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On August 20 2010 16:59 JuddCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 07:24 basx_ble wrote:On August 08 2010 05:46 Severedevil wrote:On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote:
As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'. Peddle your goat shit in the SC2 forum. o.o chill down....? lol User was banned for this post. Overreaction much? I understand the rules tell you to respect people with more posts than you, but did he really deserve to get banned for telling someone who was swearing at him to calm down? Anyway, why aren't mass mutas a viable option? You could prevent your opponent from expanding, and if you make enough, they'll have to send most of their army to come get you(assuming they even have enough Goliaths to stop it) and you can just fly right over to their base while they try to scurry back. It would take advantage of their immobility to the maximum, since mutas are so quick. AND it would make any tanks they may have produced pretty much useless. And couldn't you just keep that up while expanding yourself until they starve? I'm guessing there's a gaping hole in this suggestion because no one else seems to have said this alone is enough to win.
irradiate
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On August 20 2010 17:23 b0lt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 16:59 JuddCaster wrote:On August 08 2010 07:24 basx_ble wrote:On August 08 2010 05:46 Severedevil wrote:On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote:
As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'. Peddle your goat shit in the SC2 forum. o.o chill down....? lol User was banned for this post. Overreaction much? I understand the rules tell you to respect people with more posts than you, but did he really deserve to get banned for telling someone who was swearing at him to calm down? Anyway, why aren't mass mutas a viable option? You could prevent your opponent from expanding, and if you make enough, they'll have to send most of their army to come get you(assuming they even have enough Goliaths to stop it) and you can just fly right over to their base while they try to scurry back. It would take advantage of their immobility to the maximum, since mutas are so quick. AND it would make any tanks they may have produced pretty much useless. And couldn't you just keep that up while expanding yourself until they starve? I'm guessing there's a gaping hole in this suggestion because no one else seems to have said this alone is enough to win. irradiate
And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
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I came in here to say mass muta's as well. Irradiate is strong of course but surely mutas can reach a critical mass where they are very difficult to kill? Go double spire for ups. Use the extra minerals to push out sunk lines and abuse their immobility even more, use a few guardians defensively over sunks. Maybe even some ensnare on goliaths to slow down firing and retreating? Assuming you're ahead on bases against the Terran you know they have to push out at some point or simply starve, so prehaps playing more of a passive game and simply using the huge muta count to crush pushes as they reach one of your bases is a good idea. Rather than attacking an entrenched position where they can set up silly amounts of turrets.
The best thing is you are turning their advantage of small chokes and ramps against them. Providing you can keep the vessel count low theoretically at least it sounds ok.
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On August 06 2010 06:00 DJONES wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 23:51 SubtleArt wrote:
It seems as if the only way for Zerg to win is to outplay the Terran, which doesnt seem fair.
If you outplay your opponent, you win. If your opponent outplays you, they win. Seems perfectly fair to me.
you make a good point. lol 
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On August 21 2010 02:27 Pedo.Bear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 06:00 DJONES wrote:On August 05 2010 23:51 SubtleArt wrote:
It seems as if the only way for Zerg to win is to outplay the Terran, which doesnt seem fair.
If you outplay your opponent, you win. If your opponent outplays you, they win. Seems perfectly fair to me. you make a good point. lol
Not exactly, he was implying that if two players are of equal skill, the Zerg won't win. I'm not commenting on the balance myself, just clarifying what he seems to have meant.
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And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
What if they get some valkyries to complement? Valkyries aren't that slow and once they get 4-5 I think your mutalisks would be doomed. And once they have 4-5 valkyries, scourges can't do that much eitehr anymore?
Note: I'm new to broodwar. Just trying to learn.
+ Do zergs still have trouble versus this strategy nowadays? Or have they figured out the 'optimal' way of dealing with this?
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On May 06 2012 00:43 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +
And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
What if they get some valkyries to complement? Valkyries aren't that slow and once they get 4-5 I think your mutalisks would be doomed. And once they have 4-5 valkyries, scourges can't do that much eitehr anymore? Note: I'm new to broodwar. Just trying to learn. + Do zergs still have trouble versus this strategy nowadays? Or have they figured out the 'optimal' way of dealing with this?
Zergs have figured out how to defeat this strat by using Queens for broodling. In a long drawn out game, late game broodling completely nullify this strategy.
