EPT[D] TvZ Bio --> mech - Page 3
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Frigo
Hungary1023 Posts
Can an aggressive lurker/hydra kill terran while he's switching? Is it possible to exploit mech weakness and backstab like in the case of pure mech? | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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LetMeShine
979 Posts
On August 07 2010 03:15 Frigo wrote: I always wondered why terrans keep up m&m production when its capability to deal damage gets significantly weaker and they need to transition to tank and mines anyway. Can an aggressive lurker/hydra kill terran while he's switching? Is it possible to exploit mech weakness and backstab like in the case of pure mech? Zero vs Fantasy on Fighting Spirit was pretty much like this. Zero faked an expansion and used his zerglings to defuse any mines along the south border. He then dropped cracklings, defilers, and lurkers inside Fantasy's base and pretty much tore most of it down because Fantasy's army was all the way out in the middle maintaining map control. Of course mileage may vary. Fantasy's valkyries were caught out of position and he didn't really have any anti air defense. I think zerg have to start being less dependent on mutalisks and start using a proper ground army to maintain map control to prevent terran from setting up key positions where they can slow push into expansions. Flash vs Zero (pure mech this is but I think the idea still stands) is a pretty good example where Flash didn't really care about Zero's paltry mutalisk and hydralisk force because neither would or could stop Flash from setting up barricades around his half of the map. | ||
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kidcrash
United States623 Posts
1. Ultralisks. They get raped by mines all day and eventually you are just burning money by producing them 2. Mutalisks. Such a small window of opportunity for such little results, most of the times I feel players are just better off saving their money for something else. They become obsolete too fast. 3. Lurkers. Now I understand lurkers have a very important role vs this strategy. Their job is to hold back the medic marine blob and prevent vulture run bys. Once the tanks get to pumping however, lurkers start to become blown to pieces all over the battle field. I'm suggesting building minimal lurkers, as needed, to defend before hive tech. I feel like hydralisks would compliment the guardians in late game because the hydras can keep the valkyries and science vessels off of them. The key would be to keep the guardians over your hydralisks just like you keep your overlords with your hydras in pvz. This is of course when dealing with a heavy valkyrie/science vessel type composition. To me, it seems like this would also be more likely to catch the terran off guard because when they see a lack of lurkers and mutas, they will be more inclined to skimp on the vessels and valks which are the good units for countering guardians. Of course lings will be your staple unit for defusing mines and as a mineral sink. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Frigo
Hungary1023 Posts
I'd say the best response to the switch would be exping, mass muta, backstabbing and sniping tanks and reinforcements, into mass hydra. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On August 07 2010 22:31 koreasilver wrote: The thing about using guardians is that goliaths actually do quite well against them since the goliath AA attack has ridiculous range, and because guardians take full damage against the goliath air attack, unlike mutalisks that only take half (and even then mutalisks often lose to goliaths). If the Terran has kept a decent tank count then it's hard for the hydras to protect the guardians from goliaths and even vessels because the tank range will melt your hydras if they try to get into the range where they can attack the vessels and goliaths. Hydra guardian can work really well against a standard bio composition but it's rather hard to transition into that unit composition when the game starts off as a normal 1rax cc bio vs 3hatch muta. The transition to hydraguardian off of 2hatch mutas is really all-in as you are squeezing all your resources into an attempted killing attack, so in that case the person who wins is already kinda decided when the hydraguardian attack happens. If you fail to break the Terran right then then you're kinda dead unless you do some grievous damage, then you've kinda won before the whole mech transition happens anyway. I find it pretty easy to transition to hydraguardian after 2 hatch muta (and not be all-in because I've got 3 bases), but maybe I'm just playing at too low a level. If Terran is contained, it's pretty easy to set up hydras outside his base at some sort of ramp/choke-ish space and jump him when he comes out. Unlike lurkers, hydras can take down valks/vessels, they're a lot more mobile, and you don't need to spend all your larva on Zerglings to back them up --> extra drones. | ||
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basx_ble
3 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'. Peddle your goat shit in the SC2 forum. | ||
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basx_ble
