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The Scout Build!

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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SilverA123
Profile Joined November 2009
United States17 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-05 06:56:28
December 05 2009 06:53 GMT
#1
[edit: WHOOPS! I forgot to make an appropriate title :/ Hopefully you guys can fix it and overlook it just this once]

Hey guys, its MY first post on this site. My first first post was stolen by my friend when i left my computer on :[
How sad.
Some of you might recognize me from the WCG Qualifiers, I sat around the channel and had some pretty nice discussions with a few of you.
Or as the poor sap that was always paired against G5 or Luckyfool

Few things to note:
Due to college apps, a new girlfriend and the Intel Science Talent Search,
-I don’t have the time to mass game iccup so I just goof off on iccup against my C/C+ ranked friends
-I don’t keep track of proleague trends, in fact only 2 weeks ago was I beat by 3 hatch spire 5 hatch hydra
-I hate long games because I lack the practice to have good macro

That being said, I am in no way your typical Protoss player.

So one day, while taking an extremely wasteful 50 minute shower I was thinking up a starcraft build to use for the TSL.

It would have to be extremely straight forward, extremely easy to pull off macrowise, fun to do so I don’t get bored and end up on Modern Warfare 2
And most importantly…

Is a cheese

-The idea behind the build-
Reaver sair is good on a few maps, namely andromeda and on cross positions python and destination
Coincidentally, all of these maps have a relatively easy 3rd gas to obtain… It’s either on a friggen island or has a really neat bridge infront of it where a good sim city + reavers can massacre 40 hydralisks. (for the sake of simplicity, I’ll be referring to your 3rd base as an “island” for the remainder of this guide)

The build is designed to look like reaver sair for the most part, that is until the first pair of scourge die
The build is also designed to not have any openings to any cheeses because it is based off of the Forge FE

-The Build-
I hate having to give you guys psi/max psi counts (e.g. 8/9 pylon)
Why? Because it’s the forge FE. You could be doing 13 forge 13 nex, 14 nex, 12 nex, 11 forge 12 double cannon and 14 nexus
The point is, there’s a lot of different possible openings, it’ll be kinda hard to write down
So bear with me while I give you relative timings and a brief summary of what you have at a certain key point in the game.



1) The super duper early game!
You start off your basic forge FE with the objective of getting a second nexus as fast as possible without dying

If you have the opportunity to gateway first (lucky scout or you’re playing on colosseum 2), do so!
As soon as your gateway is making that pwwwwinngggg noise (warping in), take a gas!
[What you should have: 1-4 cannons, 1 gateway, 2 nex, 1 zealot, 1 forge]



2) The kinda sorta maybe early midgame
When your core is finished take the second gas
Get a stargate and then a robo facility
Make 1 corsair and try to keep it alive as long as possible
Start making a second corsair a few seconds after the second one (shuttles are expensive! :/ )
Take the island expansion as your 3rd gas and use the standard “make robo support bay when the shuttle is 50%” thing to get yourself your first reaver and add cannons. You want to have around 8 so you look like you’re dedicated to reaver sair.

[1 shuttle, 3 nexii, 1 reaver, 1 zealot, 4-8 cannon in nat, 2 cannon in main, 1 stargate, 1 core (upgrading air attack), 1 forge, 1 robo support bay, 1 robo facility]



3) The zerg begins to spam 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh time!
After the first reaver is done and 8 probes are transferred to your island, cut probe production in the first two nexii in order to produce 4 more stargates and a fleet beacon (wait 10 seconds after scout speed to start making scouts so they finish at appropriate times).
You want 2 reavers in your front and 1 reaver in your island shortly after that
Oh and get a scout with your original stargate

Note: It is crucial you do not let your 3rd gas fall. Fill every little bit of room on your island with cannons

Get an observatory and start making a few observers so you can see possible incoming dropships to your island or extremely vulnerable main

[1 shuttle, 3 nexii, 3 reaver, 1 zealot, 8 cannon in nat, 2 cannon in main, 6-10 cannon in island, 5 stargate, 1 core, 1 fleet beacon, 1 forge, 1 robo support bay, 1 robo facility, 1 observatory, 1 scout]



4) The dude caught on to you so he’s now taking a 4th and 5th base
If he isn’t doing that, he’s bad at this game
Do not push out until you have 11 scouts.
Note: 1 scout + 5 scouts + 5 scouts = 11 scouts!!!

