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zerg 12 hatch/overpool risk/benifit?

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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1 2 3 Next All
Xma
Profile Joined October 2009
United States147 Posts
August 14 2010 17:42 GMT
#1
after reading articles on 12 hatch vs 2 gate and stuff it seems to me that the build is very versatile even in the face of early pressure assuming you have decent micro. however, can someone use this build like 99% of the time in both zvt and zvp and have the benefits out weigh the cons? if a 12 hatch struggles ALOT vs proxy rax and proxy gates ect., is it better to overpool like 100% of time in both mu's and not worry about proxies, because im looking for a standard build that wont lose when people cheese me which is very common on bnet and iccup. Regardless many guides have 12 hatch as the "norm". I wonder if its best to lose those like few rush games and focus on mainly 12 hatching vs the overpool builds. So really im trying to ask which is best for overall standard play that can be applied in many situations (including cheese) as im trying to work on one build at a time to master a basic build for both zvt and zvp.

**yes i saw the oystein fpvod of 12 hatch stopping proxy gates but is that really viable? it seems a toss with sick micro will destroy your 12 hatch as he will deny sunken placement ect. setting u back
Lightwip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5497 Posts
August 14 2010 17:47 GMT
#2
12 hatch is more economical, while overpool is more safe. It really is your choice.
12 hatch can defend proxy gates well enough as long as you use your lings to delay zealots and drones to protect sunkens. That's particularly convenient considering it's an economic choice. You're only really screwed if you go for 3 hatch before pool.
Overpool/9 pool give you some map control, but 12 hatch gives you economy earlier. Your choice.
If you are not Bisu, chances are I hate you.
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16986 Posts
August 14 2010 17:48 GMT
#3
In terms of safety, on most maps, 12 hat is able to fend off all but the most risky rushes and come out ahead economically.
Moderator
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9756 Posts
August 14 2010 17:49 GMT
#4
generally, overpool vT isn't going to be good. its possible to stop even a BBS with 12hatch, and the economic difference is huge. sure you won't die early on, but you may very well die later.

ZvP is one of my worst matchups so i just won't comment...
boomer hands
Xma
Profile Joined October 2009
United States147 Posts
August 14 2010 17:51 GMT
#5
well that small timing of harass still is worth it as 12 hatch sets me up way faster for a strong midgame right? and its not like every game is cheese so wont i be better off the majority of the time if i just focus on 12 hatching and work on micro vs harass? it just feels like overpool is only good if u KNOW someone is either fe'ing or putting super pressure early, where as 12 hatch seems to handle all but has minor difficulty vs proxies and thats about it
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9756 Posts
August 14 2010 17:53 GMT
#6
you could always change it up with the map. on 2p maps overpool vP so if they scout after pylon they won't be blocking your hatchery.
boomer hands
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
August 14 2010 18:22 GMT
#7
i overpool (zvp) on any map that has a buildable center. for zvt i think 12hatch should be fine as long as you scout with a drone, because you can just cancel the hatchery if needed vs bbs (scout with a drone) and then be able to come back. This doesnt work so well in zvp bcuz zealots are much stronger on their own than marines.
aka DragOn[NaS]
Xma
Profile Joined October 2009
United States147 Posts
August 14 2010 19:21 GMT
#8
so wait with overpool are you supposed to like start a mini contain as you expand making up for the economy loss u would have with a 12 hatch?, so its like when u want control / economy? early control late eco= overpool and 12 hatch is opposite? but overpool benefits with extra saftey and like hatch blocking?
Timangi99
Profile Joined November 2008
Sweden73 Posts
August 14 2010 19:29 GMT
#9
If you want to be a better player, go 12 hatch.
abcdefghiklmNEVERGONNAGIVEYOUUPopqrstuvwxyz
micro7295
Profile Joined August 2010
United States68 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-14 19:44:42
August 14 2010 19:38 GMT
#10
going for hatchery is always my choice :/ unless ur going to cheese, pool can wait. seriously.

note: cheesing bots isnt as fun or exciting as ud like. neither is distracting idiot workers with 1 probe. they dont change lol. works every time

an early pool is generally not for an early contain. thats like the backup plan if ur cheese went horribly wrong. ur gonna get ur zerglings in there for a lil harassment to destroy some of their eco (to make up for urs) and ur gonna micro em and keep em in there for as long as possible . keep distracing them. vs terran, u can generally get 6 in b4 they make too many marines and u can usually cheese them very nicely once marines r dead (if theyre pretty good, theyll have walled off and had a few marines by the time u get there :p and then ur in trouble)
an ultralisk, an ultralisk, my hive for an ultralisk
TheMute
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States458 Posts
August 14 2010 19:45 GMT
#11
I always 12 hatch in ZvT. No reason not too. Drone scout his base or proxys with 9 drone or drone you send out with 12 hatch.

For ZvP, 12 hatch is optimal vs 2 gate but bad vs proxy gates. Vs 2 gate get a sunken at nat right away. Proxy gates can be hard to deal with because lings don't come in time for first zeal. Personally, I don't like 12 hatch ZvP because P usually FEs and skips cannons and gets Nexus first. I like to force cannons so I go Overpool or Overpool speed. On 4p maps, P might still put down 2 cannons first to be safe when you 12 hatch.

