He might be only #7 in the PR right now, but from what I've seen from him recently, he's a strong Dark Horse to win this MSL. Not many people know this, but Calm is the zerg with the 2nd most wins behind Jaedong in the Proleague with ~40 wins. (he's just been shaded by Jaedong's domination) Since June, he is 10-3, taking down FlaSh (FlaSh has admitted that he's scared to play against Calm, according to the commentators), Mind, Sea, and Zero. It's not so much the record that leads me to believe he can take this OSL, though; it's his playstyle.
What characterizes Calm's play? I can think of Ballsy aggression and creative builds. But it's more a combination of the two, working together to create his greatest weapon: unpredictability. I believe Calm's strongest trait is that he forces open openings in the opponent's play. I don't think he has FlaSh's style of "I know what the other guy's going to do just by feeling it out" and try to abuse a hole in the opponent's play; Calm is different.
He literally rips apart openings in his opponents through 1) Ballsy builds 2) clever mindgame tactics that abuse the opponents' scouting 3) aggression with balls of steel. he attacks where the opponent is most uncomfortable at an uncomfortable timing, thereby disrupting the opponent's timing/overall plan for the game.
Exhibit A: Ballsy Builds
2 Base Hive for the Win? What?
Exhibit B: Mindgame Tactics that abuse opponents' scouting
what you see is not what it seems...
Exhibit C: Aggression with balls of steel
(watch from 7:00) Fuck your vultures FlaSh, I'm gonna rip you a new one. Be scared.. be very scared to play me..
(Watch from 9:30) All-in? I'll force an opening with mutas and make it happen
Calm never faces the metal ball head on but aggressively attacks forGG's base, trading units effectively as mech is weak in small numbers, as well as whittling down forGG's economy down to nothing in 2 waves of hydra attacks. The aggression forces forGG to head home TWICE before forGG could eventually take down Calm's natural. Oh by the way, he's got 2 more bases by that time, so it didn't matter at that point. Why go for hive tech when you can cripple the terran's economy by attacking?
Yes, most of these games are against terran. But he's also shown strong performance against Protoss. Some toss named yoon got his ass handed to him in this game:
Bottom line: Calm will win this MSL. I don't give a crap at who's still in the MSL. I BELIEVE!
You should have named it something different. Now you'll get flamed a lot. By claiming "Calm will Win this MSL" you've joined the sad group of people who predict an unlikely event just so they can claim to be a genius if they get lucky. (Before someone calls me out; I'm aware I'm in this group ;p)
I really like your analysis though. Calm IS a really smart player, respect to him.
Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.
He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.
also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said
edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did
I dont think we really need a new face right now as a champion, this will make the picture even more chaotic. I prefer Jaedong to win everything than Yarnc and Calm or smth like that, although canata for a double will be cool as fuck
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote: Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.
He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.
also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said
edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did
I agree with your point about Calm getting smashed when he faces a top player, personally I think Forgg will take the next 2 games, but then you went all crazy and starting saying flash is worse than Effort and Fantasy...so umm dont post while high.
But for me Calm is like luxury+yarnc+brains, but really I dont think hes strong enough to get through a bo5 vs strong competition.
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote: Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.
He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.
also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said
edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did
If you're trying to advertise Calm's skills, I think you probably shouldn't even mention his game against Flash. He played like garbage...I mean, how can you scout a walled in Terran on Outsider and not build a sunken? The only reason he won that game is because Flash handed it to him on a silver platter.
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote: Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.
He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.
also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said
edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did
I agree with your point about Calm getting smashed when he faces a top player, personally I think Forgg will take the next 2 games, but then you went all crazy and starting saying flash is worse than Effort and Fantasy...so umm dont post while high.
But for me Calm is like luxury+yarnc+brains, but really I dont think hes strong enough to get through a bo5 vs strong competition.
Flash is fresh off of a 3 game losing streak to Kal, Calm, and Kwanro. He is only 5-5 in his last ten games. He lost to fucking BACKHO.
Fantasy on the other hand is fresh off a 10 game winning streak, including victories over Kal, Jangbi, Leta, guemchi(who is actually doing very well otherwise i wouldn't include him) and Backho(who flash couldnt beat lololo)
Effort is fucking crazy recently, nuff said.
Wake up and smell the roses. Flash isn't what he used to be. He is the next sea.
Edit: but I think he will actually beat forgg, its sad since I'm a huge fan of oov 2.0, but he just never lived up to his series against JD.
On July 12 2009 01:34 TwoStep wrote: I wouldn't mind Calm winning the MSL. Who would he play in the Ro8 assuming the higher seeds win? Flash or Bisu, I think.
I actually think Calm is a really strong player, on par with Effort possibly. He just hasn't his streak like Effort yet but I think he will. But Fantasy or JD will stop Calm from this MSL for sure.
In fact i'm rooting for Effot, Jaedong Calm and Zero... it's so hard to make a choise... they are all playing so well. Calm stategic play is very entertaining. I just hope that it doesn't end with a zvsz final.
I've been a fan of and following Calm for a while now, I really love watching the way he plays. That said, I'm still a little apprehensive about how he's going to go in individual leagues, given the huge amount of talent he's up against, but he definitely has a shot and I'd be glad to see him win. He's pretty underrated IMO.
On July 12 2009 01:28 joohyunee wrote: He might be only #7 in the PR right now, but from what I've seen from him recently, he's a strong Dark Horse to win this MSL. Not many people know this, but Calm is the zerg with the 2nd most wins behind Jaedong in the Proleague with ~40 wins. (he's just been shaded by Jaedong's domination) Since June, he is 10-3, taking down Flash (FlaSh has admitted that he's scared to play against Calm, according to the commentators), Mind, Sea, and ZerO. It's not so much the record that leads me to believe he can take this OSL, though; it's his playstyle.
What characterizes Calm's play? I can think of Ballsy aggression and creative builds. But it's more a combination of the two, working together to create his greatest weapon: unpredictability(hint: ballsy builds). I believe Calm's strongest trait is that he forces open openings in the opponent's play. I don't think he has Flash's style of "I know what the other guy's going to do just by feeling it out" and try to abuse a hole in the opponent's play; Calm is different.
He literally rips apart openings in his opponents through 1) Ballsy builds (told you!) 2) clever mindgame tactics that abuse the opponents' scouting 3) aggression with balls of steel. he attacks where the opponent is most uncomfortable at an uncomfortable timing, thereby disrupting the opponent's timing/overall plan for the game.
I see what you did there.
Calm definitely has ballsy builds, creative aggression, and uncomfortably uncomfortable timing in uncomfortable situations, but I just don't see the raw skill needed to win quite yet. Calm looks like a perennial Top 8 finisher, but builds will only get you so far, against incredible talents like JD, Bisu, Fantasy, Flash, and EffOrt, I see Calm coming just short this year.