From then on out you keep pumping scouts and attempt to get the other island, or a reasonably safe 4th base with 2 more reavers sitting ontop of the ramp or whatever.

If you do get a 4th base you get 3 more stargates
If its andromeda you can add 1 more stargate when you get your min only
It’s up to you whether or not you want to switch into a ground army after you’ve decimated enough of the drones and overlords. In fact, you already have 5 reavers ready to push with a bunch of dragoons and templars. It’s a pretty shaky transition but hey it kinda works

[1 shuttle, 3-4 nexii, 3-5 revers, 1 zealot, 8 cannon in nat, 2-6 cannon in main, 6-10 cannon in island, 5-9 stargate, 1 core, 1 fleet beacon, 1 forge, 1 robo support bay, 1 robo facility, 1 observatory, 11 scouts]

-The control-
Scouts with speed are pretty darn annoying…
11 scouts with +1 attack stacked with a probe (probes cant fly so why don’t you pick one from your island?) can 1 shot kill hydralisks
and 1 shot kill overlords
and 1 shot kill drones
and take down any creep colony that started to warp to a spore colony before it becomes a spore colony

22 scouts can freely engage 4 spore colonies and take minimal losses

Try not to engage hydralisks as they do a lot of damage in critical mass. Rather just fly around and starve the zerg out by making him remake drones and overlords.

The micro vs scourge is simple.
I’m sure most of you guys know of the ZvZ Muta vs Scourge Patrol trick where you use patrol to shoot while flying when you’re 2 matrices away from the scourge
Well scouts have a longer range than mutas do so you have even more space to use the Patrol trick.


-Why this build isn’t absolute crap?-
Any early game cheese or break will not get through because the strength of the Forge FE is defense.
Most people have little practice vs scouts and therefore will underestimate their strength.
That is, scouts can take one hell of a beating and if you have shield batteries they’re gonna last oh so much longer.

-Possible counters?-
If they go 2 hatch muta they’ll run into 2 cannons and 2 corsairs
If they go some crazy muta tech switch, im pretty sure 2-6 cannon and 11 scouts will beat 20 muta
Lurker drop? Reavers + obs + scouts
Hydra drop? Unless it is SUPER SUPER SUPER early, you’ll have map control and be able to kill all the ovies before the hydras are done
Ultraling? You’re funny

They need some clutch plagues to win, and usually people will have just finished hive tech by the time you attack. Use your observers to scout out their tech, this is crucial.
If there are defilers, you must be more careful

-The beauty of this build-
YOU CAN HAVE TERRIBLE MACRO AND STILL PULL THIS OFF BECAUSE SCOUTS TAKE FOREVER TO BUILD
I spend most of my time watching the scouts I’m microing
Whenever I see my gas pile up to 600 or something I go back to my stargates and make another round. And even then they end up queued.

Game winning scenario!

[22-33 scouts destroying every hatchery, drone, overlord, whatever. 3-5 bases (including main and natural), 5-12 stargates pumping scouts OR 12+ gateways pumping ground, 5+ reavers in defense or being dropped to be annoying, the rest of the buildings I named before (its not as important as what I already listed)]


I would love to post some replays, but I don’t have access to my computer right now. In fact I should be taking notes during History class.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
meeple
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada10211 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-05 07:00:28
December 05 2009 06:56 GMT
#2
Please for the love of god, don't post a thread title in all caps... I can't even take it seriously
Edit: ok I read it... and saw your edit.

Is this theorycrafting? Or have you actually done this build and won with it?
SilverA123
Profile Joined November 2009
United States17 Posts
December 05 2009 07:05 GMT
#3


Is this theorycrafting? Or have you actually done this build and won with it?


