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[G] Hive ZvZ Underused/Secret Unit

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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GG.NoRe
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)1051 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-14 22:32:02
April 14 2011 21:08 GMT
#1
In last MSL, we see evolution of zerg vs zerg, thanks to Great's play.
Great is one progamer who make zvz reach into the hive tech. remember that zvz is usually ling then muta ling and scourge. all zvz always finish either early mass ling attack or muta scourge micro and who better skills and more units win.

But Great develop and perfect hive tech for zvz. I am not talk hive zvz build order because i read from TL many great zvz strategy already, however i make purpose for this article is to discuss the one unit that is not really used in zvz but i think it has very important role.

This unit is none other than
+ Show Spoiler +
the Guardian


Basic Information
+ Show Spoiler +
Spawn from: Mutalisk (100M/100G)
Mutalisk range: 3
Sight: 7
Air attack: 9
Ground attack: 9
Cool: 30

Mutate to Guardian (50/100)
Guardian range: 8
Sight: 11
Air attack: 0
Ground attack: 20
Cool: 30


Secret Use
+ Show Spoiler +
Drone Killer!
[image loading]
Remember that zvz is econ game. one drone and one second matters.
It is the most dangerous matchup because one player not play perfectly is dead immediately. So Guardian sniping drones will damage opponents econ and hurt his game to make you win. But make only 3-5 becuase this is only special unit, not part of regular army force. With this, you unleash the real potential of Guardians.


Scenarios and Obstacles
+ Show Spoiler +
In usual hive zvz, all units are used, particularly in this order > drone, ling, mutalisk, hydralisk, queen, lurker, defiler, and finally ultralisk. Remember the purpose of hive zvz is to make battle to ground, that is why swarm + ultra + ling + lurker is the finishing unit combine. Using Guardian cause many problems because many units can snipe Guardian and kill it before proper use. But here is guide how to battle and protect your Drone Killers.

vs Devourers
+ Show Spoiler +
There are 3 scenarios here:

a. You have equal or weaker devourer force than opponent
[image loading]
Then, position yourself between drones and army. Use half circle on back of your Drone Killer like picture above so damage is more to your opponent.

b. You have scourge, so you are stronger
[image loading]
Attack head on. No matter what, your acid spores and scourge will make you win while Drone Killer kill poor drones.

c. Attack can come from all side
[image loading]
This is normal to center base (like Andromeda and Fighting Spirit maps) and the opponent can attack you from all side. Solution here is simple, what we call from now on "The Eye of Zerg". Explain, Guardians are in the middle to do damage to drones, and surround as circle are Devourer and Mutalisk to spread one each to side balance. Look, remember to bring Overlord, sometimes must there be sneaky Lurker so you need to see them.


vs Hydralisk
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Hydralisk are strong and later they make Lurker, so kill them is important. Remember when you choose Guardian instead or Devourer, you save minerals. Use this to mass lings and overwhelms the hydralisks. Just remember to micro and flank becuase hydralisk can range and kite your lings.


vs Queen
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Don't mind the queens. Just pass straight through them. Guardians are God aweful slow as they are, ensnare wont damage them much. And parasite is not really problem. Honest advice: Just ignore queens.


vs Defiler
+ Show Spoiler +
This is start of real problem. There are 2 scenarios when facing defilers.

a. before plague
[image loading]
Before plague, all you have to ground is lings, and maybe some hydra. But hydra need gas, and Guardian is more important for gas. So use save minerals to get lings and surround defiler. No problem.

already plague
[image loading]
If already plague, hit opponent defiler with plague first before it hits your Drone Killers with plague. Micro is very important. Remember you need to kill defiler ASAP before it can plague you. So sometimes you plague also your lings, but not worry. Defilers cant atttack. Your lings can. So you win, and kill it faster.


Only Problem
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Look at picture above. What is wrong?

[image loading]
Sneaky opponent can research burrow. So invisible drones are difficult to kill. So Drone Killer will be fail. That is why I said earlier to always bring Overlord. Wow, my one Guardian is parasite. No problem. I win hive zvz because of Guardians/Drone Killers


Poll: Is Guide Hive ZvZ useful?

