EPT**yes i saw the oystein fpvod of 12 hatch stopping proxy gates but is that really viable? it seems a toss with sick micro will destroy your 12 hatch as he will deny sunken placement ect. setting u back
zerg 12 hatch/overpool risk/benifit?
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Xma
United States147 Posts
**yes i saw the oystein fpvod of 12 hatch stopping proxy gates but is that really viable? it seems a toss with sick micro will destroy your 12 hatch as he will deny sunken placement ect. setting u back | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
12 hatch can defend proxy gates well enough as long as you use your lings to delay zealots and drones to protect sunkens. That's particularly convenient considering it's an economic choice. You're only really screwed if you go for 3 hatch before pool. Overpool/9 pool give you some map control, but 12 hatch gives you economy earlier. Your choice. | ||
Empyrean
16985 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
ZvP is one of my worst matchups so i just won't comment... | ||
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Xma
United States147 Posts
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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FyRe_DragOn
Canada2056 Posts
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Xma
United States147 Posts
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Timangi99
Sweden73 Posts
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micro7295
United States68 Posts
note: cheesing bots isnt as fun or exciting as ud like. neither is distracting idiot workers with 1 probe. they dont change  lol. works every timean early pool is generally not for an early contain. thats like the backup plan if ur cheese went horribly wrong. ur gonna get ur zerglings in there for a lil harassment to destroy some of their eco (to make up for urs) and ur gonna micro em and keep em in there for as long as possible . keep distracing them. vs terran, u can generally get 6 in b4 they make too many marines and u can usually cheese them very nicely once marines r dead (if theyre pretty good, theyll have walled off and had a few marines by the time u get there :p and then ur in trouble) | ||
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TheMute
United States458 Posts
For ZvP, 12 hatch is optimal vs 2 gate but bad vs proxy gates. Vs 2 gate get a sunken at nat right away. Proxy gates can be hard to deal with because lings don't come in time for first zeal. Personally, I don't like 12 hatch ZvP because P usually FEs and skips cannons and gets Nexus first. I like to force cannons so I go Overpool or Overpool speed. On 4p maps, P might still put down 2 cannons first to be safe when you 12 hatch. Or if you 12 hatch ZvP, make sure to block his nexus with your scouting drone like they always do to us! | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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O-ops
United States4236 Posts
On August 15 2010 04:46 ArvickHero wrote: vT if you decide to go for a 9 pool, then you should just go 9 pool burrow With all the idiots that 14cc these days 9 pool is viable  | ||
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Chaos
United States772 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
Against one-base plays: 12 Hatch Against defensible FEs: 12 Hatch or Overpool Against economic cheese: Overpool Overpool can generally delay an FE enough to make back the cost. | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
On August 15 2010 12:40 Oystein wrote: On most 3\4 player maps 12hatch is perfectly fine as long as you scout correctly with your first overlord to be able to change into an overpool if you see a probe, so you avoid having to go the trash 12pool. Personally I like to scout with a drone slightly before I expo or at the same time, going straight for the center looking for proxies first before I go regular scouting for his main. The advantages for 12hatch is that you get obviously a better econ, at the cost of losing an overlord or 2 more vs his first sairs if he goes nexus, gate before cannons compared to an overpool. Also once you get comfortable defending vs 2gates and proxies, you will have a way better build vs non proxied 2gates and 1gate tech builds than the overpool. With an overpool you don`t really force cannons before nex either, since most good Ps will either do a slight probecut at 12\13 getting that nex up before they start cannons or pylon block you while trying to deny you from planting your first hatch while cannoning up at home. Of course if they do this their gate will be a bit later, so their tech will be delayed but their econ will still be good. In the end its kinda just up to your own preferance what build to use, 12hatch will give you a better economy and versatility while overpool gives you more safety and offers possibly aggressive plays like doing a lingrunby. Knowing how to play both builds are your best choice instead of trying to only learn one. | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
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Frigo
Hungary1023 Posts
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Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
Against Protoss, this is slightly tricky. I find blindly 12 hatching bad play, since if a probe scouts you on first try, you're hugely behind, having to go 12 pool, which SUCKS in zvp. So in general in zvp, go overpool. Though, on many maps, like Python and Fighting spirit, you can send your overlord so you will see if his probe finds you on first try. If it does, you'll see it in time to go overpool. If it doesn't, you can go 12 hatch. This is the way Calm and many other tip top zergs opens zvp, and I find it the strongest way to open. | ||
