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On December 05 2009 17:55 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2009 17:46 eXigent. wrote:On December 05 2009 17:41 Nevuk wrote:Lzgamer did this to Machine. It's perfectly viable, even at higher levels of play, it's just that the P almost always has to be better than the Z. Not by a lot, but by some. Some foreigner killed gorush with scouts after a failed 2 hatch muta, iirc. It's in the replay section. The problems with the build are mostly in the transitions. Getting a large ground army is hard to figure out the window, and just massing scouts stops working eventually. If you go carriers, you may as well have gone sair/reaver first. The other large problem is it's very map dependent, any maps with islands it works well, all others it really varies. Blue storm and cliff heavy maps they work well. On December 05 2009 17:40 eXigent. wrote:
what stops a zerg from ensnaring your 11 scouts, and then picking them off with hydra / scourge? Even ensared, speed upgraded scouts move pretty fast. Scourge move faster, but they can still be hit with patrol micro a few times. If there are lots of cliffs on the map, trying to kill scouts with hydras is very tough. sticking with the ensnare, what if he ensnares your 11 scouts while they are close to his 3rd/natural...and then hydra rushes the tosses natural. Without much units defending it, and no storm, how do you expect to save it? This build is a reaver into scouts build. I tried it out earlier today, but my opponent was so bad it wouldn't really have mattered what I did. 3 hatch hydras definitely did nothing though. Most scout builds in pvz involve getting scouts after getting air control and reavers/storm. Scouts come pretty late, and queens/ensare won't be made until after scouts are scouted, so it will be fairly late in the game as to when you're talking about. Scout builds aren't like 2 port wraith or 2 hatch muta, they're very different in style... very similar to sair/reaver, if I had to describe the way they play out.
ah I see.
Ok how about 2 or 3 hatch hydra break. He states that he has this in the early to mid game
[1 shuttle, 3 nexii, 1 reaver, 1 zealot, 4-8 cannon in nat, 2 cannon in main, 1 stargate, 1 core (upgrading air attack), 1 forge, 1 robo support bay, 1 robo facility]
is that feasable against a competant zerg that opens with hydra to rush cannons. Once the reaver dies, is it not game over?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
How many cannons are you going to build when zerg has 36 hydras? This build really doesn't work because zerg could just 1a2a3a your natural.
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I've fooled around D+/C- many times when I'm bored with something like this, except i just get a quick reaver on my nat, 3 stargates and wait till 11 scouts just like you said and only get my third later. I trap a dragoon in pylons so i dont have to worry about trapping something else :D Things do start going downhill when they get plagues off you and spore spam.
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On December 05 2009 19:08 T.O.P. wrote:
How many cannons are you going to build when zerg has 36 hydras? This build really doesn't work because zerg could just 1a2a3a your natural.
Cannon + Reaver. What are you talking about? Hydra rushes slower than 2hatch are a joke when you're going reavers.
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On December 05 2009 18:22 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2009 18:06 Nevuk wrote:Plague doesn't really work well on scouts. I mean, it hits them, but they have plenty of shields and a decent microer won't let his scouts get hit enough times by hydras to matter, and forcing an open confrontation in the air without ground support is rather unlikely. Here's the game I was thinking of. It's version 1.15 or 1.14 though, I think. G5 playing gorush with scouts. (Gorush makes no hydras, but ignore that part...) http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=1037http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=68913edit : This is a totally different build, though. Just a demonstration of scouts in pvz and their general use. The first one is corrupted :C
You have to patch down to 1.14 or 1.15 by using the 7x patcher thing. Actually, checking with bwchart, it's a 1.13 replay. So patch the .exe to 1.13 and it will work.
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i want a replay of this so bad
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How much "micro potential" do Scouts have when compared against Mutalisks and Wraiths? Before speed and after speed?
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It's "Nexuses" not "Nexii".
/grammar police signing off
I love Scouts.
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On December 06 2009 06:40 Deviation wrote:
How much "micro potential" do Scouts have when compared against Mutalisks and Wraiths? Before speed and after speed?
I will just say that Scouts are one of the easiest units to micro (imo). Their long range missles and not super-picky ground attack make them ideal for microing.
There is a reason scouts aren't used and it really has nothing to do with their micro. If you're bored sometime go mass scouts vs a computer, they are by far the most fun unit to micro (again, imo).
As far as the build, I approve of anything involving scouts. I wish Blizzard would either a) make them cost less b) let them have speed at spawn or c) make them build faster. I honestly think it would help Protoss in the 'PvZ imba') and wouldn't be too OP against Terran.
For viability though, we'll have to wait and see if anyone posts good replays (a few have been posted already)
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On December 06 2009 06:49 HuskyTheHusky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 06:40 Deviation wrote:
How much "micro potential" do Scouts have when compared against Mutalisks and Wraiths? Before speed and after speed? I will just say that Scouts are one of the easiest units to micro (imo). Their long range missles and not super-picky ground attack make them ideal for microing. There is a reason scouts aren't used and it really has nothing to do with their micro. If you're bored sometime go mass scouts vs a computer, they are by far the most fun unit to micro (again, imo). As far as the build, I approve of anything involving scouts. I wish Blizzard would either a) make them cost less b) let them have speed at spawn or c) make them build faster. I honestly think it would help Protoss in the 'TvZ imba') and wouldn't be too OP against Terran. For viability though, we'll have to wait and see if anyone posts good replays (a few have been posted already)
It would help protoss in TvZ eh? Interesting concept 
No I kid
I like this build, has OP gotten home to post reps? Or has anyone else grabbed some reps? I can't actually play online at the moment my wireless connection is too shaky 
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Wouldn't you just die if they mass hydras and attack you? What about dark swarm? Do the scouts transition into a more standard PvZ army or are they used until the end to finish off the opponent?
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omfg! stop the complaining -.- this is a really badass build ^_^
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United States889 Posts
It's pretty lolz that you admit all the weaknesses of scouts and this build up front.
And for the record I cannot possibly disagree more with your statement that the strength of scouts is underestimated. Hydras own scouts. Scourge own scouts. Spores own scouts. They do, fully upgraded, 11 damage to ground units. Unupgraded, which is more likely, they do 8 damage to ground units. Their rate of fire is significantly slower than hydralisks, and, most importantly, you can build 3, nearly 4 hydralisks with as much as a scout takes. One scout has a hard enough time killing 2 hydralisks. 3 is suicide. If the zerg has even bad macro the ratio to hydras to scouts alone will doom this strategy.
Add to that the fact that they take forever to build as you said, and hydralisks don't, this build is just plain suicide. I'd love to see it work because scouts are funny but seriously, two spores at each expansion and normal hydralisk numbers would annihilate this build.
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I toyed around with scouts a bit before. I began using them exactly like mutalisks but only against zerg for ovie hunting. Could probably be a really funny thing to do to a weaker friend but I bet how much it costs even though they are good at it, a decent player will make you pay.
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I always support any build based on the Scout.
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That looks pretty much like the Stove build right? I don't remember the stove getting that many scouts though (from 2 stargates nonetheless).
Very nice game BTW, it's always cool to see scouts get used.
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Im no stove specialist but iirc a textbooks stove includes just 1 scout.
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I would think a reaver-scout build would work like a reaver-sair build? Anyway, pretty cool idea... imagine bisu using this build rofl :D
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I think my 2 hatch muta micro, + 3rd expo after attacking and constant mutas could own your 2 corsairs and 2 cannons lol.
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EPT
