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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
On June 18 2016 12:39 Crunchums wrote: here is a game where I think hero goes for this style + Show Spoiler + it doesn't work out for him, but his opponent is flash, so yeah I still think Mutas would be good. Even just one pack to bypass the spidermines and harass Terran's expansion. You get the added benefit of forcing Goliaths and reducing the number of Siege tanks on the map. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11143 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Siege tank gets +15 attack eventually vs the +3 armor that carapace gives. Ultralisks are also just about the only unit that's capable of killing tanks rapidly. Also queens take a very long time to generate their energy for broodlings (3min 15s if I recall correctly). | ||
Ty2
United States1434 Posts
Edit: Hero is exhibiting the aforementioned style a lot more on his stream. His style is really impressive to watch and he appears to only be getting more adept at executing it. I'm not sure if he went Queens in the previous two videos shown but he's using them a lot more now. The games are going on average 35+ minutes long and seeing Hero sync his Broodlings+ his army when attacking is absolutely mesmerizing. He's mostly lost and on the upside Terran usually manages to get maxed with tons of money, but I think Hero is taking a step in the right direction. Hero's style just seems to trade late game pressure ultraling for an army that can defend well versus Terran mech by holding its ground with Lurkers+defilers. Then he just waits for his Queens to cycle having enough energy for Broodlings to slowly wear Terran down through a cost efficient war of attrition. You should watch this VOD at the 1 hour 46 minute mark where he really flouts the style off with flair vs. flash: live.afreecatv.com:8079 end result: + Show Spoiler + He loses, partially due to not upgrading cracklings in a 30 minute game, but still he makes such an impressive showing in his fluid, agile use of Queens. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
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art_of_turtle
United States1183 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + | ||
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
build order: Enter "gg" f10 + n + q | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
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alwalo
8 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
1. I've seen effort mix in hydras to take out mine fields, tanks and CCs. I've seen him add queens late game and take godlike engagements with them. I've see him do perfectly executed mutalisks switches to take out 10+ tanks and a a ton of scvs. 2. I've seen Zero be SUPER effective with his mutalisks and lings mid game to delay terran's 4th A TON. In the meantime he gets a fast 4th and pumps out a ton of ultralisks very early that become super effective with drop play. | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
On July 19 2016 13:52 art_of_turtle wrote: I figured out how to deal with mech players. + Show Spoiler + I thought you were gonna post some meme or joke. edit: nvm, looked at the "replay" and found what I was looking for. Lol'd. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Game was played around 11 오전. Going to look for the vod!! edit: Literally blew my MIND. | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
On August 13 2016 11:39 B-royal wrote: Holy shit I just saw the most beautiful game ever S2 vs Shinee. This zerg played so incredible I thought it was Jaedong the whole fucking time. Game was played around 11 오전. Going to look for the vod!! edit: Literally blew my MIND. How are you typing this then if your brain was blown? | ||
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nbaker
United States1341 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Shinee vs S2. S2 uses some very creative play. His style consisted of hydralisks, lurkers, defilers and queens. Instead of attacking Shinee's army he instead opts to continuously harm Shinee's economy instead. He efficiently uses hydralisks to clean up mine fields to open up attack paths to Shinee's expansions. Ever time S2 gets in trouble and is under fire, he holds off Shinee's army with lurkers under dark swarm until a well executed drop play or usage of queen's spawn broodlings neutralizes the threat. Sorry for the quality, not sure what happened. I tried downloading the afreeca video directly using http://d-c.kr/ but it didn't load for me. So I used OBS to record my desktop. The quality was already worse after this step, but after uploading it to youtube it's even worse. edit: apparently the quality is good, youtube now all of a sudden gives 1080p as well instead of only 360/480p max? Nice. | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
Meanwhile Terran just has to play late game like they've been playing TvP. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
Edit: Holy crap, just watched Last vs Zero from recommended FPVOD thread (12/08 game 1). Similar hydra lurk aggression from Zero, with swarm contain at natural bridge and followup attack at 4th which would have won the game right there if he hadn't left behind that defiler, impressive play overall On August 17 2016 15:49 AsianEcksDragon wrote: This strategy also falls apart if you don't keep the Vessel count low with scourge/plague/hydras. Hydra/Plague makes it easy to kill vessels though, there are going to be hydras everywhere so you don't even need to control that much | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