Calm is like his teammate Kal. He's in the top 6 of his race, but he's not the best. Also, he seems to fly under the radar in a similar fashion to Kal. I have to be honest, I haven't watched many of his games, I prefer to the unheeded aggression of Kwanro.
Also, it seems like we could be reaching a golden age for zerg players.
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote: Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.
He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.
also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said
edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did
I agree with your point about Calm getting smashed when he faces a top player, personally I think Forgg will take the next 2 games, but then you went all crazy and starting saying flash is worse than Effort and Fantasy...so umm dont post while high.
But for me Calm is like luxury+yarnc+brains, but really I dont think hes strong enough to get through a bo5 vs strong competition.
Flash is fresh off of a 3 game losing streak to Kal, Calm, and Kwanro. He is only 5-5 in his last ten games. He lost to fucking BACKHO.
Fantasy on the other hand is fresh off a 10 game winning streak, including victories over Kal, Jangbi, Leta, guemchi(who is actually doing very well otherwise i wouldn't include him) and Backho(who flash couldnt beat lololo)
Effort is fucking crazy recently, nuff said.
Wake up and smell the roses. Flash isn't what he used to be. He is the next sea.
Edit: but I think he will actually beat forgg, its sad since I'm a huge fan of oov 2.0, but he just never lived up to his series against JD.
Lol, so flash gets rushed for his style a few times and all of a sudden he sucks? Please. Did you watch the games or just look at the results. Flash is still better than effort and fantasy, Im not even gonna use the game between Flash and effort as supporing evidence because that was just beyond dumb, Im still rather upset effort didnt defend that thus causing a chain of events which leads to jd vs zero in ro8, but I digress Flash is stronger than Fanatsy in every matchup except TvP, which is close but fantasy has alot more pinache and is definitely more exciting. Effort is damn good but hes definitely not better than Flash yet.
edit: Wow If zero wins he probably fights Flash in ro8? Jesus how lame is that.
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote: Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.
He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.
also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said
edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did
I agree with your point about Calm getting smashed when he faces a top player, personally I think Forgg will take the next 2 games, but then you went all crazy and starting saying flash is worse than Effort and Fantasy...so umm dont post while high.
But for me Calm is like luxury+yarnc+brains, but really I dont think hes strong enough to get through a bo5 vs strong competition.
Flash is fresh off of a 3 game losing streak to Kal, Calm, and Kwanro. He is only 5-5 in his last ten games. He lost to fucking BACKHO.
Fantasy on the other hand is fresh off a 10 game winning streak, including victories over Kal, Jangbi, Leta, guemchi(who is actually doing very well otherwise i wouldn't include him) and Backho(who flash couldnt beat lololo)
Effort is fucking crazy recently, nuff said.
Wake up and smell the roses. Flash isn't what he used to be. He is the next sea.
Edit: but I think he will actually beat forgg, its sad since I'm a huge fan of oov 2.0, but he just never lived up to his series against JD.
Lol, so flash gets rushed for his style a few times and all of a sudden he sucks? Please. Did you watch the games or just look at the results. Flash is still better than effort and fantasy, Im not even gonna use the game between Flash and effort as supporing evidence because that was just beyond dumb, Im still rather upset effort didnt defend that thus causing a chain of events which leads to jd vs zero in ro8, but I digress Flash is stronger than Fanatsy in every matchup except TvP, which is close but fantasy has alot more pinache and is definitely more exciting. Effort is damn good but hes definitely not better than Flash yet.
edit: Wow If zero wins he probably fights Flash in ro8? Jesus how lame is that.
Flash has always been getting rushed because his style is too greedy.
You can't say "OMG he got cheesed a bunch of times it doesn't count!!!!" becuase cheesing flash has always been a huge weakness of his. He just doesn't have the monster game he used to in order to back it up
Yes I did watch the games, Flash needs to be more like Jaedong. Jaedong is so strong against cheese. Flash isn't S class anymore. He isn't better than effort or fantasy and hasn't been winning more than effort or fantasy.
Edit: actually what the fuck are you saying, kwanro was brilliant in his game. he just outplayed flash. flash even scouted the early extractor. that was completely flash's fault. you would think that he would have learned about 2 hatch builds by now, but apparently he didnt.
Flash's record in past months is actually WORSE than both of those players.
If Flash was nearly as good as he used to be we wouldn't even be having his conversation. If you are even needing to argue that flash is still on the same level as Jaedong or Bisu you are obviously wrong already. There is a reason that Flash is lower on PR than both effort and fantasy -- they are playing better than he is right now.
Flash is the current king of TvT. But he's only a cut above the other best TvT players... not enough that they can't catch up. Clearly S-class.
In both non-mirrors, he loses almost every game he plays against players who're powerful in the matchup, and wins almost every game against players who aren't. This is (to me) a form of A-class play.
I'd allow an S-class player one weak matchup, but not two. By his performance over the past few months, Flash is no longer S-class.
Calm was always known for using weird builds. The thing is, he just isn't at the level where Jaedong and Effort are at. Not to mention, if Calm meets Jaedong or Effort he will get massacred.
On July 12 2009 01:34 TwoStep wrote: I wouldn't mind Calm winning the MSL. Who would he play in the Ro8 assuming the higher seeds win? Flash or Bisu, I think.
Lol comparison for past few months I.E since proleague started back up.
Fantasy TvP 11-2 (Losses to Pure and Bisu) Flash TvP 12-5 (Losses to Shuttle (in a bo3), Stork, Kal, Jangbi, and Backho)
Fantasy TvZ (note he barely plays it) 6-5 (3x Loses to Big Dong, Hogil, and Calm Flash TvZ 8-6 ( other than the 4 recent loses (JD, Yarnc, Kwanro, Calm) the other 2 were vs effort on HBR and Oversky on Battle Royale lol)
Flash TvT 11-2 (Currently on 10 game streak) Loses to Hiya and Skyhigh. Fantasy TvT 6-3 ( Loses to Flash, Lomo, and Skyhigh)
In summary, Flash hasnt beaten a good protoss in quite awhile and has lost to every dragon hes played recently. Fantasy's TvZ record is definitely not strong enough to make a case over Flash, neither is his TvT.
In short I could careless about what one arbitrarily thinks is a S-class player, but looking at the facts you cant make a case for Fantasy being better at Flash other than at TvP, which is by far Fantasy's best MU, and the matchup he plays the most, clearly there is a reason why SKT1 sends him out hoping to get a match vs Toss. So if Flash isnt S-Class then no terran is.
Also about Jaedong being anti cheeseble, Light just "cheesed" him, and Skyhigh makes a fool out him with his cheeses,(yes I know JD beats him straight up), the last cheese that was thwarted by JD that I can recall was vs jjonga which I remember jjonga just not following up properly, though Id have to rewatch to be sure. But If you wanna talk anti cheese Zero, recently would be a better example stopping multiple cheeses from gogo and Skyhigh.
On July 12 2009 05:04 mog87 wrote: the last cheese that was thwarted by JD that I can recall was vs jjonga which I remember jjonga just not following up properly, though Id have to rewatch to be sure.