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Uncle NayNay
United States11 Posts
Against protoss, I go overpool as a matter of course, because it can easily stop all 2-gate pressure builds, and transitions nicely into counters for forge FE. In particular: 1. The fast lings force the protoss to make up to 2 cannons before nexus, which puts their economy slightly behind yours. 2. The overpool build actually allows you to get your 3rd hatchery down slightly faster than a 12 hatch build, because you sit with more drones mining while your 2nd hatchery is morphing. But this can only translate into an advantage for the zerg if they can maintain that 3rd base. Then again, that's what that earlier pool is for. 3. Because of the nature of the faster 3rd, overpool builds start off very briefly aggressive with the early lings, then slowly accelerate the economy to a bone-crushing degree. The 12 hatch, on the other hand, gets a faster economy acceleration, because of the opportunity to saturate that 2nd base faster, rather than slowly adding drones at 3 hatcheries simultaneously. This can grant the flexibility of being able to expand slower but safer, as opposed to the rather greedy fast 3-base builds I tend to favor. | ||
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Twist King
United States60 Posts
but you can always put down that early hatchery. i personally like 12 pool into expansion. gas might be late but its sooo easy to take your third gas | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On August 15 2010 11:22 Uncle NayNay wrote: Against protoss, I go overpool as a matter of course, because it can easily stop all 2-gate pressure builds This is only true on maps that aren't toxic to 2 gate pressure builds. However, most modern maps are toxic to 2 gate pressure builds. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
With an overpool you don`t really force cannons before nex either, since most good Ps will either do a slight probecut at 12\13 getting that nex up before they start cannons or pylon block you while trying to deny you from planting your first hatch while cannoning up at home. Of course if they do this their gate will be a bit later, so their tech will be delayed but their econ will still be good. In the end its kinda just up to your own preferance what build to use, 12hatch will give you a better economy and versatility while overpool gives you more safety and offers possibly aggressive plays like doing a lingrunby. Knowing how to play both builds are your best choice instead of trying to only learn one. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On August 15 2010 11:22 Uncle NayNay wrote: 1. The fast lings force the protoss to make up to 2 cannons before nexus, which puts their economy slightly behind yours. Actually, Protoss can easily get away w/ 1 cannon vs overpool or even nine pool. In fact, current trends have Protosses going Forge-Nexus vs Overpool/Nine pool on some maps/some positions. Only versus any early gas does Protoss need to put down 2 cannons before Nexus. | ||
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DarkSaieden
South Africa254 Posts
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shucklesors
Singapore1176 Posts
for the rest, against protoss, normally overpool wont be good because players around D and maybe even C wont ever risk the slightly later cannons with your overpool, they normally strictly follow to guides on countering overpools and 12 hatch timings respectively. regarding terran, 12 hatch should MOSTLY be done. bunker rushes or bbs' just need a few drones, then after your hatch is done you might wanna drop a sunken immediately. nowadays the percentage of good ramp blockers are increasing, so the first 6 lings wont usually do much.. | ||
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hellbound
United Kingdom2242 Posts
 Also, does anyone feel insulted when your opponent goes for some high risk cheese? It just annoys me to hell, I wonder if anyone else has this problem... | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On August 15 2010 23:09 DarkSaieden wrote: I always overpool vs p, simply cos its all round. Even vs two gate, just make sure you get a surround on his 1st zealot with your 1st lings, and make more if needed. Then i just place my 3rd hatch at nat, and go straight for a 3 hatch hydra timing attack before his nat can kick in. I find going den, hydra speed, lair, ling speed, lurker, range, quite effective. LOL. 2 gate waits for 3 zealots to move out against an overpool for exactly this reason. Try playing against a 9/10 gate's 3 zealot 3-4 probe attack before you proclaim 2 gate such an easy foe. | ||
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MTSL_Mantra
United States20 Posts
Both builds (overpool/12hatch) are obviously viable, it just depends on the map and what you scout protoss doing. Unfortunately unless you send a drone scout you probably won't see if its a FE build or gateway pressure until you've already commited yourself to a 12 build. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
On August 15 2010 09:57 Frigo wrote: I usually do gastrick-drone-overlord-10hatch-12pool both in ZvT and ZvP, never had any problems except for very close proxy rax on 2player maps, or very very early probe scouts. IMHO better than overpool or 12hatch. You could build your pool earlier though if you suspect cheese play. Could any of the pro's please comment on that? I thought dual hatch is not viable, nor is extractor trick, except for 9 pool. | ||
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TriniMasta
United States1323 Posts
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Impervious
