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I don't know if someone has already taken the time to go through every (possible/practical) unit combination and created charts for amount of hits,damage,reduction,DPS,armor/attack upgrades. But it would seem like it would be a good idea to understand these more in depth.
I mean we all know that +1 upgrade is the matter of life and death for lings and tanks. But what I'm proposing is more detailed version with all kinds of unit combos so that we can instead of just using our intuition and game experience to figure out the the best line to take in a game (assuming you can calculate and/or memorize the charts).
Another example would be for poker, It's pretty common knowledge the outs/percentage you have for a straight or a flush with 1 or 2 cards to go depending on what is showing. But you can use a formula to figure out the exact outs based on what cards you hold (or what else was known) to dictate an even better course of action.
Let me create an in game scenario, Say you have just had a skirmish in a ZvP. You have 10 leftover 1/1 hydras versus his retreating carriers (no armor up) that will be within canon range in a matter of seconds. You can feel your intuition telling you that you can get the carrier before it gets to the canons/reaver with none or minimal loss. And if you lose to many hydras here that can cause you to go onto the slippery slope. Can you be sure what to do?
Just imagine how good you could be if you could constantly calculate these things from raw data instead of just eyeballing it like we all do. We can understand metagame timing windows more in depth.
Charts like these below can help us understand the game just a little bit more to give us slight edges should circumstances like this come up.
(sorry for rough copies, should obviously be ported to excell or something)
PS - I left a few questions on those images as I was making them, input is appreciated.
One thing that instantly stands out to me on the hydra chart is that hydras are more effective versus goons when both are 0/0 and they are worse when both are 3/3. When compared with the zergling chart, we can see that the lings are equally as effective with full upgrades versus fully upgraded dragoons as they are with no upgrades (without considering researches). We can also see exactly how many hits units take to die from other units on the varying degrees of upgrades versus armor. So now I understand why hydras are bad vs goons when they have more upgrades later on in the game.
If we calculate the DPS on said unit while subtracting the regeneration of shields/hp we can also compensate how many more hits will be required in the short frame of time (such as chasing a unit down).
It would be interesting to see more charts like these for more common unit vs unit combinations. Archons, Vultures, DTs, Marines, zealots, dragoons, etc.
It's a lot of time for 1 person to do all of them so maybe you can do one that you were wondering about.
Here are some unit size/damage type information to help you if you decide to make one of your own and share it here.
http://classic.battle.net/scc/protoss/pstats.shtml
C does 25/50/100 versus L/M/S
E does 100/75/50 verssus L/M/S
normal does 100 versus all
here is another interesting related chart
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~edfu/starcraft/Unit stats.jpg <-- copy pasta
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Nice idea. Though the images are not loading x(
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maybe we can all collaborate on a likiwiki page for this?
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I don't understand the chart whatsoever.
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On October 29 2009 10:35 FabledIntegral wrote:
I don't understand the chart whatsoever.
yea sorry, the main data is on the right side. You have attack damage + upgs down the left and going across we have the subtractions of carapace upgrades. In the red, is the amount of hits it would take that damage to kill the unit (hydra or ling). So a goon at best can kill a ling in under 3 hits while at the worst it would take 5.
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This would be cool to put on team liquid's wiki, although those charts are terrible...
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The easy math that makes up starcraft is one of the reasons i loved it so much at the start. I tried playing Dawn of War once and it's pretty much impossible to mentally calculate damage. I couldn't understand unit counters at all.
With that said, your charts confuse me and your assumption in the bottom right is wrong. Base armor is applied before armor type. As an example, a fully upgraded goon attacking a fully upgraded ling would do (26-3)/2 = 11.5 damage. This means that a fully upgraded goon can kill a ling in 3 shots instead of 4 regardless of the lings upgrades (11.5*3 = 34.5 = every other ling).
I also think that the ideal is to put everything into muscle memory instead of having to think things through. Trying to do math mid-game will only needlessly complicate the situation.
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While knowing damage taken and such, game sense is very important and cannot be replaced, plus its far too much effort for me  .
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All you have to do is know things like "+1 goons kill tanks in 8 hits instead of 9", you don't sit there with a calculator going "I have 12 goons and he has 10 tanks..."
That was an example, I have no idea how many shots it takes to kill a tank with upgrades or without.
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Like the effort, but the charts confused me a bit D:
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Yeah it's good, if you'd like to keep going you'll have my support 
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I did something like this with excel graphs with all the protoss and zerg units DPS at all four levels of upgrades, PM if you would want the files.
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its a really good idea, and for some of those people who hate not being perfectly efficient, its good stuff.
but i cannot read your pics at all lol.
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I'm not good with numbers, but all I know is that upgrades are good.
