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I've tried this strategy a few times so far and it has been surprisingly effective so far (although I'm only D+ so take that for what it's worth).
Here's an overview of the build I've been using:
Use a 3 hatch opening but instead of getting a den or a spire, build a queens nest right away and tech to hive. I also usually build an evo chamber while teching to lair and research +1 carapace. While teching to Hive, I research ensnare and create about 3 queens. For defense, I just rely on sunkens and speedlings. Once the ultra cavern is done, I usually have enough to make 4 ultras. At around the 9:30 minute mark (basically, before the Terran midgame push), I attack the Terran with 3 queens + 4 ultras + 3 control groups of lings. I ensnare the MnM ball first, send the ultras first and then the lings.
During the attack, I expand and eventually get a spire. In the cases where the attack didn't just kill the opponent outright, it crippled the opponent so severely that it was pretty much impossible to make a comeback (it usually involved with him having to lift his natural CC for a prolonged period).
Of course, me and all my opponents were at the D/D+ level, and in all cases, my opponents played completely standard and didn't do anything to adapt to my build (well aside from not making turrets to defend against mutas). That's why I'm curious to hear the opinions of more skilled players.
How would a skilled Terran player react to this build? Does this strategy have any merit at all at higher levels? Why or why not?
BTW, I know 2 base ultra builds already exist, but I couldn't find anything in Liquipedia so I don't really have anything to compare with. Also, if there have been any pro games with a similar strategy, please post them.
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Canada2480 Posts
Crazy zerg looks MUCH stronger then this
a bit too gas expensive to sustain for a while off 2 base if you ask me...of course at D+ people are bad so they won't react properly.
if your main defense is sunkens you are very vulnerable to drops too.(example Jaedong vs Flash... NATE MSL set 2)
imo I think crazy zerg is much stronger then this but fun idea nevertheless
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On July 16 2010 12:24 swanized wrote:
Crazy zerg looks MUCH stronger then this
a bit too gas expensive to sustain for a while off 2 base if you ask me...of course at D+ people are bad so they won't react properly.
if your main defense is sunkens you are very vulnerable to drops too.(example Jaedong vs Flash... NATE MSL set 2)
imo I think crazy zerg is much stronger then this but fun idea nevertheless
Hm, if the opponent is going for a normal 1rax FE build, he usually doesn't get dropships until much later. Besides, I have about 1-2 groups of lings so drops really aren't that difficult to deal with. I don't think the JD vs Flash game applies here because the drops occurred very late in the game.
Also, I think crazy zerg is a completely different thing. Crazy zerg is more of a standard macro build, whereas this build is more rush-oriented as it relies on a specific timing attack which (in my experience) ended up doing huge damage to the Terran. The rush allows me to expand and eventually win through superior economy.
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Looks interesting. Obviously bad against Vultures and/or Tanks, and it's a little concerning that you have no anti-air for the first 10 minutes of the game. I'm not convinced you want ensnare (instead of more ultras), or that ultralisks are a better choice than defilers in this circumstance.
Conventional ZvT builds have a lurker or mutalisk midgame and go for a third base, so it's hard for me to say what Terran can or should do with that extra-long period of no pressure. I imagine the best response would either be to mass up and trap you in your base + force lots of sunkens, or to take a quick third and go up to a bajillion barracks.
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your build is not going to work past the level that you are playing at now, because it is very very inefficient.
You say you go for a regular 3hatch build, and then get hive quickly instead of muta or lurker. Well, during this time, a standard zerg opening wold allow you to expand to a 3rd base behind your muta or lurker tech, allowing for more gas, which is crucial for any zvt build. Your build doesnt allow this, so you are already at a disadvantage.
Your push comes out at 9:30, which is not before the terran midgame push, its after one of the more popular ones, strangely called "the 9 minute push". If your opponent does this, you allow him to set up tanks outside your base and assume a concave position outside your natural which will immediately rape any attack you have coming out that doesnt involve swarm.
If want to go fast ultra, i suggest you alter your build. There are two main alternatives that you can go for.
One is a 2base ultralisk, but in order to get to hive in a timely manner you go 2hatch lair instead of 3hatch, therefore getting lair and subsequently hive much faster, which allows you to take map control faster and get more expansions. You add on hatcheries as you tech up, and i think you end up with 4hatches when youre ready to make ultralisks. Its pretty much want you wanted to do with the build here, except its much more efficient, but doesnt involve queens.
The other one is a 3hatch muta build, but instead of teching to lurkers you go straight to hive, and expand at a normal timing. You can probably squeeze in a couple queens with this build if you wanted and it would work well.
I also want to mention that getting fast carapace and melee upgrades are really important for fast ultralisk builds, because you want to have your ultralisks as impenetrable walls with as much armor as possible compared to your opponents marine attack damage when they pop out.