Fun (32)
 
55%

No, maybe (16)
 
28%

Very (5)
 
9%

A Little (5)
 
9%

58 total votes

Your vote: Is Guide Hive ZvZ useful?

(Vote): Very
(Vote): A Little
(Vote): No, maybe
(Vote): Fun



+ Show Spoiler +
Please sorry my English ok.
DONGJWA!
KahunaNui
Profile Joined October 2010
Spain257 Posts
April 14 2011 22:23 GMT
#2
Shouldn't you change the range of the guardian?
Q. You've been criticized for using cheesy builds in the past, but now people are saying that you've played some good games today. A. I'm glad that they think that way, but that won't stop me from using cheesy builds.(oGsHyperdub)
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
April 14 2011 22:39 GMT
#3
I don't understand...you make it from a mutalisk, why can't you just use mutas to kill drones?
WarSame
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1950 Posts
April 14 2011 23:25 GMT
#4
Forgive my noobiness - but wouldn't they just get broodlinged?
Can it be I stayed away too long? Did you miss these rhymes while I was gone?
Gak2
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada418 Posts
April 15 2011 00:10 GMT
#5
The bigger problem with guardians: scourge.
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
April 15 2011 00:18 GMT
#6
Guys, please read the entire OP. He actually does a meticulous job of microing the gaurdians in very specific unit compositions.

scourge will be useless in a hive tech zvz
and where, late game zvz has theoretically already been established

▲ ▲ ▲
AfecksN
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom53 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-15 00:29:34
April 15 2011 00:21 GMT
#7
On April 15 2011 09:10 Gak2 wrote:
The bigger problem with guardians: scourge.


Yeah... Mid-game it seems as though guardians would just make hive zerg even more difficult to pull off, as muta scourge would become more effective. Some nice scourge control would be hell late game as well..
BW Commentator~ http://www.youtube.com/user/AfecksN
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
April 15 2011 00:44 GMT
#8
Ummm...

Guardians are an important unit in hive ZvZ that hasn't received a lot of attention lately, but harassment is not so much it. A good player typically has enough sense for where units are not to fall for this kind of thing although if you can pull it off more power to you. Typically the player who has the resource advantage will lead into the hydra transition and unless the other player (who presumably has air superiority otherwise why is this game going to hive tech?) can do an effective enough job sniping to even things up, he'll have to switch to ground as well since the player with hydra is going to have defilers up and defilers are the death of mutas. But now you have left over mutas (hopefully you aren't going to foolishly suicide them) for sniping and limiting the hydra player's map control. One of the options for how to use those mutas is that if there are terrain features conducive to guardian use you can morph them either for offensive use or to break a defensive position (lurkers under swarm are basically impossible to break in ZvZ although ultras can get the job done if there aren't too many lurks, but swarm won't protect buildings and hydras don't have the reach of your guards, so if you're careful with how you use them and don't just blindly attack move you can wear down a position).
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
iSometric
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
2221 Posts
April 15 2011 02:03 GMT
#9
Scourge rape them?
strava.com/athletes/zhaodynasty
gongryong
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Korea (South)1430 Posts
April 15 2011 03:12 GMT
#10
ROFFLES!

Guys you miss the whole point of the OP.
What a glorious troll be you!
Well played sir, well played.
JAEDONG ÜBERBONJWA!
GG.NoRe
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)1051 Posts
April 15 2011 04:19 GMT
#11
On April 15 2011 11:03 iSometric wrote:
Scourge rape them?