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United States17042 Posts
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I did this awhile ago and never bothered to post it x_x
+ Show Spoiler +
DAMAGE PER MINUTE
Terran
SCV 312.5
Marine 372
Marine(s) 639
Firebat 746
Firebat(s) 1467.5
Medic 759
Ghost 435
Vulture 630
Goliath(g) 516
Goliath(a) 860
Tank 750
Tank(s) 910
Wraith(g) 256
Wraith(a) 870
BC(g) 800
BC(a) 762.5
Valkyrie 724
Irradiate 404.5
Turret 1230
Zerg
Drone 212.5
Zergling 575
Zergling(s) 850
Hydralisk 610
Lurker 520
Mutalisk(1) 288
Mutalisk(2) 96
Mutalisk(3) 32
Devourer 250
Guardian 640
Ultralisk 1086.67
Plague 479
Broodling 252
Sunken 1200
Spore 922.5
Protoss
Probe 212.5
Zealot 684
Dragoon 630
DT 1280
Archon 1410
Corsair 518.33
Scout(g) 256
Scout(a) 1197
Arbiter 205
Carrier 1207
Storm 1694
Cannon(g) 860
Cannon(a) 860
Reaver 1600
ATTACKS PER MINUTE
Terran
SCV 62.5
Marine 62
Marine(s) 106.5
Firebat 46.63
Firebat(s) 91.72
Medic N/A
Ghost 43.5
Vulture 78.75
Goliath(g) 43
Goliath(a) 43
Tank 25
Tank(s) 13
Wraith(g) 32
Wraith(a) 43.5
BC(g) 32
BC(a) 30.5
Valkyrie 120.67
Irradiate N/A
Turret 61.5
Zerg
Drone 42.5
Zergling 115
Zergling(s) 170
Hydralisk 61
Lurker 52
Mutalisk(1) 32
Mutalisk(2) 32
Mutalisk(3) 32
Devourer 10
Guardian 32
Ultralisk 54.33
Plague N/A
Broodling 63
Sunken 30
Spore 61.5
Protoss
Probe 42.5
Zealot 42.75
Dragoon 31.5
DT 32
Archon 47
Corsair 103.67
Scout(g) 32
Scout(a) 42.75
Arbiter 20.5
Carrier 201.17
Storm N/A
Cannon(g) 43
Cannon(a) 43
Reaver 16
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I did a small chart of how many hits it takes to kill something. It's very easy to do something like this with excel, but it would take ages to actually make a chart that has all units.
The black 0 is armor mod and 50% is damage multiplier. I didn't put attack mod here because I initially wanted to do a sunken vs bionic chart.
The science vessel is way off, please ignore it. It should use the air armor type and large size category, which I didn't create.
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I believe armor is introduced to the formula before everything else. So in the case of goon vs ling 3-3 ups goon does (26-3)/2 rather than 26/2-3
Zerg units are gay because they insta regenerate hp. It is because the hp/shields are expressed as a fixed point number that in the case of hp is always rounded up regardless so 0.1=1! This is why vultures need 3 hits to kill a drone and +1 rines still need 6 hits to kill a zergling. Both cases discussed in practice, in theory it is possible to syncronize the shots perfectly at least in case of the marines and do it in 5.
Yes it is possible to do 0.75 damage since like I said hp are expressed as a fixed point number. See Firebat vs Tank(large, armored)
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weird, I just tested a bunch of goon vs ling upg vs armor and all of them held true to my graph, except 3 vs 3 which was 11 instead of 10. (But weird, 3 goons shoot a ling puts it at 1 hp, that means they do 11.5 rounded). Is that just a coincidence with the formulas being pretty similar?
I guess you guys are right about the order of the math. Especially since now that I think about zealots and units that have 2 hits.
On that note, we can see how much of the data rounds up/down and becomes the same.
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But if it's gonna be DPS chart then you need to calculate DPS = Damage Per SECOND, while you calculated damage per hit.
That's quite huge mistake, but very often - esp. made by people claiming that tank's damage is imba
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Like I said to the game 0.5 hp is 1 hp as far as the game is concerned
Also try marines with +1 vs ling. Get 5 marines together with the ling in range, and let them offsync. That is wait until they start turning in different directions. With another ling try with the marines now synced(press S then immediately A-click zergling)
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also dont forget.. you can miss or do 1/2 damage or something if your vs upper ground
or hidin in trees etc n shit
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If I find some time I can write a small application that will put out every graph when fed with the unit numbers. Way easier than creating all the spreadsheets.
As far as the game math goes, 50bani is correct.
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Tsunami (a REALLY old school zerg) once put a xls sheet online which could calculate ANY types of damage calculation needed between different units/upgrades (the only thing it didnt had was obviously advanced handling of ranged vs melee since thats just to hard to get to 'proper' results with micro involved and all that jazz)
unfortunatly it looks like his site isnt available any more (he hosted on geocities back then),
but ill try to find my downloads from the site (i backuped lots of it) and put the damage calculater back on
(will have to wait at least till tomorrow though, hopefully i find it)
as promised Tsunami's xls file (contains a macro so scan with antivirus if you are paranoid), the unit statistics may be a bit outdated but can easily be fixed, just alter them on the unit statistics chart, also interesting are his pre 1.09 thoughts on 1 base zerg builds o_O 
link: http://www.mediafire.com/file/dakzmvmtn2i/brattsunami_files.rar
hf
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Cyronc, is there a way to import that to Liquipedia?
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On October 31 2009 07:02 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Cyronc, is there a way to import that to Liquipedia?
well you could always try asking a codecrafty admin to recode the xls macro as a javascript, and thus make that particular liquipedia page interactive (maybe ask sob?)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i33.tinypic.com/okr6yp.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i33.tinypic.com/qrdy87.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp259/ASDFfighter/hitchart.png)
