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I'm just getting back into SC and I'm working on my TvZ.
My current build is a little bit old, but I think it's still pretty standard. I go 1 rax FE into 2 rax and then academy, pushing up to 12 or so marines before I get two medics.
However, I've noticed lately that some players are opting to go for an academy before second barracks build. There seems to be a good timing push with this, including one medic, seven or so marines, and one firebat. Does anyone have the BO for this, and is it standard, or do people still play the two rax build? How does this build differ from the one I mentioned? I'll give details about my build below:
9 depot
11 barracks
14 depot
17 CC
21 depot
24 refinery
25-26 or so second barracks
32 academy (upon completion build two comsats, two medics, get stim, and ebay should finish around the same time so get +1 weapons)
ebay after second barracks
factory after ebay
starport after factory
science facility after starport
second ebay after science facility
+1 armor and +2 weapons after ebay
.
.
.
And so on.
I was thinking something like 24 refinery and then 26-27 academy to get stim ASAP and do a timing attack. Is this what all the cool kids are doing nowadays?
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Changing your build to have a 24 refinery and 26-27 academy is pretty much the standard standard standard 1 rax FE. Even on liquipedia it's almost the same, except for your earlier CC.
But yes, if you're a cool kid and you want to do a 1 rax FE, then you'd make your changes + the timing attack. Problem is most cool-kid-zergs go 2 hatch muta, so many players squeeze in an earlier second barracks to deal with it (Flash) or just go 2 rax FE.
Note that you don't have to "attack", just force him to make sunken colonies, but this should go without saying.
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Cheers for the information.
Yeah, I was kind of looking for a way to just make him sunken up because I (being a Zerg player for most of my SC career) realize how much it pisses us off. Usually by the time I'm ready to push out with my ready marines, his mutalisks are hatching and I need to stay in or bust out something funky like Flash does.
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Look in the recommended threads I think theres a detailed build order for the 3tank/vessel attack.
If you want flash's tvz bo you can watch first game of him vs jeadong cause there is this eco/cap matrix wich allows you to get the timing of stuff.
The build in liquipedia is a shity 1 rax CC variant imo and I dont know why its still there cause modern 1 rax > cc builds are way more streamlined.
If you go a global layout for your tech structures like below you should have the most standard 1 rax > cc, 3 tank/vessel attack.
rax > cc > rax > gas > aca >ebay > rax > +1 > fac > range > turrets/port > sci bay/2 ebay.
The exact numbers can be found in this great thread in the recommended section so I wont do that here.
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If i were you i'd check out stylish vods + FlaSh's game 4 vs. calm. he does his standard 9 min push and executes in perfectly. Stylish has a build order vod of the same push, which is pretty much become the standard TvZ MnM bo.
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On January 03 2010 02:39 FridgeToss wrote:
Changing your build to have a 24 refinery and 26-27 academy is pretty much the standard standard standard 1 rax FE. Even on liquipedia it's almost the same, except for your earlier CC.
But yes, if you're a cool kid and you want to do a 1 rax FE, then you'd make your changes + the timing attack. Problem is most cool-kid-zergs go 2 hatch muta, so many players squeeze in an earlier second barracks to deal with it (Flash) or just go 2 rax FE.
Note that you don't have to "attack", just force him to make sunken colonies, but this should go without saying.
Stylish's is 23 refinery, and 32 Academy if i'm not mistaken.
But anyway, relative timings are much better.
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I play 17 cc 20 rax 22 gas 24 acad.
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barracks. for sure the extra marines and extra medic and firebat really help. lings are completley hopeless against that push. the build i do is, 15 cc 16 supply next rax with 150 minerals then make marines out of first rax 21 gas 22 adcam
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=27584 heres the build
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Try out turn's build, straight ebay off of one barracks, A+ build.
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i usually go 1 rax cc then second rax gas then academy
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I think Stylish mentions somewhere that he adapted the build from Flash's play. It doesn't go for much of a sunken break threat (since it lacks firebats and would die to mass lings) but is very safe against 2h (adjust with more barracks, later fac) or 3h mutalisks - your academy tech (scans, stim, range) will be complete in a timely manner.
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Ugh 1 rax FE has so many variations it's really confusing... I've been following the Han Bang 3 tank 1 vessel build for quite some time... (Which I thought was the most standard)
it's 20 (2nd rax)
26 acad.
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What you're describing is pretty much the 9min push build, which isn't an agressive opening.
With this build you shouldn't include a timing attack usually.
When I'm playing today, I switch between 3 builds vs standard 3hatch zerg opening.
One is the 9min push.
One is A yu mi.
