Just thought I'd share this with you all because I think the commentators in the videos deserve credit/publicity for at least trying and putting on a show. They were doing commentary on a (non-live) Bo7 series between 2 of, StarCraft vanilla's, fastest community's top players.
If you have any tips/comments on their videos, then feel free to reply here and I'll relay your messages to them.
Stemming from some talk in the forums, MaFia.HasH and Pro]Marine- agreed to play a best of 7 series for 1v1:SC and to have the games commentated. They played the series, and as promised, here are the videos.
If you watch the videos directly from this thread I suggest you click the "HQ" button on the bottom right of the YouTube player and then click the "View Full Screen" button. The quality will be good enough to enjoy it full screen and not be distracted by the thread.
If you don't want to spoil the results before you watch the vids I suggest not reading posts in this thread. People may be discussing what happened in the games.
*note* even if one player won 4-0 or 4-1 or something we will always post the maximum amount of videos so that viewers can't tell who won or how many games were in the series before watching any games. Like say one player won 4-1 meaning there were 5 games. Games 6 and 7 would be fake videos.
[size=16]MaFia.HasH vs. Pro]Marine- Best of 7 series[/size]
Pretty interesting to watch how different 1v1 fastest is from the 3v3 weirdness that occurs on bnet.
Also, Spartan, can you set up a Bo7 between Attackzerg and a high level fastest player? He seems willing and I know he is at least C+ so it should be interesting.
It was cool in the sense that there was a little meta game going on and T had a nice strategy in game 1 actually. His control was pretty poor though. I'd probably say a solid C+ player would be an underdog in a game against him if he has no fastest experience, but give him a week and he'll be a stronger player.
I thought his control was pretty good actually, the beginning marine vs ling was easy play, but his tank push was fast. At the same time, did you check his macro? It is a lot harder to keep money under control than low-money.
Although one thing I would criticize is, despite all his good strats, I would think he could have got wraith a lot sooner no problem.
On June 11 2009 13:33 kNyTTyM wrote: Pretty interesting to watch how different 1v1 fastest is from the 3v3 weirdness that occurs on bnet.
Also, Spartan, can you set up a Bo7 between Attackzerg and a high level fastest player? He seems willing and I know he is at least C+ so it should be interesting.
On June 11 2009 13:51 Spartan wrote: That is where most of the competition is, sadly. Unfortunately there are a handful of players that can't handle the BW units still.
If it has to be vannila that is fine just find a player who isn't going to play the bo7 with me to play some practice games.
On June 11 2009 13:54 Pawsom wrote: It was cool in the sense that there was a little meta game going on and T had a nice strategy in game 1 actually. His control was pretty poor though. I'd probably say a solid C+ player would be an underdog in a game against him if he has no fastest experience, but give him a week and he'll be a stronger player.
I have alot alot of vanilla bgh and fastest experience dating back to 2000-2005.
- Why cant the terran lift barracks into zerg base and make firebbats? That would force the zerg to make a sunken colony or atleast waste larva on lings. - I see the players que up a lot of units in one production building. Can't them make another barrack of add a CC instead? - Since I kno medics cannot be used, why doesn the zerg go for a fast hydra attack before tanks get there or try to muta harass > guardians?
I would appreciate these questions to be answered. Thx!
On June 11 2009 14:18 WindCalibur wrote: several things i wanted to ask...
- Why cant the terran lift barracks into zerg base and make firebbats? That would force the zerg to make a sunken colony or atleast waste larva on lings. - I see the players que up a lot of units in one production building. Can't them make another barrack of add a CC instead? - Since I kno medics cannot be used, why doesn the zerg go for a fast hydra attack before tanks get there or try to muta harass > guardians?
I would appreciate these questions to be answered. Thx!
TBH the strongest units against terran in vannila are muta -> hydra.
With lan latency the strength of mutas will overwhelm any 3 rax/tank play. The problem is ZvP where you must use alot of sunken colonies against zealots but once again without corsairs the power of mutalisks is dramatically increased.
FMPs are fun, but are barely balanced in BW...and the balance goes back and forth constantly depending on race and number of players...