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On May 06 2012 00:43 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +
And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
What if they get some valkyries to complement? Valkyries aren't that slow and once they get 4-5 I think your mutalisks would be doomed. And once they have 4-5 valkyries, scourges can't do that much eitehr anymore? Note: I'm new to broodwar. Just trying to learn. + Do zergs still have trouble versus this strategy nowadays? Or have they figured out the 'optimal' way of dealing with this?
The post you quoted is almost 2 years old, and the meta game has shifted a little since then. AFAIK massing mutalisks vT is fairly rare nowadays, at least in the recent games I've seen. And yeah, irradiate or valkyries does practically shut even large groups of mutas down unless the T doesn't control properly or the zerg has a ridiculous supply lead.
edit: re-read the post you quoted, and he wasn't even talking about mass muta in pro-games, but at any level. The above still applies though.
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United States11390 Posts
On May 06 2012 01:08 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:43 wcr.4fun wrote:
And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
What if they get some valkyries to complement? Valkyries aren't that slow and once they get 4-5 I think your mutalisks would be doomed. And once they have 4-5 valkyries, scourges can't do that much eitehr anymore? Note: I'm new to broodwar. Just trying to learn. + Do zergs still have trouble versus this strategy nowadays? Or have they figured out the 'optimal' way of dealing with this? Zergs have figured out how to defeat this strat by using Queens for broodling. In a long drawn out game, late game broodling completely nullify this strategy.
???
Queens are nullified by valks unless you manage to catch valks out of position like Effort vs Iris. (that error and just overall being too old and slow so he was mining map too late ((read: when he is being attacked)) and not taking the bott right expos when he could have killed him as he should have won that just fine)
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On May 06 2012 01:08 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:43 wcr.4fun wrote:
And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
What if they get some valkyries to complement? Valkyries aren't that slow and once they get 4-5 I think your mutalisks would be doomed. And once they have 4-5 valkyries, scourges can't do that much eitehr anymore? Note: I'm new to broodwar. Just trying to learn. + Do zergs still have trouble versus this strategy nowadays? Or have they figured out the 'optimal' way of dealing with this? Zergs have figured out how to defeat this strat by using Queens for broodling. In a long drawn out game, late game broodling completely nullify this strategy.
There was a debate about this is the Terran Meeting thread...
The only times when queens work is when the opponents has very low goliath count. If the opponent has very low goliath count, mutas be able to do their damage and continue doing damage. Queens however do damage once and wait for energy.
So if there is a situation where broodling vs mech is viable, then you would do better to get mutas.
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The thing is, T is 'weak' 2 two points IMO: before/while getting the third base and getting the fourth base to transition into mech completely. The first time is weak because while getting a third they have to stop vessel production and slap down 2 more factories + armory to ready the mech transition. The fourth base timing they usually set down way more factories, lift the rax, and only have 3-5 factories going at that time.
The third base denial/delay/counterplay is probably one of the most important things Zergs should consider in late mech play probably...unlike bio, which has a relatively linear strength that can be cut down w/ enough ultras (just like PvZ hanbang push w/ 4 temps + obs), mech is just bad once it hits that critical strength (just like PvZ 3/4 base with archon/temp/reaver). I'm pretty sure you canNOT have more than 3 factory/starport buildings running at the same time on 2 gas without hampering your bio composition or tech...But there's no telling what happens when they get 3/4 gas. And T doesn't even need a 'critical mass' of tanks to start their DMZ of death - just a few tanks in the right places and enough mines laid by the earlier vultures during the 3rd base + 2 factories + armory transition (as we saw in the Flash vs Effort game).
All in all, again just like in ZvP, Z should prioritize denying the third/fourth bases (just like vs pure mech) while being much more 'aggressive' in a sense (AKA minesweeping and harassing and countering much more instead of always moving their army to deal with the T attacking their 4th gas in hopes that ultra tech comes soon). That way the TANKS can't get set up and the mines (hopefully) decrease. The optimal army is probably what the pros just use nowadays...mix of hydra/lurk/ling + defiler...
Drops though aren't really any more effective here than it is in any other matchup. Before transition, the drops are the same as against bio, during the transition it's slightly worse b/c they have vultures + mines, and if you don't use drops vs pure mech, well, can't help you there. Drops should always be an option probably, regardless of whether it's late mech or not.
EDIT: Blech vulture harassment. uhm....have defiler + 2 sunks at each chokepoint/base and swarm the drones?
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On August 06 2010 09:10 shawster wrote:
watch jaedong come up with a build to counter this
8 hatch queen
2hatch ultra
Bump!