And the third is Flash's recently used build which includes second barracks on 22-24 based on the lingcount of your oponent. Hopefully I can make a VOD of this very up to date build soon, I just got to figure out how to use the programs again coz it was a long time since I did it.
The 1 suply CC is only used if you find him on the first try and he doesn't dronescout.
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+1 armour first > +1 weapons in TvZ
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You can go 17 cc 21 rax 23 gas 25 academy and get 1 bat 1 medic and try and sunken break vs 3 hatch. It cuts 1 scv, but forces zerg to make 3 sunken colonies or 2 sunks + lings to defend, and they have to make them far earlier than normal.
The modern trend vs 3 hatch is to get ebay and academy before 2nd rax vs 3 hatch. This gives you +1 when the mutas arrive in your main and allows you to take map control very easily and try and hunt their third, giving you a transition into SK terran or a timing push. A variant of the same build sends out a group of mnm before the muta arrive to try and kill zergs 3rd, which is what Flash has been abusing zergs with recently.
Basic BO I use is:
refinery at whatever timing your CC timing allows
@ 100% gas get Ebay
@ 100% Ebay get +1 and Academy
get the 2 rax when you have the money (it is 37/44 before 5th depot if you've gone 17CC)
Factory ASAP after range.
Turrets timed to finish with +1.
I've not used this build too long so it still probably needs a little tweaking, but the modifications should be fairly intuitive, and even in this form it seems ridiculously strong.
Always go 2 rax vs 2 hatch play though --> either
- 3 rax before academy sunken break
- academy, ebay, 3rd rax, turrets, factory, timing push
- acedemy, ebay, 3rd + 4th rax, some turrets and moving out onto the map.
I get the feeling I'm not making much sense, but hopefully this helps.
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vs 2hatch go rax+aca+2rax+ebay (u will have range and turret when muta come)
vs 3hatch go 2rax+aca+rax+ebay (flash vs jaedong @fighting spirit which totally owned him)
im not gonna go into exact bo like u guys but this is how i play anyway, it works great and this is how most progamer play too lately
another thing u can do vs 3hatch when u scout it quickly is to
rax+ebay+aca+2rax (+1 and range when muta come, flsh vs jaedong @rush3)
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On January 03 2010 06:45 StylishVODs wrote:
What you're describing is pretty much the 9min push build, which isn't an agressive opening.
With this build you shouldn't include a timing attack usually.
When I'm playing today, I switch between 3 builds vs standard 3hatch zerg opening.
One is the 9min push.
One is A yu mi.
And the third is Flash's recently used build which includes second barracks on 22-24 based on the lingcount of your oponent. Hopefully I can make a VOD of this very up to date build soon, I just got to figure out how to use the programs again coz it was a long time since I did it.
The 1 suply CC is only used if you find him on the first try and he doesn't dronescout.
Thanks. I've been watching your VODs for a long time and I recommend them to all my beginner friends.
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Ok so I'm going to post this in my VOD thread, but I can't make VODs yet so I'm posting replays.
This is the way flash has been playing lately. Replay
This includes a second scvscout since its on a 4player map. If you scout slightly earlier than 12/18 you will be able to scout 2 locations before your second marine is finnished, and you can cancel it to make a CC faster. Use the second scv scout to return to base and make suply before second rax at 24.
refinary after second barracks, academy after refinary, rax after academy, suply after that and then ebay abit after academy is finnished.
This will allow you to get a unitcombo of 3medics 10rine and 1bat or 2medics 10rine 2bats.
You use this force to move out while scouting with a scv and making a bunker for any kind of stab.
If you want to play it safe, make turrets before factory, but cross pos you can make factory right before turrets on 3 rax. Specially if you notice that the zerg is trying to save his third with his muta rather than attacking you. If he does this, you can reinforce your troop with the units at home. This way the only way for him to save his third is to continue with muta/ling and its going to be hard for him even so.
If you scout a 2hatch, you can do like this: Replay
This will force zerg on the defensive, or he can counter and die
This build includes scv cutting after 2 scvs from expansion and then add another 2 rax while academy is almost complete, making a total of 4 barracks.
Any 2hatch zerg making mutalisks will have a hard time defending when up against 4 rax m&m.
Both these two styles of play neutralize the mutalisks from doing any damage on your scvs and you can keep your turretcount very low.
You could do like morrow aswell, but its another style specially vs 2hatch which is based on defending without much damage.
I like the agressive style more.
If he does the zerobuild, which is 12pool/gas and ultrafast spire. Make the CC on highground.
Do the same 9suply 11 rax 15suply 18cc (2rine before cc) 22 suply 24 rax 25 gas 26 aca 27/28 ebay.
This is almost the same as the first build but you dont move out directly, stay on 2 rax while making turrets in time. After a while, add a third and when you have stim if you've defended well so far you can start moving out.