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You say you go for a regular 3hatch build, and then get hive quickly instead of muta or lurker. Well, during this time, a standard zerg opening wold allow you to expand to a 3rd base behind your muta or lurker tech, allowing for more gas, which is crucial for any zvt build. Your build doesnt allow this, so you are already at a disadvantage.
In all cases, my game plan revolved around doing a lot of damage with my first attack, then get a 3rd gas and a 4th gas soon after that. The attack did enough damage such that securing a 3rd and 4th base wasn't too difficult.
Your push comes out at 9:30, which is not before the terran midgame push, its after one of the more popular ones, strangely called "the 9 minute push". If your opponent does this, you allow him to set up tanks outside your base and assume a concave position outside your natural which will immediately rape any attack you have coming out that doesnt involve swarm.
I should point out that the aforementioned timings are relative to my skill level. At a D+ level, when I go for a standard 3 hatch muta strategy, the Terran midgame push comes out at around 11 minutes even without any particularly effective muta harass. So, the timings should probably be scaled accordingly based on the skill level.
I've never encountered a case where the Terran tried to contain me though. When I attack, they're usually sitting at their base with 2-3 tanks + the MnM ball.
One is a 2base ultralisk, but in order to get to hive in a timely manner you go 2hatch lair instead of 3hatch, therefore getting lair and subsequently hive much faster, which allows you to take map control faster and get more expansions. You add on hatcheries as you tech up, and i think you end up with 4hatches when youre ready to make ultralisks. Its pretty much want you wanted to do with the build here, except its much more efficient, but doesnt involve queens.
What's the point of getting the 3rd and 4th hatch when I'm ready to make ultras? The reason I decided to go for 3 hatch is so I can drone whore like crazy while teching, and this usually leaves me with a very solid economy (atleast as far as minerals goes) allowing me to expand a bunch later in the game. But what do I gain from making a 3rd and 4th hatch that late? It's not like I'm going to be able to support constant production from them if I'm only on 2 geysers.
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In all cases, my game plan revolved around doing a lot of damage with my first attack, then get a 3rd gas and a 4th gas soon after that. The attack did enough damage such that securing a 3rd and 4th base wasn't too difficult.
so if your attack doesnt do damage, youll be very behind. And it wont vs higher level terrans, because it is both slow and weak compared to other standard build timings.
I should point out that the aforementioned timings are relative to my skill level. At a D+ level, when I go for a standard 3 hatch muta strategy, the Terran midgame push comes out at around 11 minutes even without any particularly effective muta harass. So, the timings should probably be scaled accordingly based on the skill level.
i realize that this works vs bad players, but pretty much anything can work vs bad players if you execute it better than they do. Terran is very hard to execute at low levels due to handspeed needed to play efficiently. You shouldnt continue using inefficient builds just because your opponent does too, dont you want to improve? Im responding to this
How would a skilled Terran player react to this build? Does this strategy have any merit at all at higher levels? Why or why not? , not talking about how it plays out at your current skill level. I highly suggest you use a more efficient build order if you want to be able to continue using it vs better players.
I've never encountered a case where the Terran tried to contain me though. When I attack, they're usually sitting at their base with 2-3 tanks + the MnM ball.
Hell have tanks outside your natural, probably firing at your sunkens. You are contained inside your base because you dont have ultralisks yet and so are unable to mount an effective bust out. That is what i meant by contain.
What's the point of getting the 3rd and 4th hatch when I'm ready to make ultras? The reason I decided to go for 3 hatch is so I can drone whore like crazy while teching, and this usually leaves me with a very solid economy (atleast as far as minerals goes) allowing me to expand a bunch later in the game. But what I gain from making a 3rd and 4th hatch that late? It's not like I'm going to be able to support constant production from them if I'm only on 2 geysers.
I said you should have 4 hatcheries by that time, not get them. That should be the amount of hatcheries your build allows you to make by the time ultralisks come. They are necessary for producing shit out of them, and not letting your money pile up uselessly. This will definitely give you a strong 2base economy by the time you are ready to move out, and will allow you to expand a bunch later in the game. (or preferably, right when you move out.) It is not late at all if you spend your money correctly. You can support constant production of lings/ultralisks with them, obviously you wont be able to make pure ultralisks with 2base. These hatcheries will allow your build to flow smoothly and give you a big enough army to be able to take map control.
You didnt mention building any more hatcheries past 3 in your OP, so im going to assume that you dont make anymore until expanding to a 3rd and 4th. If you follow the build like you said in the OP, youll have a pretty large mineral buildup by the time you attack, which could be used on more hatcheries and subsequently lings, allowing your attack to do more damage or gain map control longer. By not spending money, you put yourself behind in macro. Your build gives you this huge excess of money, because it is inefficient. Your ultralisk timing is slow, your opponent has map control for way too much time, and you are unable to expand to a 3rd base until ultralisks come, which by that time you have tons of unspent money. Your opponent (if hes a decent player, again im talking about how your build will fare higher up) will most likely have a massive army and possibly even a 3rd base, and defeat your slow ultralisk attack without any problems, thereby denying you any expansions past your natural and wining the game.