Canada4199 Posts
Pretty good economically, and easier to deal with rushes than a 12 hatch. 2/3 hatch ling or hydra all-ins seem to work better out of a 9 hatch, and a 2 hatch muta is still pretty respectable. I love that opening btw. So freaking safe and versatile, yet doesn't put you that far behind a 12 hatch. | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
vP - 12 hatch only on 4 player maps and awlays drone scout on 9, first to the usual proxy locations and then cross positions so you scout the middle. If you see a scouting probe go overpool or 9 pool if you spotted it with the overlord (that is the timing if he scouted you first) to force forge (+2 cannons for 9 pool) before nexus. You are scouting early so you will see if he is going for some kind of 2 gate. Never 12 hatch on 2 player maps, always overpool, that way if he is going for a FE he needs to get a forge then nexus and a cannon, and if he is doing some kind of 2 gate you go 3rd hatch in the natural with a bit of sim city and you are fine to go On August 15 2010 12:05 Severedevil wrote: This is only true on maps that aren't toxic to 2 gate pressure builds. However, most modern maps are toxic to 2 gate pressure builds. What do you mean by toxic? On August 16 2010 21:59 Impervious wrote: Nobody mentioned 9 hatch? Seriously? Pretty good economically, and easier to deal with rushes than a 12 hatch. 2/3 hatch ling or hydra all-ins seem to work better out of a 9 hatch, and a 2 hatch muta is still pretty respectable. I love that opening btw. So freaking safe and versatile, yet doesn't put you that far behind a 12 hatch. Actually, yes it does but you behind. 9/10 gatch is only for speedling all-in, you are far behind in economy and 2 hatch hydra/muta works better out of a 9 pool speed -> no scouting for the P, faster tech On August 15 2010 11:32 Twist King wrote: i feel overpool is the "safest" build to go vs P. it forces early cannons from the protoss but you can always put down that early hatchery. i personally like 12 pool into expansion. gas might be late but its sooo easy to take your third gas That is the worst build for zerg, I do it only if I get ebay rushed, or scout something with 9 drone. You can't agressive, so you dont force the opponent to make defence, you are not economically ahead, because 12 hatch surpases by far 12 pool. 12 pool expand is for ZvZ and ZvT 2 hatch muta On August 16 2010 17:53 Metaspace wrote: Could any of the pro's please comment on that? I thought dual hatch is not viable, nor is extractor trick, except for 9 pool. I am by no means a pro, but like I said before, 9/10 hatch is only vialbe for zergling all-in and extractor trick helps you only with those 2 and 9 pool, since it gives you a bit of economy, which you need if you deal enough damage but dont kill the opponent and need to transition out of it On August 16 2010 01:10 Severedevil wrote: LOL. 2 gate waits for 3 zealots to move out against an overpool for exactly this reason. Try playing against a 9/10 gate's 3 zealot 3-4 probe attack before you proclaim 2 gate such an easy foe. Like I mentioned, 3 hatch on 2 bases with good simcity to fend this off and then 3 hatch hydra | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
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Impervious
Canada4199 Posts
Of course it is not as good economically as a 12 hatch..... then again, 12/13 hatch 12 pool is better than a 12 hatch 11 pool 13 hatch, when it comes to economy, but will leave you dead in the water against any kind of rush..... It's all about where you want to draw the line. If you want something to use as a "standard opening", I would at least suggest giving it a shot. It opens pretty nicely into 2 or 3 hatch plays (including the 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra). It is not only for speedling all-ins only..... I used this opening in hundreds of games at the C- level, and it feels more comfortable than any other opening I've tried massing games with. I'd still suggest learning the 12 hatch opening, since it is better to use if you expect no crazy play from your opponent (maybe you're in a tournament or a Bo5 with someone, and you know they wont cheese you). Same thing for 9 pool speed..... But, as a standard opening for laddering, or as a specific anti-cheese opening, I love it. And that is what he's asking for. I have no idea what rank he is, but he's likely D/D+ (C- is where the cheesing seems to slow down). He also seems to have some difficulties with the micro required to pull off a 12 hatch against a bunker rush or a 2 gate opening..... And, before you ask, yes, I did practice 9 hatch against Z and R players..... It does work, decently..... You really need to find some breathing room to get an extra 3 drones (minimum) quickly though in ZvZ. But the timings are different than a 12 hatch, which can throw your opponent off, and they can underestimate how many zerglings you can make early on for a hatch-first opening, which can help against a greedy player. | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
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FyRe_DragOn
Canada2056 Posts
