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On March 19 2009 11:23 SkepTicAL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2009 10:18 ramen247 wrote:On March 19 2009 07:38 SkepTicAL wrote:
Dude those are necessary switches. A guy going tank+vulture TvT WILL get wraithed because that is the counter to stop that terran from moving forward, that isn't being creative, that is something you pick up through experience. What tech switches do you see in TvP, i see vulture+tank the entire time until arbs or carriers are out. TvT?? There's different combination to go but you should know what to do based on the map. Again, TvZ leaves room for creativity(look at upmagic) but that is the only way in which T can show their creativity.
Edit: What do you mean by a breif army movement? I would think moving your army around is neccesary. Can you stop sounding like a poet and give me some real situation examples please. tvt can be creative. no one knew wtf boxer was trying to do until they finally saw it in action against hiya. and creativity isnt just about unit combo -_-... justcuz tvp is always vult tank until arbs or carriers doesnt mean all tvp is played the same way. all terrans have their own style of tvp that is evident to the progamers themselves, but is harder to distinguish for us. that is how progamers can distinguish each other. whether it be a way that terran manuevers his army around the map, or the way the terran builds up to the timing point, those are all creativity based on their own style of play, but they are not immediately distinguishable. A a terran plays more and more, they can find their inner sense and unleash it through their own gameplay, and that is how he will be identified by people-his style. ..... can you just admit that terran is the most limited when it comes to creativity? Moving your army a certain way and making supply depots isn't being creative, its a necessity. All i hear is this poetic fungshei(sp) stuff about swift movements and finding your inner self, hit me with some strong arguments to change my mind please. P.S Where is boxer these days?
alrite how about this?
tell me creative ways to play zerg.
no, rushes are not freking creative.
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I actually decided to play T after I gave up trying to learn PvZ. There's just so much variety in how the matchup is played and Protoss has to constantly react to the Zerg's changing strategy.
From what I've seen on TL, T tends to have the most rigorously defined build orders which can sometimes be carried all the way to max supply.
Although Terrans require the highest mechanics, I find that my APM is naturally higher playing Terran simply because I can do the exact same build every game and still win as long as my mechanics are significantly better than my opponent's. I can't really do that with PvZ - for example +1 speedzeal archon dies to lurkers so quickly it's not even funny, even though that's the only build I know how to do  .
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On March 19 2009 11:37 Kyo Yuy wrote:I actually decided to play T after I gave up trying to learn PvZ. There's just so much variety in how the matchup is played and Protoss has to constantly react to the Zerg's changing strategy. From what I've seen on TL, T tends to have the most rigorously defined build orders which can sometimes be carried all the way to max supply. Although Terrans require the highest mechanics, I find that my APM is naturally higher playing Terran simply because I can do the exact same build every game and still win as long as my mechanics are significantly better than my opponent's. I can't really do that with PvZ - for example +1 speedzeal archon dies to lurkers so quickly it's not even funny, even though that's the only build I know how to do .
wtf? if your p mechanics are significantly better than the zerg's...then you will win as well. if a zerg has much better mechanics than the terran, then the zerg will win thru a pure build order...
your logic is so flawed. mechanics are important for every matchup.
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I think something really cool would be a "walk me through his head" of Flash, Fantasy, Forgg, FBH, Mind, or Sea in a game. I really liked how Idra was able to talk about game decisions behind the mechanics in games when he did live reports (e.g. talking about Flash v Kal on Medusa in WL, about how flash delayed 4th for a push).
Timing pushes aside, what other intuitive things can a T player do? Idra, Artosis?
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I didn't think it was possible to be creative as a zerg either, but then I saw Hoejja's games. (Flash vs Luxury on Troy was also creative)
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Baa?21243 Posts
You can be creative with every race. Every once in a while, a player will do something so stunning that will make you go ":o" like Bisu did in July v Best game 2. Don't think creativity is limited to any particular race...
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maybe its just cause I played Z for my first like.. 6 years of BW, but I always found zerg easiest..
I mean, you have to know timings, and know how to micro really well, but zerg gives you so much options and if you are smart with your decision making, you can come from behind (economically behind) and still win games, based on smart attacking decisions, such as protosses who have huge economies/armies but if you keep doing drops in their base, so they go defend there, then you kill their expo/etc with defiler/ling, etc.. its just an open race I find.
as protoss, Ive always had more trouble, maybe again its just me being used to zerg so much over the 6 years of playing them and only about 1 year of playing protoss, but I generally think zerg is a race that if you dont lose to a stupid early game cheese, you can pretty much hang in there with most players under A- and manage.
Altho, I do agree ZvT is the total bullshit matchup, and the reason I solely quit zerg was due to playing Z on gamei, and this was during the reign of Boxer.. ughh. once the "vessel cloud" is completed, its just a total pain in the ass.. I see that as the hardest matchup in the game, altho lately with the tactics of Savior its been abit easier.