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Well, I had played a couple of games where the zerg do this, and I just camp for a while in their front may be with the 1 or to first tanks, just to make the angry and add more sunks, then while I'm doing this, I just add like 4 rax more from my usual 3 and instead of getting starport fast I just get 2 fact and mass tanks, so when he clear the front, those units just make the ultras low in hp and I just come with my 2 push and crush him with mass tanks, aroud 8 plus the 3 or 4 controls of rines, this is just from 2 basse trran. I'm C- if it matters. But your build it actually work on d levels. Dunno if mine work, but for me it does.
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I think that this kind of build could be easy to counter if your opponent scouts well. Since he won't see a den or spire, that will mean to him that all he has to deal with early on are lings and sunken colonies. This means that the terran will probably adapt by modifying his build so that he gets a more aggressive push out before the 9:30 mark, as he won't need to wait for science vessels to deal with a potential lurker threat.
Also, I think that this build will die pretty easily should your opponent use early drop ships, as he will bypass your sunken defense completely, and if he micros well he can kill off most of your lings.
However, this build seems like it would be pretty effective against most of the D+ or lower players, partly because of the scouting, and partly because of the inability to adapt.
As for progames where this was used:
I think Savior vs Flash in 2009-10 proleague on fighting spirit featured some 2base ultra play (although i don't think savior used queens). The only thing I remember from this game is Flash constantly denying savior's 3rd base, and savior eventually losing to the economic disadvantage.
+ Show Spoiler [vod] +
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i realize that this works vs bad players, but pretty much anything can work vs bad players if you execute it better than they do. Terran is very hard to execute at low levels due to handspeed needed to play efficiently. You shouldnt continue using inefficient builds just because your opponent does too, dont you want to improve? Im responding to this
Heh, what I meant was that a better player might be able to execute that same build faster than me. But I suppose the difference wouldn't be that big.
Hell have tanks outside your natural, probably firing at your sunkens. You are contained inside your base because you dont have ultralisks yet and so are unable to mount an effective bust out. That is what i meant by contain.
I understand. I just meant that the people I've played never tried this, but I can see how this strategy might have difficulty dealing with that.
You didnt mention building any more hatcheries past 3 in your OP, so im going to assume that you dont make anymore until expanding to a 3rd and 4th. If you follow the build like you said in the OP, youll have a pretty large mineral buildup by the time you attack, which could be used on more hatcheries and subsequently lings, allowing your attack to do more damage or gain map control longer. By not spending money, you put yourself behind in macro. Your build gives you this huge excess of money, because it is inefficient. Your ultralisk timing is slow, your opponent has map control for way too much time, and you are unable to expand to a 3rd base until ultralisks come, which by that time you have tons of unspent money. Your opponent (if hes a decent player, again im talking about how your build will fare higher up) will most likely have a massive army and possibly even a 3rd base, and defeat your slow ultralisk attack without any problems, thereby denying you any expansions past your natural and wining the game.
Yeah, I do end up having excess minerals. I figured I can use them to double expo later on, but I suppose the delayed rush makes a huge difference against better players. I'll try the 2 hatch version and see how it works. Thanks for the advice.
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np man, I also think this
This means that the terran will probably adapt by modifying his build so that he gets a more aggressive push out before the 9:30 mark, as he won't need to wait for science vessels to deal with a potential lurker threat.
is something to think about that youll probably experience should you play this to higher ranks. If you manage to modify your build like i mentioned, you should roll through d+ without any problems and probably even c- too, judging by how well your original build did.
edit: actually i forgot about mech, this type of thing wont work well against mech play, so if you see your opponent doing that kind of shit its probably a good idea to abandon the fast ultralisk play.
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I can see how this bo of yours appeals to you. But i think your just going about doing it the wrong way. You just have too much holes in it. Drops will mess you up if there smart and bring a couple firebats for your lings and why wouldnt they elevator them all in? a bunker contain would beat it. Early tanks would beat it as well. What some people here are trying to say is that there are better ways and safer ways to get ultras out fast.
You could try a 2h lurk bo that contains into 3h ultra where you would have itleast 3 gas to support your ultras and you could skip on the queens.
You could do 2h lurk into 2h ultra even.
The strongest and safest bo however is crazyzerg, and even if you dont like to muta harass just make your 11 muta and group them with 2 or 3 groups of speedlings and get a good attack on their first push because most terrans at D+ level over compinsate on terrets anyways.
I see the appeal of ultras but also know that defilers are much safter, especially when you gonna try and take back map control with that bo your talking about.