Let's talk about how Zerg can counter this!
How can Zerg counter this?
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Bump again.
I'm a very old C Terran scrub from ~2006-2011, and I was not around during the TvZ/ZvT mech switch meta shift. I've been catching up on the TvZ MU by reading several other threads, including a few of Jukado's posts and summaries, on how the meta works from both sides, along with watching a lot of Flash and Larvae FPVODs. I think I'm fairly caught up, but there are two questions that are still lingering in my mind.
From watching top tier players, it seems that after the critical Zerg 3rd gas timing, barring special circumstances, the subsequent timings that are available to the Zerg are completely cut off by spider mines and Science Vessels. This typically leads to the Terran getting an easy 3rd gas, and allows the Zerg to get an easy 4th gas as well. What I'm wondering is if it's possible to time 2-3 Queens after the first defiler + consume upgrade to punish the Terran trying to expand to his 3rd base and 4th bases by infesting the Command Center? With zerglings, scourge, and just one successful infestation, it might be possible to delay the Terran economy long enough for the Zerg to gather his footing... the alternative would be to just keep playing "build the deflier, get irradiated, cast defensive dark swarm" cycle.
Alternatively, one thing that hasn't seemed to change is that Zergs really don't like using overlords to hide the defilers because it's too passive and are still very insistent on being aggressive with their defilers/T3 tech. At this point though, if the Zerg is going to be forced into a defensive position due to some reason, it might become necessary to upgrade Ventral Sacs or Burrow (hotkey + hide the deflier under overlords) earlier to stop the endless waste of gas going towards irradiated defilers and lurkers to allow Zergs to prolong their defensive position, solidify their economy, and give them more options in the mid game.
Overall, from watching a bunch of TvZ videos, I feel like Zergs are tunnel-visioning into "there is only one true way to play this match-up" and are relying too heavily on the old ways, thereby limiting their options in the mid-late game. Getting a couple queens after the defliers and getting earlier Ventral Sacs would expand their options in the mid-late game to at least try to stop the Terran from becoming a 4gas powerhouse with Mech.
+ Show Spoiler +Or, Flash is just that damn good
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First of all, (pro) Zergs are doing fine in the matchup. It's still Terran favored but not that much. Also, the problem is usually the mid game and not the late game.
And Terran is usually defending the expansions with small groups of marines. If they don't you can take it out with anything: mutas, drops etc. Queen would just be a way to kill the CC faster, and is already used by most zergs, not always of course.
Not to mention getting queens too early could lead to an easy loss, when you take into account that Zerg defense relies on a small amount of gas units e.g. one defiler +two lurkers
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On July 16 2017 21:51 ortseam wrote:
First of all, (pro) Zergs are doing fine in the matchup. It's still Terran favored but not that much. Also, the problem is usually the mid game and not the late game.
And Terran is usually defending the expansions with small groups of marines. If they don't you can take it out with anything: mutas, drops etc. Queen would just be a way to kill the CC faster, and is already used by most zergs, not always of course.
Not to mention getting queens too early could lead to an easy loss, when you take into account that Zerg defense relies on a small amount of gas units e.g. one defiler +two lurkers
Low level Zergs id say C/C- rank you can usually kill the 3rd with the initial 5rax then starve them out of gas into a win. Thats what I usually do anyway and it works id say 90% of the time. They cant survive without Defilers and making them will eat into an already hurting gas bank while you take a 3rd you can even go SK Terran and when they finally hit the bottom of the barrel gas wise you just a move them down and win
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I think you could get away with a lot at C/C- level TvZ. The gameplay revolving around the 3rd gas is already too much for some players to deal with, for both sides. I was just wondering why Zerg players only try to win by smashing the Mine/Tank lines with Ultra/Ling/Defiler after taking a 4th gas, or, with very reactionary/impromptu queen usage. There must be some other options available after the 3rd gas to stop the Terran from expanding.
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Well, they don't "only" try this style. JD has been using one recently, with hydra/muta timing just as tank production starts, hydra queen has been used extensively(not very popular lately), muta switch is still part of the zerg lategame, Larva often making very few ultras and winning with defiler/ling/queen, effort tried delaying hive and switching to queens very fast a while ago. I even remember a game (s2 vs ssak on FS), where S2 kinda did what you are suggesting, with few queens early on into hydra timing (3rd snipe).
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EPT