I still believe any player other than Jaedong would've lost to that
I tried the same cheese on my next PvZ on Heartbreak Ridge. I barely won and never tried it again though
On July 12 2009 04:40 koreasilver wrote: Calm was always known for using weird builds. The thing is, he just isn't at the level where Jaedong and Effort are at. Not to mention, if Calm meets Jaedong or Effort he will get massacred.
Calm can beat Effort probably, JD is the pillar of ZvZ, everyone else is fallible. Upper Lvl ZvZers like Effort,Zero, Calm can all beat each other, Its pretty hard to call out a favorite.
On July 12 2009 01:34 TwoStep wrote: I wouldn't mind Calm winning the MSL. Who would he play in the Ro8 assuming the higher seeds win? Flash or Bisu, I think.
On July 12 2009 01:34 TwoStep wrote: I wouldn't mind Calm winning the MSL. Who would he play in the Ro8 assuming the higher seeds win? Flash or Bisu, I think.
I'm really liking Calm's style. I think this season (and next Starleague season) he'll get a chance to show what he's made of. Same goes for Effort.
Zerg is looking pretty cool these days, with JD, Effort, Calm, Zero all playing solid, and guys like Yarnc, by.hero, the corpse formerly known as Luxury, and July all capable of taking a game from almost anyone.
As for people talking Fantasy vs Flash - let's give it a rest for now. Fantasy is better than Flash in Starleagues (which is what really counts) at the moment. In fairness to Flash, he will continue to have the highest winning percentage out of all Terrans for a long, long time. Flash is younger right now than JD was when he even won his first Starleague, so to say he's done for is a bit overly dramatic, to say the least.
Awesome highlights of Calm vs. Mind. Sick, aggressive muta micro just tore apart Mind's marines when they were poorly positioned in a line next to his tanks.
Also, thanks for highlighting in your post where to start watching in YouTube. I hate going through the whole VOD to get to the "good part".
Calm's been choking since the dawn of time, maybe not as bad as midas, but pretty damn bad. He has skills, and sometimes kicks ass in PL, but really cant step it up in SL's
On July 12 2009 05:04 mog87 wrote: Lol comparison for past few months I.E since proleague started back up.
Fantasy TvP 11-2 (Losses to Pure and Bisu) Flash TvP 12-5 (Losses to Shuttle (in a bo3), Stork, Kal, Jangbi, and Backho)
Fantasy TvZ (note he barely plays it) 6-5 (3x Loses to Big Dong, Hogil, and Calm Flash TvZ 8-6 ( other than the 4 recent loses (JD, Yarnc, Kwanro, Calm) the other 2 were vs effort on HBR and Oversky on Battle Royale lol)
Flash TvT 11-2 (Currently on 10 game streak) Loses to Hiya and Skyhigh. Fantasy TvT 6-3 ( Loses to Flash, Lomo, and Skyhigh)
In summary, Flash hasnt beaten a good protoss in quite awhile and has lost to every dragon hes played recently. Fantasy's TvZ record is definitely not strong enough to make a case over Flash, neither is his TvT.
In short I could careless about what one arbitrarily thinks is a S-class player, but looking at the facts you cant make a case for Fantasy being better at Flash other than at TvP, which is by far Fantasy's best MU, and the matchup he plays the most, clearly there is a reason why SKT1 sends him out hoping to get a match vs Toss. So if Flash isnt S-Class then no terran is.
Also about Jaedong being anti cheeseble, Light just "cheesed" him, and Skyhigh makes a fool out him with his cheeses,(yes I know JD beats him straight up), the last cheese that was thwarted by JD that I can recall was vs jjonga which I remember jjonga just not following up properly, though Id have to rewatch to be sure. But If you wanna talk anti cheese Zero, recently would be a better example stopping multiple cheeses from gogo and Skyhigh.
Zero gets cheesed in ZvZ all the time. :p Hidden lings > Zero
On July 12 2009 05:04 mog87 wrote: Lol comparison for past few months I.E since proleague started back up.
Fantasy TvP 11-2 (Losses to Pure and Bisu) Flash TvP 12-5 (Losses to Shuttle (in a bo3), Stork, Kal, Jangbi, and Backho)
Fantasy TvZ (note he barely plays it) 6-5 (3x Loses to Big Dong, Hogil, and Calm Flash TvZ 8-6 ( other than the 4 recent loses (JD, Yarnc, Kwanro, Calm) the other 2 were vs effort on HBR and Oversky on Battle Royale lol)
Flash TvT 11-2 (Currently on 10 game streak) Loses to Hiya and Skyhigh. Fantasy TvT 6-3 ( Loses to Flash, Lomo, and Skyhigh)
In summary, Flash hasnt beaten a good protoss in quite awhile and has lost to every dragon hes played recently. Fantasy's TvZ record is definitely not strong enough to make a case over Flash, neither is his TvT.
In short I could careless about what one arbitrarily thinks is a S-class player, but looking at the facts you cant make a case for Fantasy being better at Flash other than at TvP, which is by far Fantasy's best MU, and the matchup he plays the most, clearly there is a reason why SKT1 sends him out hoping to get a match vs Toss. So if Flash isnt S-Class then no terran is.
Also about Jaedong being anti cheeseble, Light just "cheesed" him, and Skyhigh makes a fool out him with his cheeses,(yes I know JD beats him straight up), the last cheese that was thwarted by JD that I can recall was vs jjonga which I remember jjonga just not following up properly, though Id have to rewatch to be sure. But If you wanna talk anti cheese Zero, recently would be a better example stopping multiple cheeses from gogo and Skyhigh.
Zero gets cheesed in ZvZ all the time. :p Hidden lings > Zero
I dunno if thats "chese" but he sure gets ling gayed alot, though its understandable who wants to Muta battle that kid?
At best, I would say that Calm is where Effort was maybe 6 months ago. He still needs some time in the forge, some tempering before he can start really doing things in the individuals.
On July 12 2009 04:35 Severedevil wrote: Flash is the current king of TvT. But he's only a cut above the other best TvT players... not enough that they can't catch up. Clearly S-class.
In both non-mirrors, he loses almost every game he plays against players who're powerful in the matchup, and wins almost every game against players who aren't. This is (to me) a form of A-class play.
I'd allow an S-class player one weak matchup, but not two. By his performance over the past few months, Flash is no longer S-class.
That's bs man.. would you consider fantasy to be S-class?
fantasy TvP is S-class, everyone agrees, no questions asked
what about his TvZ? No. what about his TvT? maybe.
So by your reasoning, 1 S-class matchup, and 2 A-class matchups means that the player is A-class, not S-class?
On July 12 2009 04:40 koreasilver wrote: Calm was always known for using weird builds. The thing is, he just isn't at the level where Jaedong and Effort are at. Not to mention, if Calm meets Jaedong or Effort he will get massacred.