I don't see how terran can stand a chance without medics on FMPs. I dick around on FMPs a lot, and got good at those before I started playing melee, and T can't safely tech to mech without good allies who will be aggressive to buy you time (in a 3v3). The best option is for T to be aggressive with an MnM opening, while slowly teching to tanks and vessels to hard push into center. Against bad players, MnM can win the game right then and there. Against good players, it'll hold map control.
some of the parts of those games really confused me... I'm sure there's reasons, because obviously they are the best money map players for a reason, but game 4 it seemed like the P teched super, super late, when his zealots weren't doing shit anyway.... Why dont they do a build like 2-3 cannons for safety, then tech and just stomp mnm + tank with templars + zealots. I dont see why he needed 4 gateways that early when he coulda just had 1-2 + cannons.
The zerg vs terran matchup seems really bizarre too, im surprised that muta harrass doesnt play a bigger roll, making the terran atleast keep some forces back at his base or spend money on turrets etc.
On June 11 2009 17:10 Lysdexia wrote: Fastest tvz looks pretty cool. Why vanilla instead of broodwar?
Because BW would be too balanced I guess. I'm not bashing FMP players but when Blizzard basically said "sorry our game sucks, we'll create an expansion to fix all the flaws.", you'd want to play the expansion instead.
On June 11 2009 17:10 Lysdexia wrote: Fastest tvz looks pretty cool. Why vanilla instead of broodwar?
Because BW would be too balanced I guess. I'm not bashing FMP players but when Blizzard basically said "sorry our game sucks, we'll create an expansion to fix all the flaws.", you'd want to play the expansion instead.
Wow that's a pretty shitty way of looking at it. Blizzard made WC3 too.
On June 11 2009 17:10 Lysdexia wrote: Fastest tvz looks pretty cool. Why vanilla instead of broodwar?
Because BW would be too balanced I guess. I'm not bashing FMP players but when Blizzard basically said "sorry our game sucks, we'll create an expansion to fix all the flaws.", you'd want to play the expansion instead.
Probably the most retarded post I've ever seen, I'm pretty sure "our game sucks lets fix it" was the opposite of the reason why blizz created the expansion, in fact, i'm sure if starcraft did suck they wouldnt have bothered to create an expansion cos there would have been no fan base for it... You're either trolling or utterly, utterly stupid :S
Actually I'm curious why in game 4 the commentator said that firebats were useless against cannons. Wouldn't they be really great especially since cannon health is really half shields? And firebats have the extra 10 health as well, so a third hit would allow marines to get more damage.
On June 12 2009 00:36 OnceKing wrote: Actually I'm curious why in game 4 the commentator said that firebats were useless against cannons. Wouldn't they be really great especially since cannon health is really half shields? And firebats have the extra 10 health as well, so a third hit would allow marines to get more damage.
On June 12 2009 00:36 OnceKing wrote: Actually I'm curious why in game 4 the commentator said that firebats were useless against cannons. Wouldn't they be really great especially since cannon health is really half shields? And firebats have the extra 10 health as well, so a third hit would allow marines to get more damage.
Medics. there are none :o
But since there are no medics, that means marines would definitely survive only 2 hits without upgrades. Shouldn't this make the extra hit from the firebat more useful?
On June 12 2009 00:47 iloveHieu wrote: $$ map = fake Starcraft imo and to play Original to top it off is a joke ew
LAMENESS!
i agree this isn't even starcraft to me, don't understand how people can play this
it's for little kids who'd like unlimited/worry-free resources, playing a few games for fun is okay but when it comes to commentating/analysis is ridiculous..
well I think Spartan just wants more traffic to make money off of ads -.-
People bashing FMP players are ridiculous. It's just another facet of Starcraft, like how DOTA evolved into a game with its own set of rules.
And yes Spartan is always just trying to make money off ads, he pretended to want to sell his website just to generate traffic. Everytime you see a Spartan thread, 95% of the time it will backlink to vilegaming, regardless of the thread content.
On June 12 2009 01:26 Chill wrote: People bashing FMP players are ridiculous. It's just another facet of Starcraft, like how DOTA evolved into a game with its own set of rules.