On August 15 2010 12:40 Oystein wrote: On most 3\4 player maps 12hatch is perfectly fine as long as you scout correctly with your first overlord to be able to change into an overpool if you see a probe, so you avoid having to go the trash 12pool. Personally I like to scout with a drone slightly before I expo or at the same time, going straight for the center looking for proxies first before I go regular scouting for his main. The advantages for 12hatch is that you get obviously a better econ, at the cost of losing an overlord or 2 more vs his first sairs if he goes nexus, gate before cannons compared to an overpool. Also once you get comfortable defending vs 2gates and proxies, you will have a way better build vs non proxied 2gates and 1gate tech builds than the overpool. With an overpool you don`t really force cannons before nex either, since most good Ps will either do a slight probecut at 12\13 getting that nex up before they start cannons or pylon block you while trying to deny you from planting your first hatch while cannoning up at home. Of course if they do this their gate will be a bit later, so their tech will be delayed but their econ will still be good. In the end its kinda just up to your own preferance what build to use, 12hatch will give you a better economy and versatility while overpool gives you more safety and offers possibly aggressive plays like doing a lingrunby. Knowing how to play both builds are your best choice instead of trying to only learn one. how do you change a 12hatch into an overpool? :o edit: nm im retarded..you mean you scout center w/ overlord first right? | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On August 17 2010 03:16 FyRe_DragOn wrote: how do you change a 12hatch into an overpool? :o edit: nm im retarded..you mean you scout center w/ overlord first right? Correct, on most maps you can scout in a way that will show you both if hes probe is finding you on the first pos, and what position its coming from. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On August 16 2010 17:53 Metaspace wrote: Could any of the pro's please comment on that? I thought dual hatch is not viable, nor is extractor trick, except for 9 pool. There's nothing non-viable about it, it's just a small adjustment on the 12 hatch. You get your 10th drone fast --> it gets to mine more, and you get your second hatchery faster for faster creep and larva (without wasting any larva). However, by delaying your 11th and 12th drones you end up with slightly less money than a 12 hatch. If you want slightly faster creep and slightly more larva in exchange for slightly less cash, it's a reasonable adjustment to make. (Also, if you want an early drone scout, you can scout with the 10th drone and still have one miner on each patch. I think you can do this without wasting any larva - not sure.) A lot of maps are hideously bad for 2 gate openings, primarily because the rush distances are too long to use slow zealots. On those maps, Zerg can open with anything and still defend easily. On maps that don't hardcounter 2 gate, overpool and especially 9 pool speed are weak to 2 gate openings. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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WhoNeedsMacro
Canada43 Posts
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explicit
52 Posts
And is 12 hatch proven to put you in a better position for the intial push/harass even? Sounds abit early to me, either making the pool come later or putting your econ so much behind that you'll either have less workers or food in total at the time when most pushes come - compared to a 14 or 15 hatch that is. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
Overpool (and especially 9 Pool or 4/5 pool) punishes greedy plays and proxy plays. It's bad against most one-base plays since they just hold their ramp, and normally have plenty of units to do so, so the timing at which you have more Zerglings than a 12 hatchery build is rendered useless. (Although it would punish an extremely greedy one-base tech build. If Terran assumed the Zerg would 12 hatch, Terran might skip a wall and marines and rely on his first vulture to deal with Zerglings. Or a Protoss might tech straight to Corsair or even Reaver without delaying at all for ground units.) One-base plays aren't the standard, however, and a 9 Pool/Overpool (and even 12 pool, sometimes) can force the Terran or Protoss player to delay their expansion and/or build extra static defenses. | ||
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explicit
52 Posts
On August 18 2010 06:40 Severedevil wrote: What is 9 OL? Overpool uses 9 Overlord. So do 12 Pool and 12 Hatch. Overpool (and especially 9 Pool or 4/5 pool) punishes greedy plays and proxy plays. It's bad against most one-base plays since they just hold their ramp, and normally have plenty of units to do so, so the timing at which you have more Zerglings than a 12 hatchery build is rendered useless. (Although it would punish an extremely greedy one-base tech build. If Terran assumed the Zerg would 12 hatch, Terran might skip a wall and marines and rely on his first vulture to deal with Zerglings. Or a Protoss might tech straight to Corsair or even Reaver without delaying at all for ground units.) One-base plays aren't the standard, however, and a 9 Pool/Overpool (and even 12 pool, sometimes) can force the Terran or Protoss player to delay their expansion and/or build extra static defenses. I just assumed overpool meant going pool at 10 and then overlord at nine again:p But 12 hatch i though meant you'd go double extractor into hatch at 12, then pool at 11 and OL at 10 again. Just tested this and pool+hatch finished at the exact same time with some money for queens. Ill check 9OL with 12 hatch now | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
In Broodwar, supply is capped at 9 until you build an overlord (or another hatchery). Hence 9 pool and 9 overlord are the normal two branches. 9 pool can be followed with gas & overlord, or with Extractor Trick --> 10th drone & overlord. 9 Overlord is normally followed with a pool ("Overpool"), or some drones --> pool ("12 Pool"), or some drones --> hatch --> pool ("12 hatch"). There are other options, but those are the normal choices. | ||
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J1.
