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Modern TvZ Build: Academy or Second Barracks First - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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RosaParksStoleMySeat
Profile Joined December 2009
Japan926 Posts
January 03 2010 00:04 GMT
#21
On January 03 2010 08:39 StylishVODs wrote:
+1 attack is almost always better.
If you're going to be really offensive, +1 armor can be better vs fast lurkers. If not, +1 attack is much better since you will be using bunkers to neutralize lurkers anyway.
And +1 is obviously better vs mutalisks.


Question about fast lurkers (as in before mutas) anyway ...

Why do people do it? I mean, I love using my first scan to see a hydralisk den because I already know the game is over. I just build another bunker/turret at my front, check my base's proximity for overlords preparing to elevator, and then get a dropship and go in for all of his tech/main drones ASAP. There's almost nothing he can do without scourge/mutas to fend off my initial attack, and from then on it's so easy to deny a third with some half-hearted drops.

After that I usually transition into quick BC's. Style comes first.
celeste
Profile Joined January 2010
England45 Posts
January 03 2010 00:06 GMT
#22
In the first replay you seem pretty weak vs a Zerg who decides to go straight for your main/natural - you have 1 turret by your Barracks and none at your main and around 10 rines so if you added turrets you'd have 4 or so rines.. what would you do then?
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-03 00:36:58
January 03 2010 00:22 GMT
#23
well he could always try to break my bunker + 6marines with 9muta and some lings, but he wouldnt damage me that much and he'll lose an expansion and all his units.

I have 3 turrets defending my main, 6rine 1medic and 3 rines making + 4in the bunker.
If he decides to attack my main, 9 muta vs 1turret 6stim rine with range and ill be getting 3 more soon + i can use the marines from my bunker.

If he decides to attack my natural, I have a pretty small chokepoint and a bunker close for scvs to repair and 2 turrets + units on the ramp. He would get slaughtered.

I've never lost or seen flash lose with this build during the mutalisk timing from a 3hatch build.

RosaParksStolemyseat

people usually go for lurks first if they want to secure their third and go for fast defiler or if they want to break you (2hatch lurk)

Usually it involves quite alot of lings for any kind of drop.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Caphe
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Vietnam10817 Posts
January 04 2010 04:08 GMT
#24
Learnt alot in this thread, ty stylish
My TvZ is terrible,I have hard time to defense against heavy muta harrass.
And, when do you need to get the starport up, right afer a fac or delay a little bit?.
In your reps you make it looks so ez T_T
Terran
coltrane
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Chile988 Posts
January 04 2010 05:46 GMT
#25
nice thread. Thanks for the reps Stylish, waiting for your next vod
Jävla skit
knightpraetor
Profile Joined October 2008
United States180 Posts
January 05 2010 06:51 GMT
#26
i'm confused as to what to do about zergs that are cliffing your turrets before range comes out. I was actually considering going faster acad before 2nd rax so that range will finish sooner. Basically zergs 2hatch muta against me but i don't know what to do about the cliffs. Sure I can get sight on them with scan, but the bigger issue is there is no room to micro. As i understand it, rines are supposed to run past the mutas then focus fire so they can finish one off before they escape. however, with cliffs that becomes impossible. I merely get a few shots each time they come by. I wish i had room on every map for bunkers near cliffs, but that is not alwaysthe case. Anyways, one of my two questions is:

before and after marine range, is it worth moving rines + medics behind the mineral line and just standing there for extra fire power to support your turrets. if not, is the est thing to do o such maps to place 3-5 turrets at the nat as you get money and neglect turrets elsewhere so that you can have room to micro at the spot they choose to attack?
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
January 05 2010 11:34 GMT
#27
knightpraetor, if he 2hatch mutas you, there's no shame in putting up a few extra turrets, he already has a considerably worse economy, so you cant expect to go by on the same amount of turrets, otherwise there would be no reason to 2hatch muta.
JMave
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Singapore1803 Posts
January 05 2010 14:49 GMT
#28
Just going out of topic; this is the real reason why I am deciding to switch to 2 rax FE because its so much safer and has more comfortable responses to the different variants the zerg can throw at you. Like if zerg decides to go 9 pool, you will be at a much safer position with 2 rax and have more marines and you will still be ahead despite the slower CC.
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
ZeKk
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sweden320 Posts
January 07 2010 21:12 GMT
#29
On January 03 2010 08:10 StylishVODs wrote:
Ok so I'm going to post this in my VOD thread, but I can't make VODs yet so I'm posting replays.

This is the way flash has been playing lately. Replay
This includes a second scvscout since its on a 4player map. If you scout slightly earlier than 12/18 you will be able to scout 2 locations before your second marine is finnished, and you can cancel it to make a CC faster. Use the second scv scout to return to base and make suply before second rax at 24.

refinary after second barracks, academy after refinary, rax after academy, suply after that and then ebay abit after academy is finnished.

This will allow you to get a unitcombo of 3medics 10rine and 1bat or 2medics 10rine 2bats.
You use this force to move out while scouting with a scv and making a bunker for any kind of stab.