Scourge are not use anymore lategame zvz because of Devourer and Mutalisk.
This AA army will protect your Guardians.
DONGJWA!
4vvhiplash7
Profile Joined December 2010
South Africa392 Posts
April 15 2011 06:39 GMT
#12
i don't know... I still think Guardians are a waste... mutas can do the same job, cost less and are less vulnerable... but i'm definitely not a ZvZ player, I just observe, so please inform me otherwise... I would like to know what others think...
JMave
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Singapore1803 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-15 07:42:15
April 15 2011 07:41 GMT
#13
for me in my own limited experience, i find the toughest part about hive tech is getting to hive tech without dying.

though the guardians as you write have many advantages, i have some questions as well. since the guardians need to be protected, it requires your army to be with the guardians. therefore, moving for the harass in a way forces your opponent to be attacking you. so this to me, really isn't a form of harassment but a decoy to force him to attack you whilst you being in sueprior positioning. so in essence, can you only do such harassment with a well established army?

and lastly, what kind of composition do you strive for if you would want to do such a move? since the devourer debuff stacks to a maximum of 9, does it mean getting more than 9 is a waste? you can probably get 5 and still attain the same effect and use mutas to maximise your damage since the mutas have splash that's even more extrapolated by the devourer debuff.
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
Rainbow
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States249 Posts
April 19 2011 14:12 GMT
#14
Your English is fine, at least understandable.

It looks like the problem isn't getting to hive tech, his usage of guardians is when both players are still in an air superiority fight and are already using devourers. I'd say it's a one situational move where you morph the guardians right outside their base (they're so damn slow) and harass but I can't imagine guardians in a real ZvZ army since every other zerg unit is so damn fast

On April 15 2011 08:25 Peterblue wrote:
Forgive my noobiness - but wouldn't they just get broodlinged?


Broodling only works on ground units ^^ (pretty much just not reavers and archons iirc)
therockmanxx
Profile Joined July 2010
Peru1174 Posts
April 19 2011 14:29 GMT
#15
I dont think its a good idea
They are too slow... and you need 3 hits to snipe a drone unless u upgrade the attack
Mutas can do the same job and faster !!
Sorry but I think this is a impossible scenerio .... It will never happen
Tekken ProGamer
GG.NoRe
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)1051 Posts
April 19 2011 14:55 GMT
#16
On April 19 2011 23:29 therockmanxx wrote:
I dont think its a good idea
They are too slow... and you need 3 hits to snipe a drone unless u upgrade the attack
Mutas can do the same job and faster !!
Sorry but I think this is a impossible scenerio .... It will never happen


My meaning is this:
Situation is already hive zvz where both are air power in strong. So to harass base you morph 2-3 Guardians to deal maximum damage to drones, instead of Mutalisk only. Is it clear? Slow is no problem because you do this in enemy base, with Devourers and Mutalisk.
DONGJWA!
Frigo
Profile Joined August 2009
Hungary1023 Posts
April 19 2011 16:30 GMT
#17
Stacked mutas are much better for harassment jobs. Though if the opponent turtles heavily with spores, you might give it a go. Just be sure his muta count stays manageable.
http://www.fimfiction.net/user/Treasure_Chest
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
April 19 2011 18:38 GMT
#18
I haven't played Brood War for a year and you guys are idiots. Gr8 thread.
Moderator
LastWish
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
2013 Posts
April 19 2011 20:36 GMT
#19
Reminds me of "zealots vs carriers".
Good days...
- It's all just treason - They bring me down with their lies - Don't know the reason - My life is fire and ice -
chem!
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation42 Posts
April 19 2011 20:58 GMT
#20
guardian cost 150/200
2 scourge cost 25/75
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
April 19 2011 21:14 GMT
#21
From all the writeups I've seen they talk about Guardians being one of the most useless units in ZvZ. Uber slow so you lose your mobility, die to scourge, and you'll get defilers before Guards anyways so a darkswarm essentially nullifies Guardians, because it's not like they can easily manuever to other locations to avoid firing into DS.
infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
April 19 2011 23:31 GMT
#22
They are totally immobile which is pretty much the exact opposite of what you want in a ZvZ.
GG.NoRe
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)1051 Posts
April 20 2011 01:16 GMT
#23
On April 20 2011 06:14 FabledIntegral wrote:
From all the writeups I've seen they talk about Guardians being one of the most useless units in ZvZ. Uber slow so you lose your mobility, die to scourge, and you'll get defilers before Guards anyways so a darkswarm essentially nullifies Guardians, because it's not like they can easily manuever to other locations to avoid firing into DS.