If you decide not to take anyones advice itleast reconize the fact that when you engage the T army with your ultras they should have itleast 2 caraprace and the armor upgrade. Also keep in mind that if your ultras have +3 attack before the rines have +2 armor that they will 2 shot them and that makes a big difference as well.
Also, if your gonna invest that much into queeens you might as well put another 200/200 and get spawn broodlings to get any early tanks if they do come but i would highly recommend playing your strat out a different way because you will have better results in the long run.
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What if terran makes a wraith or a valk and starts raping overlords?
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On July 16 2010 13:08 DarkMatter_ wrote:
I should point out that the aforementioned timings are relative to my skill level. At a D+ level,
It has been stated often enough, that ANY well executed build will work on your level, especially if it is unusual.
No need to discuss any further. If you are interested of course if this build is viable on higher levels, listen to the people here. :-)
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I've been trying something similar, except with lurkers. Basically i get 2nd gas as i start lair, ling speed, lurk and nest after lair, ensnare, 2 queens, 6 lurks, sb, ovi speed. My goal is to contain with a minimal amount of lurks backed up by ensnare, and later sb for tanks (ovi speed helps this a lot). I then upgrade hive as i send my drone to my third and nydus drones (hive upgrade = hatchery build time) for a faster econ. I haven't been able to get my timings right yet tho. Need some more prac time 
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I don't see how this is possible. The timing at which you skip a den and spire would cause terran to have suspicion on what you are doing and would probably attack earlier without the worry of harass.
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the 10minute timing push, 36marines, 6 medics, 3 tanks, and 1 vessle, comes at 10minutes with 1-1 upgrades. it would obliterate this, ESPECIALLY if you let it not make turrets.
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On July 16 2010 12:24 swanized wrote:
Crazy zerg looks MUCH stronger then this
a bit too gas expensive to sustain for a while off 2 base if you ask me...of course at D+ people are bad so they won't react properly.
if your main defense is sunkens you are very vulnerable to drops too.(example Jaedong vs Flash... NATE MSL set 2)
imo I think crazy zerg is much stronger then this but fun idea nevertheless
I love this names for the builds.
I think Ultra Zerg sounds nicer ^^
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My terran is bad, my zerg is probably ~1400, BUT
Don't do this build, even I can see how risky it is.
Once he sees your queens and lings and no muta or lurk, he will realize you do not have adequate forces (tech) do fend off his push, much less to harass him and stall his macro/exp, and that there is a huge window of opportunity where sunken break and drop is possible, and with high chance will rape your lings with microed firebats. Sunkens + lings vs m&m&f is always risky.
Few tanks shooting your sunkens surrounded by m&m&f also has the potential to rape your defense line, not sure about the ensnare timings though, it might save you. Test it with a friend.
Your queens can be irradiated very easily (timing?), even sniped by m&m or wraiths, destroying a sizeable amount of investment and your already limited chances of getting his m&m troops ensnared.
Ultras are risky even off 3 gas. Off 2 gas it is outright suicide. Focus-fire on ultralisks hurts you very very very very badly. +1 carapace is of course needed to any ultra builds.
No spire means no mutalisk harass, no scouting, no good defense against drops. No spire AND no den means insta-death to 2port wraith. Or even vessel erasers!
No muta or lurker = WHAT MAP CONTROL. Who needs map control anyway as zerg?!
No good drop defense with 2 bases means you can potentially lose much more economy than with more bases. It's gg anyway though if you lose anything at all.
Mech requires a completely different unit mix and more greediness. I'm pretty sure it is a hard counter to this build.
Terran can pull off so many tricks to destroy this cheese, it's not even funny. Granted, as with all cheese and fancy builds, it might work if you catch him offguard. Or as in your test cases, they do not react at all. Don't rely on it much though.
I would use lurker/hydra into plague/hydra instead if I wanna go fancy against terran.
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Don't listen to all these people telling you not to try this build. Starcraft is a game and your goal is to have fun. You seem to be enjoying yourself with this build, so work on optimizing it to find where good terrans poke holes in your play.
Eventually you're going to find that it won't stand a chance against terrans at a certain level. It's not considered a "standard" build because because there are obvious economic weaknesses that foreigners up to korean pros will exploit.
That doesn't mean the strategy isn't fun to pull out every once and a while. Players get so caught up in practicing the standards that their reaction to anything nonstandard dulls (or they never knew what to do in the first place). I think this would be funny to play against D+/C- koreans since they're such mechanically-focused players that I doubt many of them would have a decent reaction in a best of 1.
As with all cute strategies, I doubt this would work if you tried it again on the same player. Still, as long as you're having fun, mixing in some homemade nonstandard play could be a great strategical plan, especially if you're facing the same opponent multiple times. Don't count on beating any professionals (or anyone C or higher for that matter), but please, do enjoy yourself.
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EPT