If you want to play it safe, make turrets before factory, but cross pos you can make factory right before turrets on 3 rax. Specially if you notice that the zerg is trying to save his third with his muta rather than attacking you. If he does this, you can reinforce your troop with the units at home. This way the only way for him to save his third is to continue with muta/ling and its going to be hard for him even so.

If you scout a 2hatch, you can do like this: Replay
This will force zerg on the defensive, or he can counter and die

This build includes scv cutting after 2 scvs from expansion and then add another 2 rax while academy is almost complete, making a total of 4 barracks.
Any 2hatch zerg making mutalisks will have a hard time defending when up against 4 rax m&m.

Both these two styles of play neutralize the mutalisks from doing any damage on your scvs and you can keep your turretcount very low.
You could do like morrow aswell, but its another style specially vs 2hatch which is based on defending without much damage.
I like the agressive style more.

If he does the zerobuild, which is 12pool/gas and ultrafast spire. Make the CC on highground.
Do the same 9suply 11 rax 15suply 18cc (2rine before cc) 22 suply 24 rax 25 gas 26 aca 27/28 ebay.
This is almost the same as the first build but you dont move out directly, stay on 2 rax while making turrets in time. After a while, add a third and when you have stim if you've defended well so far you can start moving out.

Watch flash vs Calm game 1 for more infromation, but flash makes a slightly later Ebay which i think was almost a few seconds too late but worked out in the end.



What's the zero build exacly? Are you talking about that the z keep on one hatchery thus the quick spire? Cuz 2 hatching z's normally goes 12 gas/pool or am I wrong?
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
January 07 2010 21:16 GMT
#30
On January 08 2010 06:12 ZeKk wrote:
What's the zero build exacly?


On January 03 2010 08:10 StylishVODs wrote:
If he does the zerobuild, which is 12pool/gas and ultrafast spire.

Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4838 Posts
January 07 2010 22:05 GMT
#31
On January 08 2010 06:12 ZeKk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2010 08:10 StylishVODs wrote:
Ok so I'm going to post this in my VOD thread, but I can't make VODs yet so I'm posting replays.

This is the way flash has been playing lately. Replay
This includes a second scvscout since its on a 4player map. If you scout slightly earlier than 12/18 you will be able to scout 2 locations before your second marine is finnished, and you can cancel it to make a CC faster. Use the second scv scout to return to base and make suply before second rax at 24.

refinary after second barracks, academy after refinary, rax after academy, suply after that and then ebay abit after academy is finnished.

This will allow you to get a unitcombo of 3medics 10rine and 1bat or 2medics 10rine 2bats.
You use this force to move out while scouting with a scv and making a bunker for any kind of stab.

If you want to play it safe, make turrets before factory, but cross pos you can make factory right before turrets on 3 rax. Specially if you notice that the zerg is trying to save his third with his muta rather than attacking you. If he does this, you can reinforce your troop with the units at home. This way the only way for him to save his third is to continue with muta/ling and its going to be hard for him even so.

If you scout a 2hatch, you can do like this: Replay
This will force zerg on the defensive, or he can counter and die

This build includes scv cutting after 2 scvs from expansion and then add another 2 rax while academy is almost complete, making a total of 4 barracks.
Any 2hatch zerg making mutalisks will have a hard time defending when up against 4 rax m&m.

Both these two styles of play neutralize the mutalisks from doing any damage on your scvs and you can keep your turretcount very low.
You could do like morrow aswell, but its another style specially vs 2hatch which is based on defending without much damage.
I like the agressive style more.

If he does the zerobuild, which is 12pool/gas and ultrafast spire. Make the CC on highground.
Do the same 9suply 11 rax 15suply 18cc (2rine before cc) 22 suply 24 rax 25 gas 26 aca 27/28 ebay.
This is almost the same as the first build but you dont move out directly, stay on 2 rax while making turrets in time. After a while, add a third and when you have stim if you've defended well so far you can start moving out.

Watch flash vs Calm game 1 for more infromation, but flash makes a slightly later Ebay which i think was almost a few seconds too late but worked out in the end.



What's the zero build exacly? Are you talking about that the z keep on one hatchery thus the quick spire? Cuz 2 hatching z's normally goes 12 gas/pool or am I wrong?

Standard 2hatch muta is 12hatch, and then either gas/pool or pool/gas. You get more larva and spending money that way, although your mutas are a little later and you're more vulnerable to bunker rushes.
My strategy is to fork people.
vGDaverave
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Scotland110 Posts
January 07 2010 22:17 GMT
#32
i think it depends on what the zerg is doing if you want the academy or second barracks first if you want extra range or stim fast to combat muta harass or something like that i guess thats what the faster academy does
ZeKk
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sweden320 Posts
January 07 2010 22:27 GMT
#33
tnx Severedevil, nice to see some1 answer my question properly.
philoernic
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada18 Posts
January 07 2010 23:46 GMT
#34
Check out the "Art of TvZ" article.
It outlines contemporary tvz build order and gameflow...amazing stuff : D
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