And yes Spartan is always just trying to make money off ads, he pretended to want to sell his website just to generate traffic. Everytime you see a Spartan thread, 95% of the time it will backlink to vilegaming, regardless of the thread content.
not exactly, it's a little different imo.. dota is a completely different game and it's a modification of war3(kind of like how CS is completely different from Half Life, that's why it's a mod) Money maps is just SC with unlimited money, imagine war3 players playing with unlimited money and having a community around it lol. They already have it easier in some aspects, but that would just be hilarious.
and yeah I also agree, every Spartan thread its him posting his site or something about fastest map possible
Pro]Marine- is a high level FMP player, not the best, but certainly top 10 vanilla. MaFia.HasH blows. Get Marine- to play like.. .Pro]Jaedong- or something.
At 1:17 game one, you can see the spawning pool build with just 150 minerals. This game was made before patch 1.15? (can't remember) back in the hayday of 4pool. I'm sorry, but everyone in this thread could take these guys on if they were still as bad as they are today. I seem to recall the name Themarine though. Maybe he got better after 2000.
edit:the game is 2009. What? The? F? The minerals for the pool is still definetly 150 though. So this is still an unpatched version.
On June 12 2009 01:59 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Pro]Marine- is a high level FMP player, not the best, but certainly top 10 vanilla. MaFia.HasH blows. Get Marine- to play like.. .Pro]Jaedong- or something.
Isn't Marine- Jaedong-... That's what the link seems to imply, as well as the screenshot.
On June 12 2009 01:26 Chill wrote: People bashing FMP players are ridiculous. It's just another facet of Starcraft, like how DOTA evolved into a game with its own set of rules.
And yes Spartan is always just trying to make money off ads, he pretended to want to sell his website just to generate traffic. Everytime you see a Spartan thread, 95% of the time it will backlink to vilegaming, regardless of the thread content.
not exactly, it's a little different imo.. dota is a completely different game and it's a modification of war3(kind of like how CS is completely different from Half Life, that's why it's a mod) Money maps is just SC with unlimited money, imagine war3 players playing with unlimited money and having a community around it lol. They already have it easier in some aspects, but that would just be hilarious.
and yeah I also agree, every Spartan thread its him posting his site or something about fastest map possible
It's not unlimited, there is a maximum amount of workers that can mine minerals and gas. It's inflated, accelerated Starcraft.
its just different.. its a game, we play the game to have fun, play it however you like. geez... don't cry over how someone else plays the game "differently" than you.
I play both, and both can be fun.
and pro]jaedong- is either m3mo or marine not sure... and hash is quite good whoever said he sux.
and for those that want to see 2v2 games, the tradition is PPvPP, its quite popular because its more balanced without race imba. but there is a lot of zealot micro while keeping a constant pump and macro'ing up. watch some of the top ppvpp reps and its not easy.
PS: whoever said T is weak in team games (2v2 mainly, 3v3 is too wack, and there isn't a 3v3 league) is not true, mass rine with or without medics is very strong. if u open with 4 rax build with T, it can be the best earlygame race in 2v2. especially if it has a P partner. even with a T partner, double mass marines can be hard to hold off without build a lot of static D.
and u guys bash spartan, as if hes NOT trying to promote his site? hes not an active player or anything so whats wrong with him trying to promote the site? hes not doing it "sneakily". its not like hes spamming random threads going "oh yea 3 hatch muta is a good zvt strat, but here look at vilegaming.com"...
On June 12 2009 01:26 Chill wrote: People bashing FMP players are ridiculous. It's just another facet of Starcraft, like how DOTA evolved into a game with its own set of rules.
And yes Spartan is always just trying to make money off ads, he pretended to want to sell his website just to generate traffic. Everytime you see a Spartan thread, 95% of the time it will backlink to vilegaming, regardless of the thread content.
I think you get banned when you advertise your stuff?
On June 12 2009 00:36 OnceKing wrote: Actually I'm curious why in game 4 the commentator said that firebats were useless against cannons. Wouldn't they be really great especially since cannon health is really half shields? And firebats have the extra 10 health as well, so a third hit would allow marines to get more damage.
Medics. there are none :o
But since there are no medics, that means marines would definitely survive only 2 hits without upgrades. Shouldn't this make the extra hit from the firebat more useful?
Because when you stim marines still surivive with 2 hits while firebats are then killed in 2 hits.
On June 12 2009 02:01 obesechicken13 wrote: At 1:17 game one, you can see the spawning pool build with just 150 minerals. This game was made before patch 1.15? (can't remember) back in the hayday of 4pool. I'm sorry, but everyone in this thread could take these guys on if they were still as bad as they are today. I seem to recall the name Themarine though. Maybe he got better after 2000.
edit:the game is 2009. What? The? F? The minerals for the pool is still definetly 150 though. So this is still an unpatched version.