I beat a few C level Zerg friends of mine
and I went 7-0 on iccup with it
then agian that 7 was vs a bunch of Ds...

Which is why I want other people's thoughts on this!
Especially those of a C- and higher level zerg or protoss
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants
G3nXsiS
Profile Joined July 2009
United States656 Posts
December 05 2009 07:18 GMT
#4
I honestly think that this build will only work on maps where its easy for protoss to defend. Mass hydras seem kinda strong against this build because you are not gonna have templars and yes reavers are strong but if they have good enough swarms they can break your front door really easy with lurkers and lings with the hydras going up against the scouts.
Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment
Deviation
Profile Joined November 2009
United States134 Posts
December 05 2009 08:18 GMT
#5
I want a replay and popcorn.
stink123
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States241 Posts
December 05 2009 08:21 GMT
#6
If the map doesn't have an island 3rd, does this weaken the build a lot?


(Of course this is a pretty bad build, but seems very fun to try at lower levels)
lazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia3119 Posts
December 05 2009 08:25 GMT
#7
this is a terrible build.
MamiyaOtaru
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1687 Posts
December 05 2009 08:33 GMT
#8
but perfect to use on my chobo friends. I'll have to give it a shot
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
December 05 2009 08:35 GMT
#9
This would be suicide to try vs any competent zerg.
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
eXigent.
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Canada2419 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-05 08:43:45
December 05 2009 08:40 GMT
#10
uhhh what about 2 or 3 hatch hydra break? Even 5-6 cannons cant stop this, and only delays them until you have STORM, which....you are not getting. Hydra rush would destroy this build pretty easy.

also

what stops a zerg from ensnaring your 11 scouts, and then picking them off with hydra / scourge?
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-05 08:43:25
December 05 2009 08:41 GMT
#11
Lzgamer did this to Machine. It's perfectly viable, even at higher levels of play, it's just that the P almost always has to be better than the Z. Not by a lot, but by some. Some foreigner killed gorush with scouts after a failed 2 hatch muta, iirc. It's in the replay section.

The problems with the build are mostly in the transitions. Getting a large ground army is hard to figure out the window, and just massing scouts stops working eventually. If you go carriers, you may as well have gone sair/reaver first. The other large problem is it's very map dependent, any maps with islands it works well, all others it really varies. Blue storm and cliff heavy maps they work well.

On December 05 2009 17:40 eXigent. wrote:
what stops a zerg from ensnaring your 11 scouts, and then picking them off with hydra / scourge?

Even ensared, speed upgraded scouts move pretty fast. Scourge move faster, but they can still be hit with patrol micro a few times. If there are lots of cliffs on the map, trying to kill scouts with hydras is very tough.
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
December 05 2009 08:43 GMT
#12
plagu. end of story.
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
eXigent.
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Canada2419 Posts
December 05 2009 08:46 GMT
#13
On December 05 2009 17:41 Nevuk wrote:
Lzgamer did this to Machine. It's perfectly viable, even at higher levels of play, it's just that the P almost always has to be better than the Z. Not by a lot, but by some. Some foreigner killed gorush with scouts after a failed 2 hatch muta, iirc. It's in the replay section.

The problems with the build are mostly in the transitions. Getting a large ground army is hard to figure out the window, and just massing scouts stops working eventually. If you go carriers, you may as well have gone sair/reaver first. The other large problem is it's very map dependent, any maps with islands it works well, all others it really varies. Blue storm and cliff heavy maps they work well.

Show nested quote +
On December 05 2009 17:40 eXigent. wrote:
what stops a zerg from ensnaring your 11 scouts, and then picking them off with hydra / scourge?

