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Hey I've been having some trouble versus ultraling recently on ICCup, like all tosses do... and I was wondering what the best unit combination is to combat that strategy.
I figure besides the obvious zealot, goon, archon, and high templar "ball", protoss needs to throw either reavers and/or dark archons into the mix to survive... So I'm not really sure whether reavers or maelstrom is better versus ultraling, is there a standard play? I don't really imagine I could get reavers AND maelstrom AND high templars all at the same time as that's a LOT of gas (or maybe 5 gas is enough?).
If I go reavers what do people think of getting the reaver damage upgrade, like whether it's worth it (200 mins, 200 gas)? I assume the reaver scarab capacity upgrade has never been researched in the history of progaming, right? And, if I go DAs how many should I have in a maxed out 200/200 army?
Oh and one more n00b question lol: scarab damage applies under dark swarm, right!?
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I'm pretty sure the reaver capacity upgrade is pretty much essential when going for the mad reaver because it allows you to carry 10 scarabs so there's never a point where you're waiting for the next scarab to build, which happens when you can only make 5.
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Huh, I did not know that. I've never really used reavers past the early mid-game so I guess I kind of just assumed, given the fast build rate of scarabs, that you didn't need the capacity upgrade for continuous fire... I am an idiot of course.
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That certainly could work and could do damage, but it might just make more sense to spend the mins and gas, from researching Maelstrom, on more HTs. More storms is never a bad thing (unless it's on your own units).
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well u "cant" let the z make ultralings.. its pretty hard when it comes to this point.
a good unit combo is zea+dt+archons and yes, reavers to attack and defend your expo.
when u see the zerg making hive, or before that, try to harass him with dt drops and storms, and start producing corsairs one by one with +1 attack.
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The Reaver damage upgrad is +25 damage each shot, with four reavers, one round is 500 damage compared to 400. If you have enough money to spare (e.g. you are mining from 3 bases) Then yeah I think it would be worth it.
And Scarab attacks still works under darm swarm, Liquipedia is your friend!
And DA is more effective, but harder to use then Reaver. Also Reaver and shutle harrasment is hard to deal with when you just have ultra ling 
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Definitely at your level, get 5-6 sairs and send DTs all over the place. ultraling is already gas intensive, so if luck is with you your sairs will be able to rape a whole lot, since the z needs to spend like 600 gas to take all your sairs down. If you're ahead macro wise, and you keep the z from getting more shit (expos), then you'll most certainly win. And also, Archons are what kills ultraling. an army primarily comprised of archons, rapes about everything.
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On September 20 2009 00:19 jello_biafra wrote:
I'm pretty sure the reaver capacity upgrade is pretty much essential when going for the mad reaver because it allows you to carry 10 scarabs so there's never a point where you're waiting for the next scarab to build, which happens when you can only make 5.
i think thats wrong...just spamming r should always give you enough scarabs....
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On September 20 2009 05:16 lighter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2009 00:19 jello_biafra wrote:
I'm pretty sure the reaver capacity upgrade is pretty much essential when going for the mad reaver because it allows you to carry 10 scarabs so there's never a point where you're waiting for the next scarab to build, which happens when you can only make 5. i think thats wrong...just spamming r should always give you enough scarabs....
I just tested this out, it does reach a point where you're always waiting for the next scarab, not that long though so I guess it's not too bad.
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Norway28669 Posts
capacity is almost never worth it, reavers usually die or get picked up in shuttle before they can shoot like 8 scarabs, assuming you start building when they start firing
damage is worth it for sure, one less hit vs ultralisks, splash damage takes out more hydras, etc.. maelstrom is very good vs ultraling, but obviously only in a very lategame scenario.. it's often not so much about resources as about being able to manage it all though, both storming and maelstroming in the same battle is seriously tough - and reavers require quite a bit of managing as well (with buildings scarabs etc. )
i dont think capacity is worth it even for the purpose of reducing your workload, because you just risk your reavers getting killed with more than 100 minerals worth of scarabs inside.. and that's pretty wasteful.
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United States42693 Posts
It's either or unless the map gets divided and P is making everything in their arsenal imo. Reavers are a great way to add some real killing power and antiswarm to a P army. Late game you can just mix 2/4 in and as long as you micro them well and don't lose them in shuttles ultras become so much more killable and swarm is useless. The alternative if you like the more mobile and lower maintenance army is maelstrom. Get 2-3 dark archons and have at least one of them hotkeyed. The hotkeyed one will be your feedback darchon. You have it hotkeyed for immediate feedback, hitting before they plague/swarm when every second counts. The maelstrom has a dual effect, firstly it stops units moving which makes them every point of damage from storm. Secondly it puts units right at the bottom of the attack priority which is extremely useful. Ultralisks are tanks, zerglings are damage dealers. Throw a maelstrom on the ultralisks and your army will prioritise those zerglings and massacre the weak little monsters in seconds. Then you can surround and kill the ultras at leisure.
For a big protoss death blob maelstrom is better imo, provided you have a constant stream of zealots, dragoons and ht to replace the losses. When you're rampaging around the map I'd use this.
If you've taken half the map and are under assault from ultralisks and swarm then reavers become more effective because the lack of mobility and the vulnerability in shuttles isn't an issue. Plus if they do have shuttles they can redeploy effectively vs drops where a conventional army has trouble.
If it's late game low econ war then use both because it's all nasty stuff.
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Norway28669 Posts
honestly in general reavers are more of a defensive unit than offensive pvz, unless you're going sair reaver
but they are a lot better than templars to stick around in key exps lategame. dark archons on the other hand are much better while attacking someone, you get to feedback defilers before you engage and maelstrom groups that are still standing still (meaning you hit more units)
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Reavers aren't that gas heavy really. They are 200 minerals/100 gas. That's REALLY good for how effective they are (they are cheaper than ultras!).