3 Posts
On August 08 2010 05:46 Severedevil wrote: Peddle your goat shit in the SC2 forum. o.o chill down....? lol User was banned for this post. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On August 08 2010 05:39 Severedevil wrote: I find it pretty easy to transition to hydraguardian after 2 hatch muta (and not be all-in because I've got 3 bases), but maybe I'm just playing at too low a level. If Terran is contained, it's pretty easy to set up hydras outside his base at some sort of ramp/choke-ish space and jump him when he comes out. Unlike lurkers, hydras can take down valks/vessels, they're a lot more mobile, and you don't need to spend all your larva on Zerglings to back them up --> extra drones. You always get a third gas when you're going guardians off of 2hatch muta. There's almost no reason that you won't be able to take a third during the mutalisk timing. The thing is, it doesn't really matter if you have a third or not because if you go guardians off of 2hatch muta you will have to continuously pump mutalisks in order to go guardians, and your quick hive for the sake of getting guardians makes you extremely fragile as you'll have nothing else (no ground upgrades, no lurkers, no defilers). You're squeezing all your resources into guardians and mutas (or hydras) and so your third is meaningless in creating a stable unit composition and economy for the late game. It basically just becomes a means to get the gas for guardians. There is really just no way that going guardians off of 2hatch muta will not be an all-in. If you don't kill the Terran or inflict some grievous damage to them you will lose the game. Setting hydras outside of the Terran's base isn't going to do anything compared to lurkers. Lurkers are just far better at making it difficult for the Terran to move through a specific choke. You won't be able to spend your larva on drones either, because unlike lurkers that can hold their ground in relatively small numbers, hydras need to reach a very high mass to be effective. That means you're going to have to spend more, if not all your larva on hydras once you start to produce them. Using lurkerling gives you much more leeway to produce drones. On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'. rofl | ||
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-ty[r]ant
United States140 Posts
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'. Go back to SC2, clearly you know nothing of historical Brood War. There have been ebbs and flows in matchups like this for a long, long time, all the way back to when people like Grrr... ExecutorZileas and GARIMTO were head of the pack. Your attempt at insight is just going to garner poor responses. | ||
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basx_ble
3 Posts
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
On August 07 2010 22:31 koreasilver wrote: The thing about using guardians is that goliaths actually do quite well against them since the goliath AA attack has ridiculous range, and because guardians take full damage against the goliath air attack, unlike mutalisks that only take half (and even then mutalisks often lose to goliaths). If the Terran has kept a decent tank count then it's hard for the hydras to protect the guardians from goliaths and even vessels because the tank range will melt your hydras if they try to get into the range where they can attack the vessels and goliaths. Hydra guardian can work really well against a standard bio composition but it's rather hard to transition into that unit composition when the game starts off as a normal 1rax cc bio vs 3hatch muta. The transition to hydraguardian off of 2hatch mutas is really all-in as you are squeezing all your resources into an attempted killing attack, so in that case the person who wins is already kinda decided when the hydraguardian attack happens. If you fail to break the Terran right then then you're kinda dead unless you do some grievous damage, then you've kinda won before the whole mech transition happens anyway. what about guardian mutalisk combo? in the same way goliaths reduce effectiveness of muta micro, guardians can reduce effectiveness of goliath micro, and that mutalisks can sponge the goliath missile attacks having a cloud of mutalisks and 6-12 guardians, if the goliaths run in to snipe the guardians they'll be taking a whole loud of damage from mutalisk fire and if they run back, they'll be prone to picking off from guardians anyways, guardians are as mobile as terran mech anyways | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
Well you did offer one of the most retarded comments in recent memory...what reaction do you expect? | ||
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kidcrash
United States623 Posts