Even ensared, speed upgraded scouts move pretty fast. Scourge move faster, but they can still be hit with patrol micro a few times. If there are lots of cliffs on the map, trying to kill scouts with hydras is very tough.


sticking with the ensnare, what if he ensnares your 11 scouts while they are close to his 3rd/natural...and then hydra rushes the tosses natural. Without much units defending it, and no storm, how do you expect to save it?
MasterReY
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Germany2708 Posts
December 05 2009 08:47 GMT
#14
i love this build. gj lol
https://www.twitch.tv/MasterReY/ ~ Biggest Reach fan on TL.net (Don't even dare to mention LR now) ~ R.I.P Violet ~ Developer of SCRChart
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
December 05 2009 08:55 GMT
#15
On December 05 2009 17:46 eXigent. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2009 17:41 Nevuk wrote:
Lzgamer did this to Machine. It's perfectly viable, even at higher levels of play, it's just that the P almost always has to be better than the Z. Not by a lot, but by some. Some foreigner killed gorush with scouts after a failed 2 hatch muta, iirc. It's in the replay section.

The problems with the build are mostly in the transitions. Getting a large ground army is hard to figure out the window, and just massing scouts stops working eventually. If you go carriers, you may as well have gone sair/reaver first. The other large problem is it's very map dependent, any maps with islands it works well, all others it really varies. Blue storm and cliff heavy maps they work well.

On December 05 2009 17:40 eXigent. wrote:
what stops a zerg from ensnaring your 11 scouts, and then picking them off with hydra / scourge?

Even ensared, speed upgraded scouts move pretty fast. Scourge move faster, but they can still be hit with patrol micro a few times. If there are lots of cliffs on the map, trying to kill scouts with hydras is very tough.


sticking with the ensnare, what if he ensnares your 11 scouts while they are close to his 3rd/natural...and then hydra rushes the tosses natural. Without much units defending it, and no storm, how do you expect to save it?

This build is a reaver into scouts build. I tried it out earlier today, but my opponent was so bad it wouldn't really have mattered what I did. 3 hatch hydras definitely did nothing though.

Most scout builds in pvz involve getting scouts after getting air control and reavers/storm. Scouts come pretty late, and queens/ensare won't be made until after scouts are scouted, so it will be fairly late in the game as to when you're talking about. Scout builds aren't like 2 port wraith or 2 hatch muta, they're very different in style... very similar to sair/reaver, if I had to describe the way they play out.
Torenhire
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States11681 Posts
December 05 2009 08:56 GMT
#16
On December 05 2009 17:43 Misrah wrote:
plagu. end of story.


While I think it's a farfetched build... he explained that most of this would go on before plague came out. Or at least the initial attack.
SirJolt: Well maybe if you weren't so big and stupid, it wouldn't have hit you.
LaughingTulkas
Profile Joined March 2008
United States1107 Posts
December 05 2009 08:58 GMT
#17
Any reps? Esp if someone has the Lz/Machine one stashed away somewheres?
"I love noobies, they're so happy." -Chill
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
December 05 2009 08:58 GMT
#18
Can we has replay ? :D
In the woods, there lurks..
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-05 09:09:08
December 05 2009 09:06 GMT
#19
Plague doesn't really work well on scouts. I mean, it hits them, but they have plenty of shields and a decent microer won't let his scouts get hit enough times by hydras to matter, and forcing an open confrontation in the air without ground support is rather unlikely.

Here's the game I was thinking of. It's version 1.15 or 1.14 though, I think. G5 playing gorush with scouts. (Gorush makes no hydras, but ignore that part...)

http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=1037
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=68913

edit : This is a totally different build, though. Just a demonstration of scouts in pvz and their general use.
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
December 05 2009 09:22 GMT
#20
On December 05 2009 18:06 Nevuk wrote:
Plague doesn't really work well on scouts. I mean, it hits them, but they have plenty of shields and a decent microer won't let his scouts get hit enough times by hydras to matter, and forcing an open confrontation in the air without ground support is rather unlikely.

Here's the game I was thinking of. It's version 1.15 or 1.14 though, I think. G5 playing gorush with scouts. (Gorush makes no hydras, but ignore that part...)

http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=1037
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=68913

edit : This is a totally different build, though. Just a demonstration of scouts in pvz and their general use.

The first one is corrupted :C
In the woods, there lurks..
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