Honestly if you can, an easy way to secure expansions late late game is to build a robo at the expansion and build reavers there. Damage upgrade helps vs ultralisks quite a bit. Templar/reaver/photon cannon is incredibly cost efficient from what I've seen vs ultraling.
This is only if you really need to secure your expansions though. Works better if you can take it at something like the natural of a main, so you're securing the front of two expos.
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United States42693 Posts
There are often situations in PvZ where you'll crawl towards the critical exp between you and then both will just throw units into the fray, replacing them as fast as possible and grabbing new units from the rally points and attack moving them into the battle. In those situations the line between offensive and defensive unit blurs and a few reavers will be happily defending behind a wall of blocking units but the point they'll be defending will be the expansion you're killing. They definitely have their uses offensively if you can pull it off. There are some excellent Nony reps, particularly on Othello, of him using reavers PvZ. Personally I'm not very good with them but they shouldn't be dismissed.
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Norway28669 Posts
oh reavers are awesome when used correctly
extremely few people can storm and use reavers correctly in the same battle
kind of how when people go sair reaver they normally control the reavers until they get dweb, after they get dweb the reavers mostly get to shoot freely because throwing web is more important
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This I think is a pretty decent idea, since the usually combination of mass zeals+goons and templar-->Archon always seems to be lacking for me against ultraling, the lings always move to fast for me to storm, and the ultras draw fire like crazy. Maelstrom looks like a great solution to me, it freezes units in place, allowing them to be stormed and blocking units behind them.
Not too sure about the reavers though, since they are pretty hard to manage since you have to use shuttles to get any mobility out of them and you have to rebuild scarabs all the time. I supposed for huge battles they would be useful, or perhaps drop defense.
Actually as drop defense I think a reaver, dark archon combo would be great later game. Keep your reaver close to your nexus and once the zerg comes in with his doom drops, just maelstrom his OL's and dropping units, then use the reaver and templar to clean it up.
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On September 20 2009 01:20 Johnranger-123 wrote:The Reaver damage upgrad is +25 damage each shot, with four reavers, one round is 500 damage compared to 400. If you have enough money to spare (e.g. you are mining from 3 bases) Then yeah I think it would be worth it. And Scarab attacks still works under darm swarm, Liquipedia is your friend! And DA is more effective, but harder to use then Reaver. Also Reaver and shutle harrasment is hard to deal with when you just have ultra ling
Well, a ultra only needs to take 400 dmg, so its still going to be one shot from four reavers, so unless you want to kill buildings really fast, this doesnt make sense. (And its bound to take like ONE OR TWO goonshots/zealotstabs, so dont talk about ultra armor here.)
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On September 20 2009 10:19 Catch]22 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2009 01:20 Johnranger-123 wrote:The Reaver damage upgrad is +25 damage each shot, with four reavers, one round is 500 damage compared to 400. If you have enough money to spare (e.g. you are mining from 3 bases) Then yeah I think it would be worth it. And Scarab attacks still works under darm swarm, Liquipedia is your friend! And DA is more effective, but harder to use then Reaver. Also Reaver and shutle harrasment is hard to deal with when you just have ultra ling Well, a ultra only needs to take 400 dmg, so its still going to be one shot from four reavers, so unless you want to kill buildings really fast, this doesnt make sense. (And its bound to take like ONE OR TWO goonshots/zealotstabs, so dont talk about ultra armor here.)
The reavers are not so much to deal damage to the ultras as the splash damage from the attacks against the Ultras should be doing alot of damage to the lings. So imagine that the zerg has 6 ultras and like 30 cracklings, those scarab shots do some decent damage against the ultras, but more importantly to the lings around them. This splash damage is incredibly useful since ultras recieve targetting priority, so in this case 4 reavers will kill off maybe 1 ultra before the ultaling army can engage, the splash damage kills off like 8-12 lings which are the main damage dealers. So the zealots can then hold against 2/3 the amount of heavy damage dealing units. The next round of scarabs kills another ultra and say 6-8 lings, now the advantage is definitely the toss's against an army that cost about the same.
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Norway28669 Posts
if the ultra takes two goonshots then it moves down from 4 to 3 hits with reaver upgrade..
splash is also affected.. you should basically always get reaver damage when you build reavers pvz with the intention to kill something else than drones.
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On September 20 2009 10:42 Traveler wrote:This splash damage is incredibly useful since ultras recieve targetting priority
I am fairly certain the ultras do not receive high targeting priority than zerglings or other fighting units, I will test this now unless someone else knows for sure?
Edit: test against a computer confirmed this, it might just seem like they target ultras because all the lings that get targeted die fast, and the attacking still going on is against ultras while the lucky lings aren't attacked.
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The reaver upgrade increases their damage but 1/4. Are theyre any upgrades that provide such a benefit? Zerglings get 1/5 of their damage. Marines 1/6.
Sounds pretty super to me.
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On September 20 2009 12:45 Rakanishu2 wrote:
The reaver upgrade increases their damage but 1/4. Are theyre any upgrades that provide such a benefit? Zerglings get 1/5 of their damage. Marines 1/6.
Sounds pretty super to me.
Goli air ups are 1/5 too (I think ground is 1/6 but it might be 1/12, can't remember, hate terran). Reaver is the best though, however you can only up it once while you can up goli ling and marine attack 3 times, and you can even up goli range too. In total its more like 3/5 for goli and ling and 1/2 for rines compared to 1/4 for reavers, if you follow me here lol...
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i really like the idea for this...
but all that army management.. managing storms, maelstroms AND reavers would take a lot of multi-tasking.. plus i think you would need like 5 gas.. i think a good map for this strategy woudl be like longinus for its 2 gas expos..
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EPT