Is ok because you see my Defiler use in OP. Plague Defiler and/or attach with zerglings. Or if they use swarm to drones, as you said, its good because it means no swarm for army and you can kill Defiler before consume.
DONGJWA!
xiaofan
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States513 Posts
April 20 2011 03:25 GMT
#24
On April 20 2011 03:38 Chill wrote:
I haven't played Brood War for a year and you guys are idiots. Gr8 thread.


this
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19240 Posts
April 20 2011 05:32 GMT
#25
On April 20 2011 12:25 xiaofan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2011 03:38 Chill wrote:
I haven't played Brood War for a year and you guys are idiots. Gr8 thread.


this

this....has killed the thread. Gaurdians are only nice when u have 3 muta left and nothing else to do with em late game.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
~ava
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada378 Posts
April 20 2011 06:29 GMT
#26
I thought the thread was interesting, good job OP for trying your best with your 2nd language.
chongu
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Malaysia2585 Posts
April 20 2011 07:15 GMT
#27
Front page please : ) Its funny reading the comments
SC2 is to BW, what coke is to wine.
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
April 20 2011 08:14 GMT
#28
Doh T___T

mutalisk have taken that position for years T__T
Jaedong :3
GG.NoRe
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)1051 Posts
April 20 2011 11:22 GMT
#29
On April 20 2011 14:32 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2011 12:25 xiaofan wrote:
On April 20 2011 03:38 Chill wrote:
I haven't played Brood War for a year and you guys are idiots. Gr8 thread.


this

this....has killed the thread. Gaurdians are only nice when u have 3 muta left and nothing else to do with em late game.


On April 20 2011 17:14 ReketSomething wrote:
Doh T___T

mutalisk have taken that position for years T__T


Im sorry but you are grossly missed my point here. Situation of the game is both within air superiority mode already and mass Mutalisk and Devourer. Obviously scourge is no use. Both are trying to transition to ground, thats why get Hydra Den and Defiler Mound and Ultralisk Cavern. But before this transition, One Z can make surprise switch while harass base - make 2-3 Guardians to faster kill drones conpared to Mutalisk. And Mutalisk will instead be used for with Devourer for Defense of Guardian or just continue control of air.

Guardian are slow but make them in opponent base while harass. Imagine this, you harass base, of course he has Spore, thats why you reach Hive ZvZ. So even if you have more forces to destroy Building defense, his Devorer and Mutalisk come. During this time you can make Guardians to concentrate on drones while Mutalisk and Devoruer do air control or fight army. This is period of time when Z is really short of gas and every drone counts. You could sacrifice 2-3 50/100 in exchange so he has weak economy and disrupt tech to ground or him to make more Mutalisk.

I hope you understand my English.

On April 20 2011 15:29 ~ava wrote:
I thought the thread was interesting, good job OP for trying your best with your 2nd language.


Thank you. Im really sorry I hope my roomate is here to fix my English before I post. Just please understand. Thanks a lot.
DONGJWA!
c3rberUs
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Japan11286 Posts
April 20 2011 12:25 GMT
#30
So you mean, guardians can be used when the player has air superiority to minimize the threat of anti-guardian units, if so, you should put that detail in the OP. ^^

I couldn't help but agree with some of the points that other posters in the thread. Guardians are really vulnerable and slow, although I'm not eliminating the possibility that it might not work.

It might work as flying reavers?! XD
WriterMovie, 진영화 : "StarCraft will never die".
shinjin
Profile Joined January 2010
United States398 Posts
April 20 2011 12:59 GMT
#31
thanks for the effort OP ^_^
teach me korean~

ㅋㅋㅋ

too bad like 99% of zvzs never reach hive anyways ) :
give it one more try because the best things in life dont come free.
Sajiki
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany522 Posts
April 20 2011 14:47 GMT
#32
this guide is epic win.
still sneaky drones can be srs problem
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