Watch flash vs Calm game 1 for more infromation, but flash makes a slightly later Ebay which i think was almost a few seconds too late but worked out in the end.
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On January 03 2010 07:01 Manit0u wrote:
+1 armour first > +1 weapons in TvZ
not vs mutas. +1 attack is much better than +1 deffence vs mutas.
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+1 attack is almost always better.
If you're going to be really offensive, +1 armor can be better vs fast lurkers. If not, +1 attack is much better since you will be using bunkers to neutralize lurkers anyway.
And +1 is obviously better vs mutalisks.
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On January 03 2010 08:39 StylishVODs wrote:
+1 attack is almost always better.
If you're going to be really offensive, +1 armor can be better vs fast lurkers. If not, +1 attack is much better since you will be using bunkers to neutralize lurkers anyway.
And +1 is obviously better vs mutalisks.
Question about fast lurkers (as in before mutas) anyway ...
Why do people do it? I mean, I love using my first scan to see a hydralisk den because I already know the game is over. I just build another bunker/turret at my front, check my base's proximity for overlords preparing to elevator, and then get a dropship and go in for all of his tech/main drones ASAP. There's almost nothing he can do without scourge/mutas to fend off my initial attack, and from then on it's so easy to deny a third with some half-hearted drops.
After that I usually transition into quick BC's. Style comes first.
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In the first replay you seem pretty weak vs a Zerg who decides to go straight for your main/natural - you have 1 turret by your Barracks and none at your main and around 10 rines so if you added turrets you'd have 4 or so rines.. what would you do then?
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well he could always try to break my bunker + 6marines with 9muta and some lings, but he wouldnt damage me that much and he'll lose an expansion and all his units.
I have 3 turrets defending my main, 6rine 1medic and 3 rines making + 4in the bunker.
If he decides to attack my main, 9 muta vs 1turret 6stim rine with range and ill be getting 3 more soon + i can use the marines from my bunker.
If he decides to attack my natural, I have a pretty small chokepoint and a bunker close for scvs to repair and 2 turrets + units on the ramp. He would get slaughtered.
I've never lost or seen flash lose with this build during the mutalisk timing from a 3hatch build.
RosaParksStolemyseat
people usually go for lurks first if they want to secure their third and go for fast defiler or if they want to break you (2hatch lurk)
Usually it involves quite alot of lings for any kind of drop.
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Learnt alot in this thread, ty stylish
My TvZ is terrible,I have hard time to defense against heavy muta harrass.
And, when do you need to get the starport up, right afer a fac or delay a little bit?.
In your reps you make it looks so ez T_T
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nice thread. Thanks for the reps Stylish, waiting for your next vod
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i'm confused as to what to do about zergs that are cliffing your turrets before range comes out. I was actually considering going faster acad before 2nd rax so that range will finish sooner. Basically zergs 2hatch muta against me but i don't know what to do about the cliffs. Sure I can get sight on them with scan, but the bigger issue is there is no room to micro. As i understand it, rines are supposed to run past the mutas then focus fire so they can finish one off before they escape. however, with cliffs that becomes impossible. I merely get a few shots each time they come by. I wish i had room on every map for bunkers near cliffs, but that is not alwaysthe case. Anyways, one of my two questions is:
before and after marine range, is it worth moving rines + medics behind the mineral line and just standing there for extra fire power to support your turrets. if not, is the est thing to do o such maps to place 3-5 turrets at the nat as you get money and neglect turrets elsewhere so that you can have room to micro at the spot they choose to attack?
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knightpraetor, if he 2hatch mutas you, there's no shame in putting up a few extra turrets, he already has a considerably worse economy, so you cant expect to go by on the same amount of turrets, otherwise there would be no reason to 2hatch muta.
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Just going out of topic; this is the real reason why I am deciding to switch to 2 rax FE because its so much safer and has more comfortable responses to the different variants the zerg can throw at you. Like if zerg decides to go 9 pool, you will be at a much safer position with 2 rax and have more marines and you will still be ahead despite the slower CC.
