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Papua New Guinea152 Posts
Hello All. To begin with, I finally made D+ on iccup last season, but so far this season I tried to use a different strategy: cheese every game. I heard somewhere that it's possible to reach at least C+ by only cheesing every single game, and I am willing to test that personally.
So far it hasn't been going to well, and I only have 29% win rate using all three races. I would like to compile a list of all cheeses known in the BW universe so I can use them in all my games. Like I said, I am using terran, zerg, and protoss so I can use every possible cheese known to mankind and make my opponents facepalm.
Needless to say, I need your help. So far, according to Liquipedia, I have:
Proxy gateways/robotics facility/whatever. Used in PvP, PvT(?)
4 pool. ZvT especially, also good in ZvZ and ZvP(sometimes?)
BBS (rax rax supply). TvZ especially I guess
Bunker Rush. TvZ(with early hatch), TvP(early nexus). Might not technically be a cheese, but sneaky enough to make my opponent facepalm(I hope).
...
So if you could kindly propose more cheese that I can implement into my arsenal, that would be greatly appreciated. Kindly supply your cheese suggestion and matchups where applicable, and additionally any other relevant information as necessary.
k thx
EDIT: bcuz i am trying to enjoy the diversity of cheese and humiliate my opponents in as many different ways as possible, the more cheeses i can get the better. i also don't care about any kind of mid-game transitions because the whole point (and fun) of cheesing is to win the game in the beginning with an outrageous all-in. i would prefer to make the cheese as convincing and deceptive as possible, and i am willing to sacrifice, econ, gameplan, macro, and (read: all that other useless stuff). if the cheese doesn't work out i have no problem with licking my chops and gg'ing.
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Proxy gates, BBS and 5 pool are all you need. (They're the best cheese in all matchups)
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2 gate DT, 4 gate goon.
Dts are nice and cheezy in PvP. And you can actually transition out of it
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I don't view DTs as cheese in PvP. You can just throw up a forge at ~the same time as your DTs and add cannons at your nat (expoing of course) while adding storm and high templars. So even if your DTs fail (and at low levels your DTs will very often give you free wins) you can transition into macro play using psi storm if he goes allin on you.
PvP on HBR is a crazy cheesefest, there's like 7 places to place proxy gateways and then theres the "cannoning your opponents choke" thing that a lot of people like to do.
Uh, when 4pooling in ZvZ make sure to bring 1-2 drones to make offensive sunken colonies. 2hat/3hat hydra allin can work vs P, but you HAVE to be good at denying ANY scouting with speedlings
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Cannon rush, 4gate. 7pylon 8/9 gate rush with 4 probes vs zerg.
Fake fast expand to 4gate vs z
EDIT: 7pylon 8/9gate to pylon/batteryshield zergs expo
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A D+ player who doesn't know any cheeses? Odd. Either way:
3 hatch hydra bust ZvP
1 hatch lurker ZvT
2 hatch lurker drop ZvP / ZvT
gas steal --> reaver --> elevator (altho this requires some sick micro to pull off...watch snow vs lomo on matchpoint) PvT
1 Base 4 gate all in PvT
2 Base carrier PvT
10/15 PvT on rampless maps
BBS TvZ
Bunker rush TvZ
2 Proxy facts TvZ / TvP
3 fact (usually 1 proxied) TvP
Sparks Rush TvZ
Ay-u-mi TvZ
3 port wraith w/ cloak TvT
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Korea (South)11577 Posts
TvP wall off, and if he doesn't get his probe in, make 3 barracks, and mass marines. send a 2nd scv to build an e-bay near his base (that he wont scout) and lift off the ebay over his minerals, right click all of ur scv to his minerals (to make it so he can't stay above ramp) and attack with all of ur scvs/marines + add bunkers n shit. if he doesn't reaver/dt u win 90% of the time unless u suck with micro
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I think you'll get further with more strategic all-in plays than with straight up cheeses. Just find some Mamon replays and you'll see how it's done.
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9 hatch Zv anything
Hatch at natural at 9
pool at 9
gas at 9
overlord at 9
put 3 drones on gas asap to get 100 gas, then pull 2
as soon as pool pops, make 6 lings
ling speed
18/18 lings
gogogogogogo
you can then transition by making either a lair or overlord as you attack.
then you can do whatever you want
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=107395¤tpage=66#1316
see following argument and aware--'s rage for credentials
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On October 06 2010 12:53 SubtleArt wrote:
A D+ player who doesn't know any cheeses? Odd. Either way:
3 hatch hydra bust ZvP
1 hatch lurker ZvT
2 hatch lurker drop ZvP / ZvT
gas steal --> reaver --> elevator (altho this requires some sick micro to pull off...watch snow vs lomo on matchpoint) PvT
1 Base 4 gate all in PvT
2 Base carrier PvT
10/15 PvT on rampless maps
BBS TvZ
Bunker rush TvZ
2 Proxy facts TvZ / TvP
3 fact (usually 1 proxied) TvP
Sparks Rush TvZ
Ay-u-mi TvZ
3 port wraith w/ cloak TvT
this is a joke. right?
