thank you for the guide
i'm trying to improve my PvZ
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Scouting cross position first is because 2 gate sucks if they are cross, so if you scout it first, just 1 gate if they are cross, 2 if they are not.
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Man, how could I have missed this thread. Thank you for whoever bumped this.
Thanks RiSe for posting this as well, I feel like I learned at least a few basic things that I would do but not know the reason for doing!
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On June 16 2007 13:17 hasuprotoss wrote:
Man, how could I have missed this thread. Thank you for whoever bumped this.
Thanks RiSe for posting this as well, I feel like I learned at least a few basic things that I would do but not know the reason for doing!
^^
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Thanks for the bump, and thanks for the thread. PvZ is my worst matchup and I just keep getting curb stomped.
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Imo the guide isn't too good, it doesn't tell anything important.
Playing PvZ from both sides is the best way to learn it.
You must realize that on some maps(luna for example) it is almost impossible to beat ultra+ling+defiler(if you didn't get a advantage before hivetech).
Best way to get a advantage in PvZ is to kill drones - best way to mass kill drones is a Storm drop.
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Alot of you say fast expand is not very good for toss. But it seems that it's the popular build noww days and what are some of the zerg counters to that build?
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I normally get my Cyber at ~17 if I'm 1 gating. I get it at 20-something if I scout a pool first build (going zeal zeal then core to block zergling rushes), but if they FE, It's perfectly safe to go 17 cyber, get your gas/tech much faster and everything just sorta flows from there.
And I think FE is not that hard to pull off. If you really want to be safe, just follow it up with a stargate, go sair and it'll play pretty similarly to a 1 gate game (how you react to what you see is somewhat similar, only now, both players are richer). I guess more things can possibly go wrong with FE, but if you just lose in 4 different ways, and adjust your gameplan every time (ie. learn from your mistakes), it's not hard to learn. I mean, every build is like this, you learn from getting owned in a way you did not prepare for.
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Don't use gay as an insult, that's all.
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Its outdated but it was very good for its time
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EPT