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On January 03 2010 08:10 StylishVODs wrote:Ok so I'm going to post this in my VOD thread, but I can't make VODs yet so I'm posting replays. This is the way flash has been playing lately. ReplayThis includes a second scvscout since its on a 4player map. If you scout slightly earlier than 12/18 you will be able to scout 2 locations before your second marine is finnished, and you can cancel it to make a CC faster. Use the second scv scout to return to base and make suply before second rax at 24. refinary after second barracks, academy after refinary, rax after academy, suply after that and then ebay abit after academy is finnished. This will allow you to get a unitcombo of 3medics 10rine and 1bat or 2medics 10rine 2bats. You use this force to move out while scouting with a scv and making a bunker for any kind of stab. If you want to play it safe, make turrets before factory, but cross pos you can make factory right before turrets on 3 rax. Specially if you notice that the zerg is trying to save his third with his muta rather than attacking you. If he does this, you can reinforce your troop with the units at home. This way the only way for him to save his third is to continue with muta/ling and its going to be hard for him even so. If you scout a 2hatch, you can do like this: ReplayThis will force zerg on the defensive, or he can counter and die This build includes scv cutting after 2 scvs from expansion and then add another 2 rax while academy is almost complete, making a total of 4 barracks. Any 2hatch zerg making mutalisks will have a hard time defending when up against 4 rax m&m. Both these two styles of play neutralize the mutalisks from doing any damage on your scvs and you can keep your turretcount very low. You could do like morrow aswell, but its another style specially vs 2hatch which is based on defending without much damage. I like the agressive style more. If he does the zerobuild, which is 12pool/gas and ultrafast spire. Make the CC on highground. Do the same 9suply 11 rax 15suply 18cc (2rine before cc) 22 suply 24 rax 25 gas 26 aca 27/28 ebay. This is almost the same as the first build but you dont move out directly, stay on 2 rax while making turrets in time. After a while, add a third and when you have stim if you've defended well so far you can start moving out. Watch flash vs Calm game 1 for more infromation, but flash makes a slightly later Ebay which i think was almost a few seconds too late but worked out in the end.
What's the zero build exacly? Are you talking about that the z keep on one hatchery thus the quick spire? Cuz 2 hatching z's normally goes 12 gas/pool or am I wrong?
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On January 08 2010 06:12 ZeKk wrote:
What's the zero build exacly?
On January 03 2010 08:10 StylishVODs wrote:
If he does the zerobuild, which is 12pool/gas and ultrafast spire.
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On January 08 2010 06:12 ZeKk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2010 08:10 StylishVODs wrote:Ok so I'm going to post this in my VOD thread, but I can't make VODs yet so I'm posting replays. This is the way flash has been playing lately. ReplayThis includes a second scvscout since its on a 4player map. If you scout slightly earlier than 12/18 you will be able to scout 2 locations before your second marine is finnished, and you can cancel it to make a CC faster. Use the second scv scout to return to base and make suply before second rax at 24. refinary after second barracks, academy after refinary, rax after academy, suply after that and then ebay abit after academy is finnished. This will allow you to get a unitcombo of 3medics 10rine and 1bat or 2medics 10rine 2bats. You use this force to move out while scouting with a scv and making a bunker for any kind of stab. If you want to play it safe, make turrets before factory, but cross pos you can make factory right before turrets on 3 rax. Specially if you notice that the zerg is trying to save his third with his muta rather than attacking you. If he does this, you can reinforce your troop with the units at home. This way the only way for him to save his third is to continue with muta/ling and its going to be hard for him even so. If you scout a 2hatch, you can do like this: ReplayThis will force zerg on the defensive, or he can counter and die This build includes scv cutting after 2 scvs from expansion and then add another 2 rax while academy is almost complete, making a total of 4 barracks. Any 2hatch zerg making mutalisks will have a hard time defending when up against 4 rax m&m. Both these two styles of play neutralize the mutalisks from doing any damage on your scvs and you can keep your turretcount very low. You could do like morrow aswell, but its another style specially vs 2hatch which is based on defending without much damage. I like the agressive style more. If he does the zerobuild, which is 12pool/gas and ultrafast spire. Make the CC on highground. Do the same 9suply 11 rax 15suply 18cc (2rine before cc) 22 suply 24 rax 25 gas 26 aca 27/28 ebay. This is almost the same as the first build but you dont move out directly, stay on 2 rax while making turrets in time. After a while, add a third and when you have stim if you've defended well so far you can start moving out. Watch flash vs Calm game 1 for more infromation, but flash makes a slightly later Ebay which i think was almost a few seconds too late but worked out in the end. What's the zero build exacly? Are you talking about that the z keep on one hatchery thus the quick spire? Cuz 2 hatching z's normally goes 12 gas/pool or am I wrong?
Standard 2hatch muta is 12hatch, and then either gas/pool or pool/gas. You get more larva and spending money that way, although your mutas are a little later and you're more vulnerable to bunker rushes.
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i think it depends on what the zerg is doing if you want the academy or second barracks first if you want extra range or stim fast to combat muta harass or something like that i guess thats what the faster academy does
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tnx Severedevil, nice to see some1 answer my question properly.
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Check out the "Art of TvZ" article.
It outlines contemporary tvz build order and gameflow...amazing stuff : D
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EPT