United States2 Posts
The overpool build is a standard and the correct way to go versing any random protoss you have never met on the ladder. If you 12 Hatch versing a normal 2 gate with the protoss bringing some probes, you will get overrun easily. If you see that the protoss forge fast expanded, you are safe and you don't need to make many lings and start pumping drones again. The 12 hatchery build versing a Terran should be fine. Your lings plus sunkens should be enough to defend any early pressure and will give you a big economical lead against your opponent. This should be important to any new and upcoming zerg to use as a guide because often times, 12 hatchery can lead to easy losses for no reason versing a protoss. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1803 Posts
On March 09 2011 19:05 J1. wrote: I agree with Uncle NayNay 100%. The overpool build is a standard and the correct way to go versing any random protoss you have never met on the ladder. If you 12 Hatch versing a normal 2 gate with the protoss bringing some probes, you will get overrun easily. If you see that the protoss forge fast expanded, you are safe and you don't need to make many lings and start pumping drones again. The 12 hatchery build versing a Terran should be fine. Your lings plus sunkens should be enough to defend any early pressure and will give you a big economical lead against your opponent. This should be important to any new and upcoming zerg to use as a guide because often times, 12 hatchery can lead to easy losses for no reason versing a protoss. i've heard people say that going 12 hatch is a better situation to be in rather than a 9 pool. all you have to do is to let your hatch take a few hits, save up lings and plant down a sunken and you will be in a good position. | ||
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hellbound
United Kingdom2242 Posts
On March 09 2011 22:55 JMave wrote: i've heard people say that going 12 hatch is a better situation to be in rather than a 9 pool. all you have to do is to let your hatch take a few hits, save up lings and plant down a sunken and you will be in a good position. Depends on how early the gates are and if they are proxied or not. If he 2gates inbase 12 hatch is the best build to deal with it for me. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
The thing is, you're going to need the extra lings from that second hatch. If you overpool, then you will have 6 lings out when he only has 1 zealot, but if he waits a little bit he will have zealots coming out of 2 gates while you can only produce lings as fast as you get larva off 1 hatch, which is no good. Generally 9 pool builds are better because they offer more versatility. 1 base 2 gate builds are sort of their weakness, but the effectiveness of 1 base 2 gate is very map dependent to begin with. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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shinjin
United States398 Posts
On August 18 2010 07:02 explicit wrote: I just assumed overpool meant going pool at 10 and then overlord at nine again:p But 12 hatch i though meant you'd go double extractor into hatch at 12, then pool at 11 and OL at 10 again. Just tested this and pool+hatch finished at the exact same time with some money for queens. Ill check 9OL with 12 hatch now what a winner hmm, this thread is interesting. I always thought 3 hatch before pool was plausible in zvp for some reason, so if they put the nexus right after forge, you would still have an econ advantage | ||
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Frigo
Hungary1023 Posts
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Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
On March 17 2011 16:59 shinjin wrote: what a winner hmm, this thread is interesting. I always thought 3 hatch before pool was plausible in zvp for some reason, so if they put the nexus right after forge, you would still have an econ advantage With the current PvZ meta, the Neo-Bisu build makes it incredibly dangerous to get more than two hatches before pool. Not only does it allow Toss to punish more effetively. but it severely delays tech needed to counter Neo-Bisu like mutas and lurkers. | ||
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Zyferous
United States270 Posts
12 Hatch/Overpool ZvP is really match specific. What I find is that if it is a 4 player map, I will 12 hatch, and if it is a 2 player map, I will overpool. My reasoning is that unless they scout you first, a 12 hatch will deny any opportunity of them blocking your expansion. In addition, if they don't scout you first, protoss will be tempted to place at least one or two cannons down preemptively anyways. Overpool on a 2 player map will force the protoss player to build two cannons at his natural, or outright kills him if he somehow decides to only build one cannon or 14 nex's. | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
On August 15 2010 04:46 ArvickHero wrote: vT if you decide to go for a 9 pool, then you should just go 9 pool burrow I've always wondered how effective that is (assuming Terran is going for the usual fast expand and not some one base play). Does the zerg come out economically ahead? It'd be great if someone could shed some light on this. | ||
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