Calm can beat Effort probably, JD is the pillar of ZvZ, everyone else is fallible. Upper Lvl ZvZers like Effort,Zero, Calm can all beat each other, Its pretty hard to call out a favorite.
Calm hasn't established himself as a upper-level ZvZ. ZerO is at Effort's level, but not all the time.
On July 12 2009 02:09 AzureEye wrote: I actually think Calm is a really strong player, on par with Effort possibly. He just hasn't his streak like Effort yet but I think he will. But Fantasy or JD will stop Calm from this MSL for sure.
On July 12 2009 02:01 Foucault wrote: Any zerg that rules in ZvT and is good at ZvZ will easily become a monster in ZvP because the MU is easier than the other two.
Hes a very smart player. Wouldn't be surprised seeing him in a semi or quarter. But I don't think he has the raw mechanics required to win a bo5 against a S-Class player...however looking at Julys latest OSL anyone can win if they play smart
As a zerg palyer and an STX Soul fan i've been a calm/july fan for along time now. Calm is so strong in proleague i've always said he's one of the best palyers to not have a title. people always tell me calm sucks, i hope calm can prove them wrong!!
On July 12 2009 11:58 Terranfan wrote: I'm sorry, flash is just on a flash slump (Which means a 10 game streak in one matchup and 50% which is not terrible in the last ten gams). Calm will NOT beat JD or bisu. JD's ZvZ is 80%. Bisu, vs Zerg is 65%. Calm's Overall is 54%, his Vs z is 53% and his Vs P is 56%. He is a B+ player. He is above average but he ain't anywhere near S-class. Also despite ZvP being his best machup it's also the one where he has played the least games. No way will calm win the MSL. No. Just No.
Bisu(and free in 1 game in october) is the only Protoss to beat Calm since the start of this PL season. Calm is an STX zerg and like any STX Zerg he fucking destroys Protoss players. Since October of 2008 he has gone 14-5 vs Protoss or ~74%. You are looking too much into his career stats. He's been around for a while true, but since October of last year Calm has been on fire. In 2009 so far he has a 68.9% winning ratio.
Although as we have seen again and again with Leta and Effort, that doesn't mean shit till you start to compete in leagues. And this is the 1st time Calm has gone past the Ro32 in a league. I feel he has a strong chance vs anyone except for Jaedong (as no zerg does :\). In a Bo5 I feel that Calm can take down Bisu.
I really love watching Calm play, he is currently my favorite player to watch right now, especially with the few appearances that July has been making lately, Calm has really taken the torch as the most creative/fun-to-watch Zerg lately.
On July 12 2009 02:01 Foucault wrote: Any zerg that rules in ZvT and is good at ZvZ will easily become a monster in ZvP because the MU is easier than the other two.
yarnc??
lol yeah pretty silly comment from foucault anyways...
Anyways I don't think Calm's ZvP is the main problem but his ZvZ..
Doesn't even need to be JD, effort would take care of him ez as well.
On July 12 2009 11:58 Terranfan wrote: I'm sorry, flash is just on a flash slump (Which means a 10 game streak in one matchup and 50% which is not terrible in the last ten gams). Calm will NOT beat JD or bisu. JD's ZvZ is 80%. Bisu, vs Zerg is 65%. Calm's Overall is 54%, his Vs z is 53% and his Vs P is 56%. He is a B+ player. He is above average but he ain't anywhere near S-class. Also despite ZvP being his best machup it's also the one where he has played the least games. No way will calm win the MSL. No. Just No.
On July 12 2009 12:42 Marine50 wrote: Hes a very smart player. Wouldn't be surprised seeing him in a semi or quarter. But I don't think he has the raw mechanics required to win a bo5 against a S-Class player...however looking at Julys latest OSL anyone can win if they play smart
On July 12 2009 11:58 Terranfan wrote: I'm sorry, flash is just on a flash slump (Which means a 10 game streak in one matchup and 50% which is not terrible in the last ten gams). Calm will NOT beat JD or bisu. JD's ZvZ is 80%. Bisu, vs Zerg is 65%. Calm's Overall is 54%, his Vs z is 53% and his Vs P is 56%. He is a B+ player. He is above average but he ain't anywhere near S-class. Also despite ZvP being his best machup it's also the one where he has played the least games. No way will calm win the MSL. No. Just No.
On July 12 2009 11:58 Terranfan wrote: I'm sorry, flash is just on a flash slump (Which means a 10 game streak in one matchup and 50% which is not terrible in the last ten gams). Calm will NOT beat JD or bisu. JD's ZvZ is 80%. Bisu, vs Zerg is 65%. Calm's Overall is 54%, his Vs z is 53% and his Vs P is 56%. He is a B+ player. He is above average but he ain't anywhere near S-class. Also despite ZvP being his best machup it's also the one where he has played the least games. No way will calm win the MSL. No. Just No.
hahahaha
"I clearly know all I need to about a player's skill by their all time win record."
If your understanding of the game is so limited that all you process is win-loss statistics, take a look at this:
On July 09 2009 01:21 integral wrote: One thing I've been doing lately just out of my own curiosity is tracking how players have been performing over particular stretches of time during their career. It's pretty interesting to follow these trends and see how they coincide with the recent kespa and power ranks. Here are how notable players have been doing in 2009.
Calm's been my favorite player for a long time. Do I honestly think he's a favorite to win the MSL? No. He's up against the best talents to ever play Starcraft. I do, however, think he has a legitimate shot. Especially if he doesn't have to face Jaedong.
As great as Calm has been doing lately I don't think this season will be his. There's too much stiff Zerg competition left for him to battle through if he can get passed fOrGG, which is very likely.
There's definately been a huge improvement in his skill and it doesn't seem to be declining anytime soon. I can definately see a title in the lads future. It wouldn't be disapointing by any means if this were to come true.
On July 12 2009 11:58 Terranfan wrote: I'm sorry, flash is just on a flash slump (Which means a 10 game streak in one matchup and 50% which is not terrible in the last ten gams). Calm will NOT beat JD or bisu. JD's ZvZ is 80%. Bisu, vs Zerg is 65%. Calm's Overall is 54%, his Vs z is 53% and his Vs P is 56%. He is a B+ player. He is above average but he ain't anywhere near S-class. Also despite ZvP being his best machup it's also the one where he has played the least games. No way will calm win the MSL. No. Just No.
hahahaha
"I clearly know all I need to about a player's skill by their all time win record."
If your understanding of the game is so limited that all you process is win-loss statistics, take a look at this:
On July 09 2009 01:21 integral wrote: One thing I've been doing lately just out of my own curiosity is tracking how players have been performing over particular stretches of time during their career. It's pretty interesting to follow these trends and see how they coincide with the recent kespa and power ranks. Here are how notable players have been doing in 2009.
Calm's been my favorite player for a long time. Do I honestly think he's a favorite to win the MSL? No. He's up against the best talents to ever play Starcraft. I do, however, think he has a legitimate shot. Especially if he doesn't have to face Jaedong.