On August 08 2010 07:40 koreasilver wrote: You always get a third gas when you're going guardians off of 2hatch muta. There's almost no reason that you won't be able to take a third during the mutalisk timing. The thing is, it doesn't really matter if you have a third or not because if you go guardians off of 2hatch muta you will have to continuously pump mutalisks in order to go guardians, and your quick hive for the sake of getting guardians makes you extremely fragile as you'll have nothing else (no ground upgrades, no lurkers, no defilers). You're squeezing all your resources into guardians and mutas (or hydras) and so your third is meaningless in creating a stable unit composition and economy for the late game. It basically just becomes a means to get the gas for guardians. There is really just no way that going guardians off of 2hatch muta will not be an all-in. If you don't kill the Terran or inflict some grievous damage to them you will lose the game. Setting hydras outside of the Terran's base isn't going to do anything compared to lurkers. Lurkers are just far better at making it difficult for the Terran to move through a specific choke. You won't be able to spend your larva on drones either, because unlike lurkers that can hold their ground in relatively small numbers, hydras need to reach a very high mass to be effective. That means you're going to have to spend more, if not all your larva on hydras once you start to produce them. Using lurkerling gives you much more leeway to produce drones. rofl I wouldn't suggest completely forgoing lurker tech, however once hive tech is reached I believe the gas being used to produce lurkers might be better off spent on guardians. The reason being is, guardians do a much better job at breaking tanks lines than lurkers do. In fact tanks pretty much completely negate lurkers usefulness after a certain point. Just take a second to compare tank vs lurker with goliath vs guardian. At least guardians stand a fighting chance against goliaths unlike lurkers getting sieged by tanks which ends up being a stomp fest. Sure mutalisks could do the same role but nine times out of ten you end up suiciding most of your mutas to pick off a few tanks. As far as forgoing ground upgrades and defiler tech, I feel as if ground upgrades would take the priority over defiler tech. Then you can use your guardians to hold back the terran push the same way lurkers do during lair tech, allowing you to take a 4th and 5th before you invest in heavy defiler tech. Basically you use them to contain the push and create map control while you expo. Hydra, of course being used when you are ready for a heavy offensive. | ||
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JuddCaster
United States45 Posts
On August 08 2010 07:24 basx_ble wrote: o.o chill down....? lol User was banned for this post. Overreaction much? I understand the rules tell you to respect people with more posts than you, but did he really deserve to get banned for telling someone who was swearing at him to calm down? Anyway, why aren't mass mutas a viable option? You could prevent your opponent from expanding, and if you make enough, they'll have to send most of their army to come get you(assuming they even have enough Goliaths to stop it) and you can just fly right over to their base while they try to scurry back. It would take advantage of their immobility to the maximum, since mutas are so quick. AND it would make any tanks they may have produced pretty much useless. And couldn't you just keep that up while expanding yourself until they starve? I'm guessing there's a gaping hole in this suggestion because no one else seems to have said this alone is enough to win. | ||
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TriniMasta
United States1323 Posts
On August 06 2010 00:20 Firien wrote: terran imba  i believe you could drop your way to win. You can drop on top of tanks like in that zero vs flash game(didnt work there, but i believe if he attacked any other position with such mass drops he would have breaked the line . the left side of polaris rhapsody is more wide open) or you could try dropping some in main ( possibly defilers + lurkers under swarm; lurkers are really good if they have time to burrow under swarm, if u could burrow them on the main-->natural ramp you could possibly delay tanks for a while before irradiate comes) i think they could use guardians or just mutalisks to deal with mines and attack only after clearing all the mines up. and you can always DONT ATTACK and wait till they come. On polaris rhapsody there are good siege positions everywhere, but on fighting spirit the moment he would decide to attack with good scouting you could break it. I hope that first line was sarcasm... On August 20 2010 16:59 JuddCaster wrote: Overreaction much? I understand the rules tell you to respect people with more posts than you, but did he really deserve to get banned for telling someone who was swearing at him to calm down? Anyway, why aren't mass mutas a viable option? You could prevent your opponent from expanding, and if you make enough, they'll have to send most of their army to come get you(assuming they even have enough Goliaths to stop it) and you can just fly right over to their base while they try to scurry back. It would take advantage of their immobility to the maximum, since mutas are so quick. AND it would make any tanks they may have produced pretty much useless. And couldn't you just keep that up while expanding yourself until they starve? I'm guessing there's a gaping hole in this suggestion because no one else seems to have said this alone is enough to win. +1 Thought I was misreading it wrong lol | ||
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