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On October 06 2010 13:13 Xenocide_Knight wrote:9 hatch Zv anything Hatch at natural at 9 pool at 9 gas at 9 overlord at 9 put 3 drones on gas asap to get 100 gas, then pull 2 as soon as pool pops, make 6 lings ling speed 18/18 lings gogogogogogo you can then transition by making either a lair or overlord as you attack. then you can do whatever you want http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=107395¤tpage=66#1316see following argument and aware--'s rage for credentials
Rofl, I was the victim of this, and I can guarantee that it works like a charm vs a noobie who has never encountered it before. ^__^
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You can't cheese through C+. I highly doubt you can even cheese through C-. Better players scout, and they will know when somethings wrong. Not to mention just cause a cheese goes unscouted doesn't mean it works depending on the micro.
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In my experience in Blue Storm, it isn't uncommon for players to forget to keep an eye on the huge proxy area in their base. However, the downside is that your opponent will certainly scout your base, as you can't block your main with probes/drones/scvs, and if your BO even slightly smells like cheese, the jig will be up.
Also, while this may be a bit tangential to the OP, one very strong indicator that your opponent is about to pull some shit on a 3+ player map is if his scout comes into your base then quickly leaves, as if your opponent only wants to know where you are. In most games that I've played where my opponent does this, I send a probe out to my nat, and lo and behold, there's a pylon or a barracks going up >_>.
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I think a better method to get you to higher ranks than just "cheese more" is to use the same build over and over - whether or not it is cheese.
This way, you learn all of the small nuances and timings associated with the build. You can change orders slightly to fit your preference. You know exactly when you are strongest and when you are weakest. You know when you should transition out of your cheese right away. You prepare for map features and scouting paths.
One build I have used like this is 12 pool speedling. It's flexible, so I can be aggressive while still macroing. It's cheesy enough for iCCup, safe against (some) other cheeses, and will net me easy wins ZvP and ZvT when they don't scout/react properly.
I know that if the T has gone FE, he will never be able to defend it unless he gets alot of SCVs below his ramp. I know that if the P has gone FE, he needs 2 cannons and several probes well positions to stop me from running by. I know that if a T goes 2 rax, I can make my lings and macro up, waiting for an opportunity to kill his early rines, but not expecting on. If the P has gone 1 base tech I should cancel my speed and stop making lings ASAP to transition to 3 hatch.
I have the build orders in the back of my head depending on how I follow up. mass ling/low econ, 2 hatch muta, 3 hatch muta, 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra.
So this could be seen as just cheesing over and over, but whether or not that's the case, you're going to win more games and become a better player when you practice specific builds.
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Korea (South)11577 Posts
you can also just PM KamuL (isai) about how to cheese. thats all he does lol
i <3 u isai
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bcuz i am trying to enjoy the diversity of cheese and humiliate my opponents
Stove.
Stove every game.
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Since when the hell is bunker rushing a 12 nexus cheese? Im pretty sure thats the most standard thing in the world -_-
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On October 06 2010 13:30 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 12:53 SubtleArt wrote:
A D+ player who doesn't know any cheeses? Odd. Either way:
3 hatch hydra bust ZvP
1 hatch lurker ZvT
2 hatch lurker drop ZvP / ZvT
gas steal --> reaver --> elevator (altho this requires some sick micro to pull off...watch snow vs lomo on matchpoint) PvT
1 Base 4 gate all in PvT
2 Base carrier PvT
10/15 PvT on rampless maps
BBS TvZ
Bunker rush TvZ
2 Proxy facts TvZ / TvP
3 fact (usually 1 proxied) TvP
Sparks Rush TvZ
Ay-u-mi TvZ
3 port wraith w/ cloak TvT this is a joke. right?
Why would it be?
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show 2 gate vs terran, but proxy 2 more gateways.
bash in the front of his base with 4 gate goons if he is going FE
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srsly, getting to c- is so much easier if you just follow a solid build and learn to adapt.
as long as you have dicipline, getting stable c- should be no problems (remember, c- is just lucky d+)
OnT: An incredibly potent cheese in zvp that's really easy to remember and one that no protoss seems to recognize is as follows:
*get 3 hatcheries just like normal (the usual response to forge-expand)
*get gas at normal timing and upgrade to lair
*next 50 gas goes into hydra den
*until now, you have only pumped drones and a few zerglings to block the probe so you can afford
to build another gas at your nat, you'll really need it for upgrades
*upgrade hydra range and overlord speed once lair finishes
*upgrade hydra speed/lurker and overlord drop
this build has it all, i didn't start using it until i was b- or something but i've actually never lost with it, mostly cause no one recognize it and they always spam cannons at front thinking, "fucking noob, dont' show your hydras so fast lololol" and then the drop in the main comes and they are dead...
if your opponent builds alot of speedzealots a little earlier than usual, you may need to upgrade lurker aspect earlier than normal but that's allright. how do i know if he builds speedzealots you ask? this is something you really need to now in zvp so a good tip: keep your overlord in his base and if you scout 2+ gates and/or no early second gas, hell most likely go speedzeals.
now if your drop kinda fails somehow (i dunno how, corsairs maybe?) then you won't be that far behind, sure your economy will be bad and you will only have 3 hatches, but you'll also have drop and lurkers so harassing is easy, and he'll most likely not have observers so you can just contain him as well and build up an economy with 5-6 hatches.
dude, just try this build.. its like psi-storming zerglins, only the reverse (you're the templar that is) so easy to win at red and yellow levels with it.
GL and have fun feeling imba
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EPT