If Calm and Effort both win their Ro16 matches (likely), they'll be facing each other. GG
On July 12 2009 11:58 Terranfan wrote: I'm sorry, flash is just on a flash slump (Which means a 10 game streak in one matchup and 50% which is not terrible in the last ten gams). Calm will NOT beat JD or bisu. JD's ZvZ is 80%. Bisu, vs Zerg is 65%. Calm's Overall is 54%, his Vs z is 53% and his Vs P is 56%. He is a B+ player. He is above average but he ain't anywhere near S-class. Also despite ZvP being his best machup it's also the one where he has played the least games. No way will calm win the MSL. No. Just No.
hahahaha
"I clearly know all I need to about a player's skill by their all time win record."
If your understanding of the game is so limited that all you process is win-loss statistics, take a look at this:
On July 09 2009 01:21 integral wrote: One thing I've been doing lately just out of my own curiosity is tracking how players have been performing over particular stretches of time during their career. It's pretty interesting to follow these trends and see how they coincide with the recent kespa and power ranks. Here are how notable players have been doing in 2009.
Calm's been my favorite player for a long time. Do I honestly think he's a favorite to win the MSL? No. He's up against the best talents to ever play Starcraft. I do, however, think he has a legitimate shot. Especially if he doesn't have to face Jaedong.
If Calm and Effort both win their Ro16 matches (likely), they'll be facing each other. GG
On July 12 2009 11:58 Terranfan wrote: I'm sorry, flash is just on a flash slump (Which means a 10 game streak in one matchup and 50% which is not terrible in the last ten gams). Calm will NOT beat JD or bisu. JD's ZvZ is 80%. Bisu, vs Zerg is 65%. Calm's Overall is 54%, his Vs z is 53% and his Vs P is 56%. He is a B+ player. He is above average but he ain't anywhere near S-class. Also despite ZvP being his best machup it's also the one where he has played the least games. No way will calm win the MSL. No. Just No.
hahahaha
"I clearly know all I need to about a player's skill by their all time win record."
If your understanding of the game is so limited that all you process is win-loss statistics, take a look at this:
On July 09 2009 01:21 integral wrote: One thing I've been doing lately just out of my own curiosity is tracking how players have been performing over particular stretches of time during their career. It's pretty interesting to follow these trends and see how they coincide with the recent kespa and power ranks. Here are how notable players have been doing in 2009.
Calm's been my favorite player for a long time. Do I honestly think he's a favorite to win the MSL? No. He's up against the best talents to ever play Starcraft. I do, however, think he has a legitimate shot. Especially if he doesn't have to face Jaedong.
If Calm and Effort both win their Ro16 matches (likely), they'll be facing each other. GG
Isn't the Ro8 arranged by Kespa ranking? If so, they won't be likely to face each other next round...
On July 12 2009 11:58 Terranfan wrote: I'm sorry, flash is just on a flash slump (Which means a 10 game streak in one matchup and 50% which is not terrible in the last ten gams). Calm will NOT beat JD or bisu. JD's ZvZ is 80%. Bisu, vs Zerg is 65%. Calm's Overall is 54%, his Vs z is 53% and his Vs P is 56%. He is a B+ player. He is above average but he ain't anywhere near S-class. Also despite ZvP being his best machup it's also the one where he has played the least games. No way will calm win the MSL. No. Just No.
hahahaha
"I clearly know all I need to about a player's skill by their all time win record."
If your understanding of the game is so limited that all you process is win-loss statistics, take a look at this:
On July 09 2009 01:21 integral wrote: One thing I've been doing lately just out of my own curiosity is tracking how players have been performing over particular stretches of time during their career. It's pretty interesting to follow these trends and see how they coincide with the recent kespa and power ranks. Here are how notable players have been doing in 2009.
Calm's been my favorite player for a long time. Do I honestly think he's a favorite to win the MSL? No. He's up against the best talents to ever play Starcraft. I do, however, think he has a legitimate shot. Especially if he doesn't have to face Jaedong.
If Calm and Effort both win their Ro16 matches (likely), they'll be facing each other. GG
Isn't the Ro8 arranged by Kespa ranking? If so, they won't be likely to face each other next round...
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote: Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.
He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.
also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said
edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did
I agree with your point about Calm getting smashed when he faces a top player, personally I think Forgg will take the next 2 games, but then you went all crazy and starting saying flash is worse than Effort and Fantasy...so umm dont post while high.
But for me Calm is like luxury+yarnc+brains, but really I dont think hes strong enough to get through a bo5 vs strong competition.
Flash is fresh off of a 3 game losing streak to Kal, Calm, and Kwanro. He is only 5-5 in his last ten games. He lost to fucking BACKHO.
Fantasy on the other hand is fresh off a 10 game winning streak, including victories over Kal, Jangbi, Leta, guemchi(who is actually doing very well otherwise i wouldn't include him) and Backho(who flash couldnt beat lololo)
Effort is fucking crazy recently, nuff said.
Wake up and smell the roses. Flash isn't what he used to be. He is the next sea.
Edit: but I think he will actually beat forgg, its sad since I'm a huge fan of oov 2.0, but he just never lived up to his series against JD.
NUFF SAID!!1!11!1! No but really..normally when you say something retarded like "nuff said" you at least stop typing afterwards..because after all..nuff has already been said.
Calm is finally comming into his own but I don't think hes a real contender yet. Creative/agressive builds will only get you so far because they rely on your opponent making mistakes. As the tourniment progresses your opponent is less and less likely to do so.
Yes flash is losing right now. But you talk about like hes total shit now and he still has 50 % win. You realize 50% win is GOOD for most people? Gives you an idea of just how insane flash is. Hell if ForGG hit 50% win I'm sure ktf would be thrilled. And comparing flash to sea is basically retarded. Especially when you go and talk about how youre a huge forgg fan right afterwards. You're aware that flash is much much much better than forgg right?
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote: Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.
He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.
also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said
edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did
I agree with your point about Calm getting smashed when he faces a top player, personally I think Forgg will take the next 2 games, but then you went all crazy and starting saying flash is worse than Effort and Fantasy...so umm dont post while high.
But for me Calm is like luxury+yarnc+brains, but really I dont think hes strong enough to get through a bo5 vs strong competition.
Flash is fresh off of a 3 game losing streak to Kal, Calm, and Kwanro. He is only 5-5 in his last ten games. He lost to fucking BACKHO.
Fantasy on the other hand is fresh off a 10 game winning streak, including victories over Kal, Jangbi, Leta, guemchi(who is actually doing very well otherwise i wouldn't include him) and Backho(who flash couldnt beat lololo)
Effort is fucking crazy recently, nuff said.
Wake up and smell the roses. Flash isn't what he used to be. He is the next sea.
Edit: but I think he will actually beat forgg, its sad since I'm a huge fan of oov 2.0, but he just never lived up to his series against JD.