No, you are underestimating their skill. I'm pretty sure they'd beat a large portion of players just by raw mechanics. ie. if you play pvp with zealots only (to take away strategy aspect), they would outmicro (zealot micro) + outmacro (probe production) up to the C level if not more.
Granted, they may not know low-money builds/strategies, but a low-money player would not know a fastest build as well either. Just because you can mass does not mean it's an optimal build even in fastest.
On June 12 2009 02:22 BabyRhino wrote: its just different.. its a game, we play the game to have fun, play it however you like. geez... don't cry over how someone else plays the game "differently" than you.
I play both, and both can be fun.
and pro]jaedong- is either m3mo or marine not sure... and hash is quite good whoever said he sux.
and for those that want to see 2v2 games, the tradition is PPvPP, its quite popular because its more balanced without race imba. but there is a lot of zealot micro while keeping a constant pump and macro'ing up. watch some of the top ppvpp reps and its not easy.
MaFia.HasH blew, he had terrible mechanics, and terrible builds, even for a FPM player. I'll log on vanilla SC and bo7 him on FPM any time.
My personal belief is that good BGHers would be better at FMP than good FMPers (assuming a quick acclimation period). Maybe I'm just being biased, but in a different way than the majority of TL
Either way, I'll help AttackZerg out with practicing to play a match vs them
On June 12 2009 04:16 iloveHieu wrote: Chill I'm not bashing the FMP players, I used to play it for years myself but it's bullshit is pretty much a fact..
the same goes for BGH, not the way Starcraft intended to be played is my point.
So what about standard maps with mineral walls, stacked neutral buildings, neutral command centers that allow infested terrans in zvp, minerals on ramps, walls of lurker eggs, chokes that can be walled off by destroying neutral assimilators, ect?
I can say this right now, anyone who posted in this thread cannot beat either of these players in just one week. These games were pretty short, the true skill in fastest comes when it gets to the 15 minute mark, when you have to constantly macro to stay at 200/200 while doing as much micro as you can and using storm drops etc. I'm not saying fastest takes more skill than low, but some of you guys are clearly underestimating the strength and experience of these players.
btw, marine- is better than jaedong-
oh yeah and another thing, i think the reason so many people play fastest on vanilla is not because they cant use bw units, it's because a) all the competition is on vanilla and b) vanilla is more balanced on fastest i.e in zvt the zerg cant just lurk swarm and camp his choke all game.
On June 12 2009 04:28 Bond(i2) wrote: I can say this right now, anyone who posted in this thread cannot beat either of these players in just one week.
I was trying to play them within a week.
If either of these gamers can beat me in a bo7 fmp I will be very impressed.
im sure they would, we should get spartan to set something up and in the mean time ill play you within the week on fastest if u want, since i started playing vgt like 3 weeks ago
AttackZerg, what times are you online? What is your timezone? Can you hop on the USWest gateway? I think I can arrange for you to play my clan mate, who is one of BW fastest's top players. He is Jeremy[nK] aka gOlem[nK] and is currently in the #3 position on VGT:BW's 1v1 ladder: http://vilegaming.com/league.x/standings1/2
I'm Spartan[nK] on the USWest gateway if you need to contact me.
On June 12 2009 03:50 HnR)Insane wrote: My personal belief is that good BGHers would be better at FMP than good FMPers (assuming a quick acclimation period). Maybe I'm just being biased, but in a different way than the majority of TL
Either way, I'll help AttackZerg out with practicing to play a match vs them
I'm not sure if you've seen these, though they are almost 2 years old..
The strategies looked so weird. I'm kind of baffled at why they tech so late and how dragoons weren't used at all... I got to admit that those commentators were good though. They definitely seemed comfortable doing it. It would be cool to see AttackZerg's games, if they will be released.
On June 12 2009 03:50 HnR)Insane wrote: My personal belief is that good BGHers would be better at FMP than good FMPers (assuming a quick acclimation period). Maybe I'm just being biased, but in a different way than the majority of TL
Either way, I'll help AttackZerg out with practicing to play a match vs them
BGH is closer to normal melee play than it is to FMP.