1 rax expo, ebay, academy, 3 rax, fac, star, science, 3rd cc inbase, 3 fac, armoury, 4th cc (at new main), 5 fac, 2nd armoury, 7 fac, 5th cc (at new nat), 9 fac (these 2 in new main), 11 fac (these 2 in main), 12 fac (this one in new main) All the old options are still used occasionally. Hydra queen style has proven viable. Effort and Hero in particular employed it a lot through 2015 etc. Muta switch is seen every now and then, particularly if zerg feels he is behind slightly. Small numbers of guardians are used occasionally to harass more than anything. Both air options are often pretty weak. I offered to write about the ultra style back in the OP in 2013, which ofcourse has always been a very popular and effective style. Ultra ling swarm with a bit of defiler support is currently very popular. Mixed in with some ultra drops and followed up with more waves of ultra ling to overwhelm a terran position potentially. Lets go into a bit more detail briefly. In the midgame use mutaling to pick off mnm squads in the mid of the map in order to hold the 3rd base, and 3 lurkers on the ramp. Go up to 4 base and 8 hats as usual in the build order in the OP. Choosing when to go up to 5, 6 and 7 base is varied. Some will stay on 4 base for a tick, some will take a quick 5th but stay on 5 for a while, some will go to 6 quickly and stay on 6. Other times if Zerg feels he cant make a dent because he is a bit behind or if he just wants to play very defensively management style, he might even go to 7 base before starting the swarm phase. Or anywhere in between! The map and spawns plays a significant part in this. Generally there is nothing wrong with going to 5 base quite quickly on FS, use lurker defiler to claim the 5th. Its perfectly fine to make 3 sunkens at these new bases as well. For the ultra style you obviously get melee and carapace upgrades in the evos. You can do small 2 lurker drops as before still. Another popular option is to instead do a slightly more dedicated drop (but still not a full on doom drop) where you drop 2 lurkers, a defiler, and some lings into the terran main. Can use 4 overlords to perform this (not all full). Darkswarm over the lurkers, plague on depots, lings kill armouries hopefully and some depots. But its still just a distraction and draws terran units back, disrupts etc. When you have the ultra upgrades you can switch to the swarm phase. The perfect outcome is to break one of the terran positions by overwhelming. Lay down a few darkswarms, then go for it. This style is effective. Its probably fair to say that its slightly less demanding from a management point of view, and that’s a huge bonus that shouldn’t be ignored. You still need to be able to recognise if you can keep pushing or if Terran is locked down and you need to switch to the next stage of securing a new base and doing more drop focused ultra play. ZvT as mentioned is changing though. The most popular strats follow fashion in a way, and whoever the most successful players are, their styles will be emulated the most. Flash is getting into his groove, and new maps are getting picked up a bit more now too. We are at the start of a new era of ZvT so its all very exciting, what with new players coming back to brood war, and even streaming their fpv on afreeca. Flash vs Zero ASL Ro16 on Overwatch, timestamped to lategame I posted the OP in 2013 over 3 years ago. ZvT has been in a slightly funny position over the last couple of years because of who the active players are has been changing a lot. Mind was dominating for a bit, Last was too. Hero stepped up and brought things back for zerg a bit with his excellent lurker and defiler control. Effort and Zero came back and helped turns things around. Then Flash came back and its all chaos again. But Flash is being challenged in TvZ still. My timeline might be wrong, that’s just a rough feeling. There was a period where every zerg was going overpool regularly. Zero and Effort were both using this. There was a period where zerg was delaying 3rd base a lot, and getting hive then making an instant nydus as soon as the 3rd base finished. Zero in particular was using this. Effort would use it but more if he realised he couldn’t hold his 3rd base, so he would cancel the 3rd and back stab hard. We are talking spring 2015 roughly for the 2 above. There was a period where Mind in particular was pushing with 2 tanks and no vessel, relying on scan, which caused some problems for zerg. There is the very popular 3 speed vult style where you skip tanks and instead use speed vults to potentially run straight past the lurkers holding the ramp into the zerg 3rd and score drone kills or draw the lurker shots away from the ramp so the mnm can advance up and kill the lurkers. Zergs are now using a simple trick that helps prevent the vults getting in though. They keep 1 lurker unburrowed sitting blocking the ramp. Additionally just keep some lings at the top of the ramp to help block the runby and dish out dps. Hero has very good lurker defiler control. Also, he was happy to go lurker ling defiler for extended amount of time