NUFF SAID!!1!11!1! No but really..normally when you say something retarded like "nuff said" you at least stop typing afterwards..because after all..nuff has already been said.
Calm is finally comming into his own but I don't think hes a real contender yet. Creative/agressive builds will only get you so far because they rely on your opponent making mistakes. As the tourniment progresses your opponent is less and less likely to do so.
Yes flash is losing right now. But you talk about like hes total shit now and he still has 50 % win. You realize 50% win is GOOD for most people? Gives you an idea of just how insane flash is. Hell if ForGG hit 50% win I'm sure ktf would be thrilled. And comparing flash to sea is basically retarded. Especially when you go and talk about how youre a huge forgg fan right afterwards. You're aware that flash is much much much better than forgg right?
Notice how after saying nuff said about effort, I went on to a different tangent.
Way to call someone out in the most retarded way possible.
calm's chances at reaching the final got a whole lot worse with such a hard bracket for him (effort and JD). I'm still hoping he makes it through but it would be SO much easier if he were on the other side :\
Calm has really impressive play watch his match against FBH it was nice FBH was really lost in that game calm got into his head it was a buetifull game i became a fan that day
On July 30 2009 14:54 Yuma wrote: Calm has really impressive play watch his match against FBH it was nice FBH was really lost in that game calm got into his head it was a buetifull game i became a fan that day
thanks for making this. calm was my favorite player to watch this PL season. every game i watched him play was so informative and always broke the monotony of standard play in PL. Back then he still lost to most of the big names he came across and some of them even made him look foolish. But he persevered and now he is poised to really prove himself.
I can't believe he made it through effort so easily. The games didn't even make it to the muta stage, they were just outright bo wins... I thought effort would dispatch him easily, but now I fear that even Jaedong might lose to him...
I can't believe he made it through effort so easily. The games didn't even make it to the muta stage, they were just outright bo wins... I thought effort would dispatch him easily, but now I fear that even Jaedong might lose to him...
We will see. But it's weird. Honnestly today, Calm played really well but EffOrt played so bad. Really the match wasn't interesting to watch I think. Jaedong vs Canata was more exciting
On July 30 2009 22:21 Garnet wrote: Can Calm beat Bisu? NO.
People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won.
Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch.
So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won.
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won.
Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch.
So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won.
Effort was greedy, Calm anticipated this thus the 9 pool both games. Mind games Calm > Effort
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won.
Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch.
So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won.
Effort was greedy, Calm anticipated this thus the 9 pool both games. Mind games Calm > Effort
don't forget that game 1 was a completely straight-up win too.
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won.
Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch.
So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won.
The thing is, Calm wins a whole lot of games like this. At this stage, you can't call it luck. The guy is strategically brilliant. No, his mechanics aren't S-class, but he's proven again and again that they don't need to be to take down top players.
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won.
Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch.
So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won.
I guess July didn't deserve the Golden Mouse because of that drone drill, huh?
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won.
Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch.
So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won.
Sure he got unlucky with Calm's overlord scout the third game, but the game on Carthage? Come on. You usually shouldn't 12 hatch in ZvZ on a two player map, and no doubt EffOrt's win against great in just those circumstances was what made him confident he could get away with it, but the rush distance on Heartbreak Ridge is about the same as it is on Carthage and Calm is no fool. Calm's build choice wasn't impressive, but EffOrt's was stupid. The only time where a 12 hatch is really comfortable is on a 4 player large map, like Andromeda, and even then the only time to feel real safe is on cross spots.
What I'm trying to say is that these losses weren't luck, they were losses that EffOrt deserved for poor decision making.
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won.
Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch.
So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won.
I guess July didn't deserve the Golden Mouse because of that drone drill, huh?
He has a point. Although Calm advanced, I still think that Effort is a better ZvZ player than him, just as I think that Jaedong is better than Effort at ZvZ despite the results from Gom. He's totally right that calm won due to build order luck (as well as skill).
However, July's win was somewhat different because you could see how he was beating best down psychologically. July is a very micro oriented player and Best is a very macro oriented player and July used micro-based strategies (cheesy if you want to put it that way) to push Best off his game and he did it very well. There's always an element of luck in games, it's how you use that to your advantage that makes you a good player. Calm just got lucky, Effort could have went 12pool and won game 3, if only he made a different choice.
On July 31 2009 04:07 Arrian wrote:
Sure he got unlucky with Calm's overlord scout the third game, but the game on Carthage? Come on. You usually shouldn't 12 hatch in ZvZ on a two player map, and no doubt EffOrt's win against great in just those circumstances was what made him confident he could get away with it, but the rush distance on Heartbreak Ridge is longer than it is on Carthage. Calm's build choice wasn't impressive, but EffOrt's was stupid. The only time where a 12 hatch is really comfortable is on a 4 player large map, like Andromeda, and even then the only time to feel real safe is on cross spots.
What I'm trying to say is that these losses weren't luck, they were losses that EffOrt deserved for poor decision making.
This is very true, effort's decision to 12hatch on carthage was stupid, 12pool would have been a better move. It's not like it's heartbreak ridge where it takes lings forever to get across the map...
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won.
Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch.
So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won.
Effort is really likely to go 12 hatch. He does that a lot, and he also has had it work pretty well... You can imagine that Calm studied Effort's games and found it likely he would 12 hatch, so Calm decided to 9 pool to abuse him for that.
You can't exactly say it was blind luck, anyway...
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won.
Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch.
So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won.
No. I'm pretty sure Effort knew what he was doing when he 12 hatched two games in a row. He's not stupid. He's confident that he could fend off 9 pools with a 12 hatch build, and effectively at that (like vs great @ heartbreak ridge).
If anything, Effort got a bit cocky because of his recent successes with his 12 hatch 'build', and was stubborn enough to 12 hatch again in the 3rd set when he failed his 12 hatch in the 2nd (kind of like Flash and 14cc).
Effort is a fool... its a little sad that a Good player like him is such a fool... Calm played smarter and he won because of that... Props to him, he really deservers the spot on semifinals.
It was stupid to go 12hatch on a map like carthage though. 9pool doesn't auto-beat 12hatch on Heartbreak Ridge because it isn't straight across to your opponent's base, you have to take a round-about route to get there and lings from a 12hatch pop in time to defend the expo, although micro does play a role.
On carthage, you just have to go straight down pretty much and there's no ramp or anything where you can defend, so it was a horrible move for effort.
On July 31 2009 04:43 jinwoooooooo wrote: No. I'm pretty sure Effort knew what he was doing when he 12 hatched two games in a row. He's not stupid. He's confident that he could fend off 9 pools with a 12 hatch build, and effectively at that (like vs great @ heartbreak ridge).
eh i'm not so sure about that. i don't think you 12 hatch hoping your opponent 9 pools and feeling confident you can fend it off. its just how the build orders turned out and effort just happened to outplay great.