Seriously everyone...FMP is a completely different format, and a completely different ballgame. Timings, build orders and macro are completely different.
I don't think it's a superior, or even equivalent format to standard melee play, but D+/C- at normal play won't make you good at FMP. All I see here are a bunch of people flexing their superiority complexes. -____-;;
A lot of good FMP players play melee as well, after all. Some of them are even quite good (as in not hopelessly D-).
They are not bad. Of course, they are not the most competitive players there are, after all, they play vanilla fastest. But they seem to be at least decent at it.
To help those who are saying the builds are weird and cannot believe they are standard, simply think of blood bath.
Blood bath is a low-money map, yet it is played completely different than the maps we're used to. While in normal games, we go 1 gate core in pvt, the standard in blood bath is to 2 gate. It may be easy to understand this because the distances are short, but similarly fmp has its own set of standard builds and its harder to grasp because if you haven't played a lot of it, you won't understand the flow of income.
The flow of income is used regularly in normal games too. When players 1 fac fe and put up 3+ rax or facs all at once or a toss build that puts down 4+ gates after an expo is a concept of the flow of income. We know within the near future, our income will be able support building the units. FMP's flow of income is based on this, but the scale is completely different.
Also, fmp players are especially good at the rule of constant worker production, because it is much more important in fmp than low money to have more workers.
On June 12 2009 11:52 Ryshi wrote: Also, fmp players are especially good at the rule of constant worker production, because it is much more important in fmp than low money to have more workers.
I don't think so...
It hurts a lot more to miss a probe or SCV in standard melee than it does in FMP...
On June 12 2009 05:18 Spartan wrote: AttackZerg, what times are you online? What is your timezone? Can you hop on the USWest gateway? I think I can arrange for you to play my clan mate, who is one of BW fastest's top players. He is Jeremy[nK] aka gOlem[nK] and is currently in the #3 position on VGT:BW's 1v1 ladder: http://vilegaming.com/league.x/standings1/2
I'm Spartan[nK] on the USWest gateway if you need to contact me.
omg i see spartan here too -_- anyways one thing wrong with FMP is the gigantic choke which T cannot wall, so they are forced to mm vs toss.
base to base distances vary so much, and the middle//choke is buildable.
you don't have to expo, so you really only have one base to protect. so macro is easy. you f2 theres all your nexus. you f3 theres all your gates.
(note that expo can incredibly increase income; since most people make about 50-60 mineral gathers, and most stacks have 30-50, so the 10-20 or so excess workers can gather from the extra mineral stack. some zerg also like to gas expo for a total of 15 gas, if they are going guardians)
and since money income is faster but build time for buildings stay the same, toss will lay down have 2 gate instead of 1 gate when pylon is done. this, and because stack worker is accepted as legal play, ling rush isn't as affective, especially with gas that you use to stack surrounding you everywhere. t
here is no ramp which means no high-ground to low-ground transition with passage that only allows 2 or 3 zlots at a time; it is a gigantic choke that T can't wall, so zlots reign supreme. in team play mid build gayness and also cannoning a terran up is very viable because the middle is buildable, and the choke is so big T won't mech anyway.
i try to create better fastest maps, but the strange features make it so that any regular fastest player blindly dislikes it, even if they are terran. here is one i created
-some features is that: all bases are chokable with 1 supply 1 rax, althrough 12 and 6 lings can run through wall... i'm debating one whether i should fix it so the supply can be made on top of the rax, but that would change the pathways of 12 and 6 to a point where ordinary fastest players wouldn't like it
-also yes those 3 neutral command centers for Z to infest, inspired by holy world, but most Z are too lazy to make use of it anyway, and would rather stick to standard play. theres 3 for each player so that hydras can only attack the cc's that are offset to you, except bottom left and bottom right can get ones on top of theirs since the cliff isn't as cliff. debating whether i should take the time to fix it, but it doesn't really matter much in a real game anyway.
