EPTzerg 12 hatch/overpool risk/benifit? - Page 3
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WhoNeedsMacro
Canada43 Posts
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explicit
52 Posts
And is 12 hatch proven to put you in a better position for the intial push/harass even? Sounds abit early to me, either making the pool come later or putting your econ so much behind that you'll either have less workers or food in total at the time when most pushes come - compared to a 14 or 15 hatch that is. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
Overpool (and especially 9 Pool or 4/5 pool) punishes greedy plays and proxy plays. It's bad against most one-base plays since they just hold their ramp, and normally have plenty of units to do so, so the timing at which you have more Zerglings than a 12 hatchery build is rendered useless. (Although it would punish an extremely greedy one-base tech build. If Terran assumed the Zerg would 12 hatch, Terran might skip a wall and marines and rely on his first vulture to deal with Zerglings. Or a Protoss might tech straight to Corsair or even Reaver without delaying at all for ground units.) One-base plays aren't the standard, however, and a 9 Pool/Overpool (and even 12 pool, sometimes) can force the Terran or Protoss player to delay their expansion and/or build extra static defenses. | ||
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explicit
52 Posts
On August 18 2010 06:40 Severedevil wrote: What is 9 OL? Overpool uses 9 Overlord. So do 12 Pool and 12 Hatch. Overpool (and especially 9 Pool or 4/5 pool) punishes greedy plays and proxy plays. It's bad against most one-base plays since they just hold their ramp, and normally have plenty of units to do so, so the timing at which you have more Zerglings than a 12 hatchery build is rendered useless. (Although it would punish an extremely greedy one-base tech build. If Terran assumed the Zerg would 12 hatch, Terran might skip a wall and marines and rely on his first vulture to deal with Zerglings. Or a Protoss might tech straight to Corsair or even Reaver without delaying at all for ground units.) One-base plays aren't the standard, however, and a 9 Pool/Overpool (and even 12 pool, sometimes) can force the Terran or Protoss player to delay their expansion and/or build extra static defenses. I just assumed overpool meant going pool at 10 and then overlord at nine again:p But 12 hatch i though meant you'd go double extractor into hatch at 12, then pool at 11 and OL at 10 again. Just tested this and pool+hatch finished at the exact same time with some money for queens. Ill check 9OL with 12 hatch now | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
In Broodwar, supply is capped at 9 until you build an overlord (or another hatchery). Hence 9 pool and 9 overlord are the normal two branches. 9 pool can be followed with gas & overlord, or with Extractor Trick --> 10th drone & overlord. 9 Overlord is normally followed with a pool ("Overpool"), or some drones --> pool ("12 Pool"), or some drones --> hatch --> pool ("12 hatch"). There are other options, but those are the normal choices. | ||
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J1.
United States2 Posts
The overpool build is a standard and the correct way to go versing any random protoss you have never met on the ladder. If you 12 Hatch versing a normal 2 gate with the protoss bringing some probes, you will get overrun easily. If you see that the protoss forge fast expanded, you are safe and you don't need to make many lings and start pumping drones again. The 12 hatchery build versing a Terran should be fine. Your lings plus sunkens should be enough to defend any early pressure and will give you a big economical lead against your opponent. This should be important to any new and upcoming zerg to use as a guide because often times, 12 hatchery can lead to easy losses for no reason versing a protoss. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1803 Posts
On March 09 2011 19:05 J1. wrote: I agree with Uncle NayNay 100%. The overpool build is a standard and the correct way to go versing any random protoss you have never met on the ladder. If you 12 Hatch versing a normal 2 gate with the protoss bringing some probes, you will get overrun easily. If you see that the protoss forge fast expanded, you are safe and you don't need to make many lings and start pumping drones again. The 12 hatchery build versing a Terran should be fine. Your lings plus sunkens should be enough to defend any early pressure and will give you a big economical lead against your opponent. This should be important to any new and upcoming zerg to use as a guide because often times, 12 hatchery can lead to easy losses for no reason versing a protoss. i've heard people say that going 12 hatch is a better situation to be in rather than a 9 pool. all you have to do is to let your hatch take a few hits, save up lings and plant down a sunken and you will be in a good position. | ||
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hellbound
United Kingdom2242 Posts
On March 09 2011 22:55 JMave wrote: i've heard people say that going 12 hatch is a better situation to be in rather than a 9 pool. all you have to do is to let your hatch take a few hits, save up lings and plant down a sunken and you will be in a good position. Depends on how early the gates are and if they are proxied or not. If he 2gates inbase 12 hatch is the best build to deal with it for me. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
The thing is, you're going to need the extra lings from that second hatch. If you overpool, then you will have 6 lings out when he only has 1 zealot, but if he waits a little bit he will have zealots coming out of 2 gates while you can only produce lings as fast as you get larva off 1 hatch, which is no good. Generally 9 pool builds are better because they offer more versatility. 1 base 2 gate builds are sort of their weakness, but the effectiveness of 1 base 2 gate is very map dependent to begin with. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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shinjin
United States398 Posts
On August 18 2010 07:02 explicit wrote: I just assumed overpool meant going pool at 10 and then overlord at nine again:p But 12 hatch i though meant you'd go double extractor into hatch at 12, then pool at 11 and OL at 10 again. Just tested this and pool+hatch finished at the exact same time with some money for queens. Ill check 9OL with 12 hatch now what a winner hmm, this thread is interesting. I always thought 3 hatch before pool was plausible in zvp for some reason, so if they put the nexus right after forge, you would still have an econ advantage | ||
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Frigo
Hungary1023 Posts
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Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
On March 17 2011 16:59 shinjin wrote: what a winner hmm, this thread is interesting. I always thought 3 hatch before pool was plausible in zvp for some reason, so if they put the nexus right after forge, you would still have an econ advantage With the current PvZ meta, the Neo-Bisu build makes it incredibly dangerous to get more than two hatches before pool. Not only does it allow Toss to punish more effetively. but it severely delays tech needed to counter Neo-Bisu like mutas and lurkers. | ||
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Zyferous
United States270 Posts
12 Hatch/Overpool ZvP is really match specific. What I find is that if it is a 4 player map, I will 12 hatch, and if it is a 2 player map, I will overpool. My reasoning is that unless they scout you first, a 12 hatch will deny any opportunity of them blocking your expansion. In addition, if they don't scout you first, protoss will be tempted to place at least one or two cannons down preemptively anyways. Overpool on a 2 player map will force the protoss player to build two cannons at his natural, or outright kills him if he somehow decides to only build one cannon or 14 nex's. | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
On August 15 2010 04:46 ArvickHero wrote: vT if you decide to go for a 9 pool, then you should just go 9 pool burrow I've always wondered how effective that is (assuming Terran is going for the usual fast expand and not some one base play). Does the zerg come out economically ahead? It'd be great if someone could shed some light on this. | ||
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