On July 31 2009 04:59 ghostWriter wrote: It was stupid to go 12hatch on a map like carthage though. 9pool doesn't auto-beat 12hatch on Heartbreak Ridge because it isn't straight across to your opponent's base, you have to take a round-about route to get there and lings from a 12hatch pop in time to defend the expo, although micro does play a role.
On carthage, you just have to go straight down pretty much and there's no ramp or anything where you can defend, so it was a horrible move for effort.
Meh Heartbreak and Carthage aren't THAT different ... Carthage is a little harder to block runby on and that was of course the problem.
Overall Effort's ZvZ style is really fun to watch but it does feel very dangerous and that finally caught up to him this time.
It was an unfortunate turn of events for Effort but he's only going to get better. Hopefully he learns his lessons ... I don't know if I can bear rooting for another Flash (jk, sort of =/)
I think this should have a spoiler tag added to it, i knew instantly that calm would have won with this thread being Edit: practicing for zvt rather than zvz was a good choice imo, jd still gonna get that golden mouse
On August 13 2009 19:59 [Silverflame] wrote: I think it is great that there are players who are full of true happiness ... like Calm and his tears of victory^^
On August 13 2009 20:07 Plexa wrote: I'll change the title back in a day or two - those who did not see Jaedong get destroyed deserve to have the pleasure unspoiled
All I can say is that Calm played really well in this MSL and I hope he can keep it up in future leagues. I honestly didn't expect him to win vs Jaedong (a zvz god), so Calm beating Jaedong really earned my respect for this guy.
I've been a Calm fan for a few months now, ever since I started noticing some really interesting plays from him (hiding extra lings vs ZerO was the big one that really made me start following him -- since then he's become my favourite zerg). It was pretty clear that his ability to try something new and exciting rather than just copy what works for other people was going to lead to him becoming one of the top players. Looks like he's just about there now, after 3-0'ing EffOrt and beating Jaedong in a bo5!
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote: Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.
He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.
also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said
edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did
Hehe.. where is this guy? I wonder if he watched the games today
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote: Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.
He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.
also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said
edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did
Hehe.. where is this guy? I wonder if he watched the games today
On August 14 2009 02:08 Showtime! wrote: Did you actually just say that? o.O
JulyZerg comes to mind.
Well I did say "while on STX," which means that JulyZerg who has won many things in the past doesn't count. Did he win the Golden Mouse while on STX? I can't remember.
On August 14 2009 02:08 Showtime! wrote: Did you actually just say that? o.O
JulyZerg comes to mind.
Well I did say "while on STX," which means that JulyZerg who has won many things in the past doesn't count. Did he win the Golden Mouse while on STX? I can't remember.
July won the golden mouse while on STX, i know that much. Whether anyone else has won something I don't know.
On August 14 2009 02:08 Showtime! wrote: Did you actually just say that? o.O
JulyZerg comes to mind.
Well I did say "while on STX," which means that JulyZerg who has won many things in the past doesn't count. Did he win the Golden Mouse while on STX? I can't remember.
July won the golden mouse while on STX, i know that much. Whether anyone else has won something I don't know.
Okay. That wasn't long after his transfer though. I think no player like Calm who has been on STX from the start has ever won anything.
On August 14 2009 02:08 Showtime! wrote: Did you actually just say that? o.O
JulyZerg comes to mind.
Well I did say "while on STX," which means that JulyZerg who has won many things in the past doesn't count. Did he win the Golden Mouse while on STX? I can't remember.
July won the golden mouse while on STX, i know that much. Whether anyone else has won something I don't know.
Okay. That wasn't long after his transfer though. I think no player like Calm who has been on STX from the start has ever won anything.
I think Hwasin came in first for WCG once, but that's all I can think of.
On August 14 2009 02:08 Showtime! wrote: Did you actually just say that? o.O
JulyZerg comes to mind.
Well I did say "while on STX," which means that JulyZerg who has won many things in the past doesn't count. Did he win the Golden Mouse while on STX? I can't remember.
July won the golden mouse while on STX, i know that much. Whether anyone else has won something I don't know.
Okay. That wasn't long after his transfer though. I think no player like Calm who has been on STX from the start has ever won anything.
Hwasin won WCG Korea 2007 (but never won a Starleague). Kal reached the finals of GOMTV MSL S4 (but lost to JD). So yeah, if Calm wins he'll be the 1st person who grew up in STX to win a Starleague.
On August 14 2009 02:08 Showtime! wrote: Did you actually just say that? o.O
JulyZerg comes to mind.
Well I did say "while on STX," which means that JulyZerg who has won many things in the past doesn't count. Did he win the Golden Mouse while on STX? I can't remember.
July won the golden mouse while on STX, i know that much. Whether anyone else has won something I don't know.
Okay. That wasn't long after his transfer though. I think no player like Calm who has been on STX from the start has ever won anything.
I think Hwasin came in first for WCG once, but that's all I can think of.
Somehow this new aggressive terran builds is working well for Calm. Aggressive style < more aggressive style. I still feel that Calm is not tested well enough vs Protoss.
On August 14 2009 02:29 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Somehow this new aggressive terran builds is working well for Calm. Aggressive style < more aggressive style. I still feel that Calm is not tested well enough vs Protoss.
You mean ZvT builds?
And Calm doesn't need to be tested vs. Protoss for this MSL, that's for sure.
On August 14 2009 02:29 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Somehow this new aggressive terran builds is working well for Calm. Aggressive style < more aggressive style. I still feel that Calm is not tested well enough vs Protoss.
until this MSL started I always assumed ZvP is by far his best match-up. It would of been nice if he got to prove it vs Bisu in the final (making a sorta "perfect" run in having to beat top players in every race to win). His ZvP stats are still totally awesome this year with his only "un-excusable" lose this year was to JangBi in PL.
On August 14 2009 02:29 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Somehow this new aggressive terran builds is working well for Calm. Aggressive style < more aggressive style. I still feel that Calm is not tested well enough vs Protoss.
until this MSL started I always assumed ZvP is by far his best match-up. It would of been nice if he got to prove it vs Bisu in the final (making a sorta "perfect" run in having to beat top players in every race to win). His ZvP stats are still totally awesome this year with his only "un-excusable" lose this year was to JangBi in PL.
I would love to see a Calm vs. Bisu match, but I still think Jaedong is a better match for Bisu (despite this recent series and Jaedong's recent losses). Calm is really exciting for me right now though, love following his games and seeing him take down giant after giant.
EDIT: Although I want Iris to win, I think Calm has this MSL. Calm vs. Iris finals would be sick, hopefully/probably 3-2 or 3-1 for Calm.
On August 14 2009 02:29 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Somehow this new aggressive terran builds is working well for Calm. Aggressive style < more aggressive style. I still feel that Calm is not tested well enough vs Protoss.
You mean ZvT builds?
And Calm doesn't need to be tested vs. Protoss for this MSL, that's for sure.
Yeah ZvT builds he made are so well fitted to todays aggressive Terran builds.
