so basically you allow the zerg to run into your main and rely on your first zealot to cope with the threat. Also rely exclusively on your scouting probe to alert you to throw more cannons down if needed.

Your counter to 12hatch is to send the first zealot out to harass, which may or may not get a drone, then you have to build a zealot zlot to remain safe which slows down everything. So it puts you at a disadvantage again.

You advocate putting down a super early 2nd forge for a wall instead of a core, if you scout...what? you cant possibly know if zerg will go lurkers or not at that point, and even if you did and walled with the forge instead of core that would put you at a disadvantage because of the useless building delaying your tech.

The same problem could occur with any expansion opening if your probe dies and you don't see it in time and hence cannot put probes in order to prevent a runby. In my case I can send 1 to 2 zealots after them to keep one on each side of my economyline in order for them to lower the harrass there and go to the buildings he will focus instead then (ofc probes would help those zealots, but having a zealot with your probes is always better than not having one with them).

yeah a zergling runby can occur with any expansion opening too, but its not actually a problem if you have a wall.

the zerg has 4 main options for runbys in the early game: initial lings without speed, initial lings with speed, later lings soon as speed finishes after lair, and later lings soon as speed finishes with the first 100 gas.

with the first two options, in regular FE toss will block with a few probes in a 1 or 2 hex opening until both cannons are finished, or a couple zealots are built to complete the wall. You cant do this, because your base is so open youd have to pull more than half your mining probes for a complete block. All you can do is pull some at the last second and either block him at your ramp, if you have one, or back up the zealots by your cannon. A futile effort unless you see it coming.

If zerg goes standard 3hatch lair with speed after, this speed upgrade is still faster than your wall is to being completed. Usually running by at this point is a terrible idea because the wall is completed with 3 zealots, so its reserved for countering when the protoss overcommits with early zealot harassment. In your case, you are still open even if you kept all your zealots at home, zerg can run in. Given the timing of his spire in this situation, zerg can choose to followup with mutas and deny you cannons in your main until they arrive, or swing back and take out your natural cannons for the same effect.

if zerg decides to all in with the last option (speed w/ first 100gas), you really have to throw down more cannons asap to not die, and bring many probes to block as well. you have to overcommit because you are too vulnerable during this timing without having a wall, and by doing so you allow the zerg a ton of flexibility. His speed first is no longer all in, because with the additional cannons and probes not mining, your tech is slowed considerably. You also have no way of scouting after, and have to continue putting up more defenses to remain safe, while zerg can switch back to drones and go for any number of builds. 3hatch Lurker, for example, if he notices that you used your cybernetics core to try and put up a wall.

with regular FE the above doesnt happen, protoss sees the early ling speed and lings (as would you), throws down a couple cannons and continues mining. He has 2 zealots to block his wall, so whenever the attack comes the zerg has to break them (attacking each with only 2-3 lings max at a time because they only have that much surface area available) before posing a threat. Plenty of time for protoss to bring all the probes he needs to keep blocking the tiny opening and prevent any damage. After the first wave is repelled its gg, because his tech is only slightly delayed, and the only thing that died would have been a couple zealots and a probe or 2.

As you can see, im still not a fan of the build because its not safe, its inflexible, and doesnt appear to give you any advantage. You said you dont harass with the first zealots because its ez to get countered. Then whats the point of having the early zealots? What advantage does it give you over a normal FE, or over the gateway first build where you actually wallin, to make up for all the disadvantages?

ArvickHero

10387 Posts

September 08 2011 20:01 GMT

#23

On September 08 2011 11:47 Harem wrote:

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You can use it on other maps too.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/77920_great_vs_sHy (being used on CB is actually pretty big since that means you can apply it to other similar maps ie FS)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/79316_Neo.G_Soulkey_vs_sHy (gate in main since it's impossible to wall off on empire fully as there are always holes)

It's also been around in the foreign scene for ages thanks to Shauni. He uses it a lot on HBR and also other maps like Tau. http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43569 http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43570 (earlier tech makes fighting vs 3hat hydra a lot easier)

You don't have to make it your standard as forge FE is still great but you can't understate how this can throw zergs off. You can really catch zergs offguard who just blindly expect forge fe and destroy them. (See how Soulkey gets punished for 2 ling heavy droning.)

Yes, it's a very good surprise tactic on maps like Circuit Breaker and EotS for those who have never faced it before, but it's nowhere near as safe and powerful as it is on NBR, due to the fact you can walloff with one Zealot to prevent runbys. I didn't watch the game vs SK (running on tethered internet atm, too much of a hassle to watch videos), but I did watch the game vs Great and it was fairly obvious that Great had never faced that strategy before, and reacted in the worst ways possible (probably you can get an even better reaction out of D-C- zergs lol)

A proper response to Gate-FE is demonstrated in Movie vs Hoejja (http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/76878_HoeJJa_vs_Movie/vod), where a runby of 5 Zerglings incurs SERIOUS damage, even with 2 Zealots to help defend. Granted, Movie positioned his Zealots wrong, but on most maps that have chokes too large to perfectly wall-off w/ 1 unit, trying to prevent a runby with Gate-FE is a huge hassle and the advantage goes to the Zerg. However, it is very strong on NBR styled chokes, La Mancha and FS have these same chokes at top right/bot-left that allow for Gate-FE

dRaw I just watched the replay you provided, and it pretty much confirms my thoughts on why this build is bad. The thing is, the speedling rush wasn't even executed very cleanly to begin with (overpool? late speed? speedling rushes already have a somewhat small timing window against normal Forge-FE in the first place..), and yet it died really badly. Even with an overpool, Zerg would just runby the natural and kill more than enough probes.

If you're going to open up Gate-Forge, why not just build it at the natural for simcity, save yourself 100 minerals that you waste on a second pylon you clearly could cut out for a faster cannon or Zealot.

Don't play this build as described in the OP, unless you like handicaps or something. If you want to play Gate-first type openings, go 2 Gate, 1 Gate Tech, or Gate-FE (map-dependent). Otherwise just go Forge-FE. This build isn't even very safe to begin with, at least against a competent Zerg player.

krndandaman

Mozambique16569 Posts

September 08 2011 21:54 GMT

#24

--- Nuked ---

iloveav

Poland1474 Posts

September 13 2011 10:23 GMT

#25

On September 08 2011 19:47 gu-val wrote:

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Depends on map. On FS, where you can make a tight wall with 2 buildings and 1 zealot, runby is somewhat hard to execute. On python it is much easier, for example. I can remember the times when every ZvP was played via zergling runby, successful or not.

Its true on some mpas its harder, but then again, what matters is the probe that is scouting....

If you get enoguth information its never an issue. However, if your enemie tries to go with his first 6 lings for a runby (not trying to kill your probe)* Then you just drill some probes timing it so he will be forced to either lose 3 lings to try to pass or lose 2 lings to fall back.

Important: (*) Your scouting must be effective (after pylon, see if clsoe positions overlord is coming with 10th probe), and leave crosspositions for last as its longest way for any rush.

I am not saying its "easy", but 7 probes drilled will stop 6 lings on ramp + canon, and if 6 pooled by zerg, you mgiht even defend the canon from the lings (at your main ofc).

iloveav

Poland1474 Posts

September 13 2011 10:42 GMT

#26

On September 09 2011 02:25 dRaW wrote:

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I hate python too, ironically I normally get the highest winrate on it.

I kinda like the map for pvz, its small enoguht so the zerg cant have you running around while he hits all your bases at once with some ling/defiler :D.