Or if you 12 hatch ZvP, make sure to block his nexus with your scouting drone like they always do to us!
Friends are simply people you can do/say vulgar things to.
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
August 14 2010 19:46 GMT
#12
vT if you decide to go for a 9 pool, then you should just go 9 pool burrow
Writerptrk
O-ops
Profile Joined February 2009
United States4236 Posts
August 14 2010 20:22 GMT
#13
On August 15 2010 04:46 ArvickHero wrote:
vT if you decide to go for a 9 pool, then you should just go 9 pool burrow


With all the idiots that 14cc these days 9 pool is viable
Fan of the Jangbanger
Chaos
Profile Joined July 2009
United States772 Posts
August 14 2010 20:50 GMT
#14
Yeah in ZvP you also want to keep in mind how your opponent is affected by your build. If you go 12 hatch and then your opponent scouts it, he can go nexus before forge. I personally overpool almost every game ZvP because I prefer to make my opponent get forge before his nexus.
FruitMarket
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4838 Posts
August 14 2010 20:52 GMT
#15
Against proxy plays: Overpool
Against one-base plays: 12 Hatch
Against defensible FEs: 12 Hatch or Overpool
Against economic cheese: Overpool

Overpool can generally delay an FE enough to make back the cost.
My strategy is to fork people.
n.DieJokes
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3443 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-15 04:10:31
August 14 2010 20:57 GMT
#16
Edit: I wanna change my post not because I'm wrong or gave bad advice. It's just Oystein is 1. a much better player who's post does and a better job answering your question and should be respected as law and 2. on the second page where he doesn't belong ^.^
On August 15 2010 12:40 Oystein wrote:
On most 3\4 player maps 12hatch is perfectly fine as long as you scout correctly with your first overlord to be able to change into an overpool if you see a probe, so you avoid having to go the trash 12pool. Personally I like to scout with a drone slightly before I expo or at the same time, going straight for the center looking for proxies first before I go regular scouting for his main. The advantages for 12hatch is that you get obviously a better econ, at the cost of losing an overlord or 2 more vs his first sairs if he goes nexus, gate before cannons compared to an overpool. Also once you get comfortable defending vs 2gates and proxies, you will have a way better build vs non proxied 2gates and 1gate tech builds than the overpool.

With an overpool you don`t really force cannons before nex either, since most good Ps will either do a slight probecut at 12\13 getting that nex up before they start cannons or pylon block you while trying to deny you from planting your first hatch while cannoning up at home. Of course if they do this their gate will be a bit later, so their tech will be delayed but their econ will still be good.

In the end its kinda just up to your own preferance what build to use, 12hatch will give you a better economy and versatility while overpool gives you more safety and offers possibly aggressive plays like doing a lingrunby. Knowing how to play both builds are your best choice instead of trying to only learn one.
MyLove + Your Love= Supa Love
Tazza
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Korea (South)1678 Posts
August 14 2010 21:13 GMT
#17
U do 12 hatch in zvt, and overpool in zvp. This is what most of the pros do
Frigo
Profile Joined August 2009
Hungary1023 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-15 01:02:46
August 15 2010 00:57 GMT
#18
I usually do gastrick-drone-overlord-10hatch-12pool both in ZvT and ZvP, never had any problems except for very close proxy rax on 2player maps, or very very early probe scouts. IMHO better than overpool or 12hatch. You could build your pool earlier though if you suspect cheese play.
http://www.fimfiction.net/user/Treasure_Chest
Papvin
Profile Joined May 2009
Denmark610 Posts
August 15 2010 01:27 GMT
#19
Hey there. Against Terran, to quote/paraphrase Day[9]: "Don't be pussy, 12 hatch always!!!". 12 hatch has simply been proven to be superior to every other opening in zvt, and it should be your staple build. If you're playing a BoX against someone, sure go ahead and mix your builds up, but on ladder, always 12 hatch!
Against Protoss, this is slightly tricky. I find blindly 12 hatching bad play, since if a probe scouts you on first try, you're hugely behind, having to go 12 pool, which SUCKS in zvp. So in general in zvp, go overpool. Though, on many maps, like Python and Fighting spirit, you can send your overlord so you will see if his probe finds you on first try. If it does, you'll see it in time to go overpool. If it doesn't, you can go 12 hatch. This is the way Calm and many other tip top zergs opens zvp, and I find it the strongest way to open.
"It's criminally negligent to dismiss Rock's contributions to other people's careers", Dukethegold
Uncle NayNay
Profile Joined August 2010
United States11 Posts
August 15 2010 02:22 GMT
#20
Against terran, a 12 hatch is definitely recommended, even on 2-player maps. The risk of getting bunker-rushed is outweighed by the fact that your opponent is unlikely to be Boxer, and thus at least has something less than a 9000% success rate. If the rush fails, then the zerg is considerably ahead. This is largely independent of the map, although rushes will be fairly more common on 2-player maps. However, the fact remains that a terran must predict a 12 hatch by the zerg BEFORE actually scouting them, and make a 2nd barracks before the scout gets there--sometimes at a proxy location. Otherwise the rush will fail for lack of marines. On the other hand, standard TvZ is to go CC after barracks anyways, and normally the terran commits to that from the start of the game.

Against protoss, I go overpool as a matter of course, because it can easily stop all 2-gate pressure builds, and transitions nicely into counters for forge FE. In particular:

1. The fast lings force the protoss to make up to 2 cannons before nexus, which puts their economy slightly behind yours.
2. The overpool build actually allows you to get your 3rd hatchery down slightly faster than a 12 hatch build, because you sit with more drones mining while your 2nd hatchery is morphing. But this can only translate into an advantage for the zerg if they can maintain that 3rd base. Then again, that's what that earlier pool is for.
3. Because of the nature of the faster 3rd, overpool builds start off very briefly aggressive with the early lings, then slowly accelerate the economy to a bone-crushing degree. The 12 hatch, on the other hand, gets a faster economy acceleration, because of the opportunity to saturate that 2nd base faster, rather than slowly adding drones at 3 hatcheries simultaneously. This can grant the flexibility of being able to expand slower but safer, as opposed to the rather greedy fast 3-base builds I tend to favor.
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