On July 12 2009 01:40 Fontong wrote: Haha no way. I'm not even a Jaedong fan, but even then I think that Calm would get flattened against JD. Not to mention Bisu, and likely fantasy as well.
He really doesn't have a good list of victories against players that are actually good. Sure he beat Flash, but Flash doesn't really deserve to be up there with Jaedong, Bisu, Effort, or even Fantasy(lol i that guy annoys me) at this point. Calm is going to just get smashed when he plays an actual S class player.
also calm vs darkelf on python nuff said
edit: plus all you did was make a list of gimmicky builds that he did
Hehe.. where is this guy? I wonder if he watched the games today
I'm glad Calm won...
That way fanboys can cry. Crying fanboys > me being wrong
On August 14 2009 02:29 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Somehow this new aggressive terran builds is working well for Calm. Aggressive style < more aggressive style. I still feel that Calm is not tested well enough vs Protoss.
You mean ZvT builds?
And Calm doesn't need to be tested vs. Protoss for this MSL, that's for sure.
Yeah ZvT builds he made are so well fitted to todays aggressive Terran builds.
Don't aggressive builds for terran counter aggressive builds for zerg? Like 1 base terran vs 1 base Zerg. Even 1 base terran vs 2 hatch zerg low econ.
On August 14 2009 05:00 Hittegods wrote: The builds he used today definately added some flair to ZvZ, at least for me. Almost revolutionary, considering how ridiculously tight ZvZ is.
Yes, I think he may be shifting the paradigm to a more aggressive ZvZ style. +1 mutas, overpool>12 pool, this is very exciting.
On August 14 2009 05:00 Hittegods wrote: The builds he used today definately added some flair to ZvZ, at least for me. Almost revolutionary, considering how ridiculously tight ZvZ is.
How were they revolutionary? The only tangible and conspicuous difference was the muta +1 attack, which isn't really revolutionary at all because the games in which Calm went +1 attack, he would have won without it.
From what I remember, on Outsider, Jaedong failed his 9pool aggression against gaspool, so he lost. Nothing new there. Gaspool is "supposed to" beat 9pool. If your 9pool doesn't do enough damage and both players go mutas, the gaspool player will pump so many mutas it's not even comparable. Jaedong did what any smart Zerg would do, but failed in execution unfortunately.
On Heartbreak, Jaedong went 12pool expo against 9pool aggression and was damaged by it. He lost the game when he had to drone drill to save his main. Nothing new there either. If 9pool doesn't do damage against 12pool expo, 9pool is "supposed to" lose. Calm did what every smart Zerg going 9pool against 12pool expo would have done. The hiding lings trick was definitely extra-smart though.
EDIT: Before you flame me for taking away Calm's win, I want to say that I'm not trying to take away Calm's win. Not many Zergs know how to play right against Jaedong and clearly, Calm did the best responses to Jaedong's mistakes. Beating Jaedong was very smart. I'm just saying that what Calm is not the level of "revolutionary". It's just solid ZvZ play that we would have instead expected from Jaedong.
It's a shame how you have to add that disclaimer before five people post "you're just coming up with excuses for JD's losses and not giving Calm any credit."
But yeah, I didn't see anything really revolutionary in those games. And +1 attack is generally considered to be not as good as +1 carapace; although attack is slightly cheaper +1 carapace mutas beat +1 attack mutas, so I find it strange that Calm upgraded attack.
On August 14 2009 08:22 QuakerOats wrote: It's a shame how you have to add that disclaimer before five people post "you're just coming up with excuses for JD's losses and not giving Calm any credit."
But yeah, I didn't see anything really revolutionary in those games. And +1 attack is generally considered to be not as good as +1 carapace; although attack is slightly cheaper +1 carapace mutas beat +1 attack mutas, so I find it strange that Calm upgraded attack.
On August 14 2009 08:22 QuakerOats wrote: It's a shame how you have to add that disclaimer before five people post "you're just coming up with excuses for JD's losses and not giving Calm any credit."
But yeah, I didn't see anything really revolutionary in those games. And +1 attack is generally considered to be not as good as +1 carapace; although attack is slightly cheaper +1 carapace mutas beat +1 attack mutas, so I find it strange that Calm upgraded attack.
+1 attack is better vs scourge-heavy armies.
doesn't +1 attack come out faster than +1 defense? and its also 50/50 cheaper
wanted to give this thread another bump, 3 more wins and Calm is the MSL champion!
I'm so psyched that calm is in the finals. He defied all odds and came through the 2 toughest zvzers in the world in his worst matchup. I think it would of been much better if calm coulda played iris or bisu in the final to help prove his worthiness, but if calm wins I think its undeniable that he is a new dominate zerg on the scene right up there with jaedong.
Also if calm wins, he will be the 1st player who came from stx to win a starleague. it will be history made, a team's years and years of growth and hard work finally coming to fruition.
Calm has gained so much momentum in this league, and I hope it's just the beginning.
I would say "Well I'll be damned..", but his opponent ended up being Kwanro instead of Bisu/Iris/Fantasy/Flash etc, so this isn't as surprising as it should be..
On August 30 2009 17:11 ArvickHero wrote: I would say "Well I'll be damned..", but his opponent ended up being Kwanro instead of Bisu/Iris/Fantasy/Flash etc, so this isn't as surprising as it should be..
.....he had to beat Jaedong in the semi's to get here.
On August 30 2009 18:57 BeaTeR wrote: lol the prophet detected
id believe this if he made the call in the offline qualifiers, instead of in the middle of the ro16, when calm was already 1 game up
Still, the other guys he could've been facing included the likes of Fantasy, Jaedong (whom he did), Bisu, Iris, etc. For Joohyun to call Calm out of all those other contenders is pretty impressive (and a bit lucky of course, there's always a little bit of luck involved)
On August 30 2009 18:57 BeaTeR wrote: lol the prophet detected
id believe this if he made the call in the offline qualifiers, instead of in the middle of the ro16, when calm was already 1 game up
Calm was never a favorite in the entire MSL, but rather an underdog. Would you have picked him to win the MSL, even after he got into the Ro16? KNowing the Kespa ranking format, would you have been able to predict that calm would be able to win? It's too hard to make a good prediction, even at the Ro16 b/c of the level of play that every progamer is capable of; predicting a winner from the offline qualifiers is.. pretty much impossible b/c weird shit happens all the time there.
I created the thread to imitate Hot_Bid's prediction at the Ro16 (or was it Ro8 i forget the timeline of that thread) that Jaedong would win his first OSL a couple of years ago, when he was still the underdog. Overall, it's just too damn hard to pick a winner anywhere before ro16.
FYI - I was watching him closely in proleague (when he beat flash on outsider) and at beginning of the MSL, and "thought this guy could make it to the MSL finals if he keeps playing like this!" It took my lazy ass (and some balls) to create the thread, because I knew that I would be harshly criticized for picking Calm out of all the other favorites. But his Ro 32 and Ro 16 performance made me believe and go for it =)
EPT
P