-also one of the problems that most fastest have, including the one spartan uses for his league is that 1 and 11 are able to tank 3 and 9's top respectably, if they are terran, where almost all race makes the critical extra nex/command center/hatch//tech. i told spartan to fix it but stupidly he said "true it would be good but it just wouldn't be fastest"
also in most fastest 1 can tank 12's left side,which is where most people build their tech buildings (between the gas and cliff is 3 spaces, enough to fit a core//citadel//archives//ect, or in some cases, like my map, 4 spaces, so that people are able to make 2 rows of cannons to defend their minerals from storm drops and what not.
edit:i made it so that there are enough spaces(12 spaces) in between bases that they cannot be tanked from the sides in this map too, except 7 and 5 can tank 9 and 3's bottom a tad, though it doesn't bother most people since thats unpopular places to build tech.
comments? theories? suggestions for my maps? planning on making middle unbuildable, but most people would just bitch about it
On June 12 2009 04:28 Bond(i2) wrote: I can say this right now, anyone who posted in this thread cannot beat either of these players in just one week. These games were pretty short, the true skill in fastest comes when it gets to the 15 minute mark, when you have to constantly macro to stay at 200/200 while doing as much micro as you can and using storm drops etc. I'm not saying fastest takes more skill than low, but some of you guys are clearly underestimating the strength and experience of these players.
btw, marine- is better than jaedong-
oh yeah and another thing, i think the reason so many people play fastest on vanilla is not because they cant use bw units, it's because a) all the competition is on vanilla and b) vanilla is more balanced on fastest i.e in zvt the zerg cant just lurk swarm and camp his choke all game.
I'll play a match against a fastest player on Wednesday or something, sure.
On June 12 2009 05:18 Spartan wrote: AttackZerg, what times are you online? What is your timezone? Can you hop on the USWest gateway? I think I can arrange for you to play my clan mate, who is one of BW fastest's top players. He is Jeremy[nK] aka gOlem[nK] and is currently in the #3 position on VGT:BW's 1v1 ladder: http://vilegaming.com/league.x/standings1/2
I'm Spartan[nK] on the USWest gateway if you need to contact me.
Hey there I am sorry I have completely missed this thread and its bumps (lots of iccup)
I can't get chaos on my gaming computer because every internet explorer page ends up trying to download. So it can only go on iccup, or west without lan latency.
Anychance we can play on iccup and I just won't use a single broodwar unit?
I will be on from 10 pst to 2:30 pst threw monday, monday is an all-day and night day for me!
On June 12 2009 05:18 Spartan wrote: AttackZerg, what times are you online? What is your timezone? Can you hop on the USWest gateway? I think I can arrange for you to play my clan mate, who is one of BW fastest's top players. He is Jeremy[nK] aka gOlem[nK] and is currently in the #3 position on VGT:BW's 1v1 ladder: http://vilegaming.com/league.x/standings1/2
I'm Spartan[nK] on the USWest gateway if you need to contact me.
Don't back down attackzerg!
Since I pmed him asked for a match I only checked pms, and in the first one he told me he might not be able to set it up.
I had no clue he posted here, I'm going to play with insane in about 10 minutes to get ready and then I'm down for whatever
Does that Hydra guy still play? I watched some of his reps a while ago and he seemed like a complete monster compared to these guys... Mafia.Hash made some really bad decisions, i could probably PvT better than him on fmp...
Also I did not make this challenge because I feel superior to fmp players, I'm curious what happends when a solid b- gamer (b- 3 seasons in a row) plays against them!! That is all my challenege was out of interest not pride for those who are concerned!
On June 13 2009 14:44 HnR)Insane wrote: Download firefox and use that instead of internet explorer? :O Should be easy to download it since it tries to download everything
I can't download anything .... it literally goes to whatever url and tries to download, for insance I've tried to download teamliquid.net and msn.com 10 or 12 times .... =(
On June 13 2009 10:24 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: omg i see spartan here too -_- anyways one thing wrong with FMP is the gigantic choke which T cannot wall, so they are forced to mm vs toss.
base to base distances vary so much, and the middle//choke is buildable.
you don't have to expo, so you really only have one base to protect. so macro is easy. you f2 theres all your nexus. you f3 theres all your gates.