compared to most zergs. He is happy to use hydra heavy late games or ultralisk late game styles. Effort is more about lurker defiler for defense, and fully explored hydra heavy lategame styles. He also would more often choose to cancel his 3rd base and do strong back stab attacks, or heavy muta harass on the terran main in the midgame more than other zergs. Zero in particular experimented with the faster hive, delayed 3rd base the most. He favoured ultra drop style more for his lategame. Killer in particular would favour the ultra ling swarm style where you macro billion lings and a move with ultras on the ground. All zergs use this style ofcourse, Zero likes it too. It is a powerful option. Some small tricks that zerg have been using since the hybrid league in 2012: Staggered sunkens at the nat. Sometimes zerg make 2 sunkens and the 3rd one is touching but infront. (Any additional sunkens are placed further out infront again, but that was already common before sc2 switch). The most extreme example of staggered sunks at the nat was this game where Effort made 6 sunkens, but in pairs, each infront of the other. EffOrt (Z) vs Last (T) Draemong Starleague Ro16 May 2015 + Show Spoiler + Sunkens at the 3rd base. Its now very common for zerg to make atleast 1 sunken at the 3rd. 2 sunks isnt uncommon, and Effort was even getting 3 sunks quite regularly at one point. Like I said though, ZvT has been in a slightly funny position over the last couple of years depending on which players were active. Effort did a phase where he would get his 3rd base and stay on 3 base for a bit longer, getting a 2nd hat at the 3rd base and massing up before taking the 4th base. Perhaps it was because he was struggling to secure a 4th base at the time or perhaps he was sort of unchallenged, so he could afford to get 3 sunkens just to be extra safe in a way. Hard to know the motives and thought process of players. But perhaps now that the bar has risen on the Terran side, it is no longer feasible to get 3 sunkens at the 3rd base, have to rely on lurker ling defiler to defend drops properly (at the highest level). So consider making 3 sunks at your 3rd base, hell if Effort does it then it cant be a bad thing for us mere mortals. Lurker morphing staggering. When you make the first 3 lurkers, don’t morph them all at once. Start morphing 1 (or 2) of them at the top of the ramp, then a few seconds later start morphing the other 2 (or 1) directly on the ramp thus blocking it. When mnm arrive, the top lurker(s) finish first and can burrow safely and they in turn protect the still morphing egg(s). The mnm have to retreat so the final lurkers can finish morphing in safety. Whereas if all lurkers finish at the same time, mnm can instant kill the lurker as it finishes morphing using the bug. If a lurker takes damage at the precise moment of morphing completing it vanishes in a puff of smoke. And the mnm are standing close enough to snipe the remaining 2 if done perfectly. Those are all small tricks that have helped zerg survive to the lategame more consistently. Once you are in the lategame, its standard to make 2 additional hats at the 3rd base (the new main). This is standard whether going hydra late game or ultra ling late game. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
In my own games, I've been getting some success by doing the following things in no particular order: - Hydralisks are absolutely fantastic at taking 5th and 6th base by cleaning up mines and preventing vultures from just sniping 3 lurkers, and a vessel from sniping your defiler etc. - Hydralisks are fantastic at cleaning up mine fields. Next you use lurkers and defilers to hold a zone as close to the terran as you can. This way they can't as easily place mines right outside of your bases. - Connect your 5th and 6th bases with nydus networks to your production hubs. You want to have defilers and lurkers to be able to defend and delay tanks from killing these outlying bases in an instant. Too many times I just lose a base because a defiler gets sniped before I can react or my 3 key lurkers get irradiated and I can't get any new lurkers and defilers there on time. - Guardians are not a bad thing. If terran's especially greedy with taking his 3rd/4th/5th, doesn't have any goliaths, only 1-2 vessels and a single starport. There's a very nice timing here for a guardian attack. Some guardians can also be great to harrass natural bases over the cliffs. Just make sure you actually defend them by having some scourge there and possibly some mutas. - If terran has a complete wall of turrets at his new main, some guardians can also be used to clear these up so you can drop again. - Queens are absolutely fantastic. They're hard to use, but better get practicing now since an era of terran domination is lurking all above us. - Your main army in the ultra late game should still just be ultralisk zerglings in my opinion. You just want to complement it with hydralisks to clean up minefields, to take out floating barracks, and to damage floating CCs so you can infest them with your queens. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
http://bwreplays.com/x6iij also i was inspired by Julia for this,while playing vs him TvZ doing mech,i noticed that guards are no so bad with upgrades and hitting a good timing for this. | ||
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