(note that expo can incredibly increase income; since most people make about 50-60 mineral gathers, and most stacks have 30-50, so the 10-20 or so excess workers can gather from the extra mineral stack. some zerg also like to gas expo for a total of 15 gas, if they are going guardians)
and since money income is faster but build time for buildings stay the same, toss will lay down have 2 gate instead of 1 gate when pylon is done. this, and because stack worker is accepted as legal play, ling rush isn't as affective, especially with gas that you use to stack surrounding you everywhere. t
here is no ramp which means no high-ground to low-ground transition with passage that only allows 2 or 3 zlots at a time; it is a gigantic choke that T can't wall, so zlots reign supreme. in team play mid build gayness and also cannoning a terran up is very viable because the middle is buildable, and the choke is so big T won't mech anyway.
i try to create better fastest maps, but the strange features make it so that any regular fastest player blindly dislikes it, even if they are terran. here is one i created
-some features is that: all bases are chokable with 1 supply 1 rax, althrough 12 and 6 lings can run through wall... i'm debating one whether i should fix it so the supply can be made on top of the rax, but that would change the pathways of 12 and 6 to a point where ordinary fastest players wouldn't like it
-also yes those 3 neutral command centers for Z to infest, inspired by holy world, but most Z are too lazy to make use of it anyway, and would rather stick to standard play. theres 3 for each player so that hydras can only attack the cc's that are offset to you, except bottom left and bottom right can get ones on top of theirs since the cliff isn't as cliff. debating whether i should take the time to fix it, but it doesn't really matter much in a real game anyway.
-also one of the problems that most fastest have, including the one spartan uses for his league is that 1 and 11 are able to tank 3 and 9's top respectably, if they are terran, where almost all race makes the critical extra nex/command center/hatch//tech. i told spartan to fix it but stupidly he said "true it would be good but it just wouldn't be fastest"
also in most fastest 1 can tank 12's left side,which is where most people build their tech buildings (between the gas and cliff is 3 spaces, enough to fit a core//citadel//archives//ect, or in some cases, like my map, 4 spaces, so that people are able to make 2 rows of cannons to defend their minerals from storm drops and what not.
edit:i made it so that there are enough spaces(12 spaces) in between bases that they cannot be tanked from the sides in this map too, except 7 and 5 can tank 9 and 3's bottom a tad, though it doesn't bother most people since thats unpopular places to build tech.
comments? theories? suggestions for my maps? planning on making middle unbuildable, but most people would just bitch about it
Most FMP maps I've played are ling-tight wallable at all but 12 and 6 spots...some will require 3 depots, but still.
I'm down for playing fastest when ever, i can get on iccup or chaos on any server.
On June 13 2009 14:46 AttackZerg wrote: Also I did not make this challenge because I feel superior to fmp players, I'm curious what happends when a solid b- gamer (b- 3 seasons in a row) plays against them!! That is all my challenege was out of interest not pride for those who are concerned!
well i was a b- player like a month ago and i get fuckin raped by pro fastest players lol. Its the only reason i got defensive about fastest.
On June 13 2009 18:00 AttackZerg wrote: ok so maybe I shouldn't play a top fmp player.
I'll glady do it. But no broodwar units and terrible FMP strategy comprehension and my refusal to play anything but zerg ...
I'll put it like this between konadora and insane I think I'm 0/11 ....
lol, what a funny twist of events.
On June 13 2009 14:46 AttackZerg wrote: Also I did not make this challenge because I feel superior to fmp players, I'm curious what happends when a solid b- gamer (b- 3 seasons in a row) plays against them!! That is all my challenege was out of interest not pride for those who are concerned!
i actually play fastest a lot, but only team play. 1v1 is just retarded and the fact that people think it is a valuable comparison of skill are equally retarded. toss is just completely unfair starting with cannons and zealots in the early game, to reavers and storm on the mineral patch. but 2v2 and 3v3 are a lot of fun.
On June 13 2009 14:46 AttackZerg wrote: Also I did not make this challenge because I feel superior to fmp players, I'm curious what happends when a solid b- gamer (b- 3 seasons in a row) plays against them!! That is all my challenege was out of interest not pride for those who are concerned!
I'm pretty sure he meant he does not feel he is superior, you're reading the emphasis wrong.
On June 14 2009 05:06 leveIs wrote: i actually play fastest a lot, but only team play. 1v1 is just retarded and the fact that people think it is a valuable comparison of skill are equally retarded. toss is just completely unfair starting with cannons and zealots in the early game, to reavers and storm on the mineral patch. but 2v2 and 3v3 are a lot of fun.
Yeah, toss is most definitely imbalanced on that map, especially vs terran.
EPT
But if you have some commentated games of 2v2 or 3v3 on FMP in BW, I'll watch it. 
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m60/ForLorNCrimsonShadow/scf.jpg)