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On March 19 2009 11:45 t_co wrote:
I think something really cool would be a "walk me through his head" of Flash, Fantasy, Forgg, FBH, Mind, or Sea in a game. I really liked how Idra was able to talk about game decisions behind the mechanics in games when he did live reports (e.g. talking about Flash v Kal on Medusa in WL, about how flash delayed 4th for a push).
Timing pushes aside, what other intuitive things can a T player do? Idra, Artosis?
pray
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On March 19 2009 11:31 ramen247 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2009 11:23 SkepTicAL wrote:On March 19 2009 10:18 ramen247 wrote:On March 19 2009 07:38 SkepTicAL wrote:
Dude those are necessary switches. A guy going tank+vulture TvT WILL get wraithed because that is the counter to stop that terran from moving forward, that isn't being creative, that is something you pick up through experience. What tech switches do you see in TvP, i see vulture+tank the entire time until arbs or carriers are out. TvT?? There's different combination to go but you should know what to do based on the map. Again, TvZ leaves room for creativity(look at upmagic) but that is the only way in which T can show their creativity.
Edit: What do you mean by a breif army movement? I would think moving your army around is neccesary. Can you stop sounding like a poet and give me some real situation examples please. tvt can be creative. no one knew wtf boxer was trying to do until they finally saw it in action against hiya. and creativity isnt just about unit combo -_-... justcuz tvp is always vult tank until arbs or carriers doesnt mean all tvp is played the same way. all terrans have their own style of tvp that is evident to the progamers themselves, but is harder to distinguish for us. that is how progamers can distinguish each other. whether it be a way that terran manuevers his army around the map, or the way the terran builds up to the timing point, those are all creativity based on their own style of play, but they are not immediately distinguishable. A a terran plays more and more, they can find their inner sense and unleash it through their own gameplay, and that is how he will be identified by people-his style. ..... can you just admit that terran is the most limited when it comes to creativity? Moving your army a certain way and making supply depots isn't being creative, its a necessity. All i hear is this poetic fungshei(sp) stuff about swift movements and finding your inner self, hit me with some strong arguments to change my mind please. P.S Where is boxer these days? alrite how about this? tell me creative ways to play zerg. no, rushes are not freking creative.
Have you been watching some of these ZvTs lately? July has been doing shit like 2hatch lurker, switching into muta, then going guardians/hydra/lurk w/e he wants. He abused FBH and Light doing this kind of stuff.
ZvT has been so fun to watch lately, especially when July decided to do stuff like this. It's too bad all of this is coming at a time when Bio is less and less common.
Not to mention Hoejja using burrow in just about 50% of his games
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Baa?21243 Posts
Hoejja has a really interesting style, and does a lot of weird stuff tactics-wise to throw off his opponents, I'm interested to see if he can go on and become a good player or if he'll just fizzle out.
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On March 19 2009 12:28 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2009 11:31 ramen247 wrote:On March 19 2009 11:23 SkepTicAL wrote:On March 19 2009 10:18 ramen247 wrote:On March 19 2009 07:38 SkepTicAL wrote:
Dude those are necessary switches. A guy going tank+vulture TvT WILL get wraithed because that is the counter to stop that terran from moving forward, that isn't being creative, that is something you pick up through experience. What tech switches do you see in TvP, i see vulture+tank the entire time until arbs or carriers are out. TvT?? There's different combination to go but you should know what to do based on the map. Again, TvZ leaves room for creativity(look at upmagic) but that is the only way in which T can show their creativity.
Edit: What do you mean by a breif army movement? I would think moving your army around is neccesary. Can you stop sounding like a poet and give me some real situation examples please. tvt can be creative. no one knew wtf boxer was trying to do until they finally saw it in action against hiya. and creativity isnt just about unit combo -_-... justcuz tvp is always vult tank until arbs or carriers doesnt mean all tvp is played the same way. all terrans have their own style of tvp that is evident to the progamers themselves, but is harder to distinguish for us. that is how progamers can distinguish each other. whether it be a way that terran manuevers his army around the map, or the way the terran builds up to the timing point, those are all creativity based on their own style of play, but they are not immediately distinguishable. A a terran plays more and more, they can find their inner sense and unleash it through their own gameplay, and that is how he will be identified by people-his style. ..... can you just admit that terran is the most limited when it comes to creativity? Moving your army a certain way and making supply depots isn't being creative, its a necessity. All i hear is this poetic fungshei(sp) stuff about swift movements and finding your inner self, hit me with some strong arguments to change my mind please. P.S Where is boxer these days? alrite how about this? tell me creative ways to play zerg. no, rushes are not freking creative. Have you been watching some of these ZvTs lately? July has been doing shit like 2hatch lurker, switching into muta, then going guardians/hydra/lurk w/e he wants. He abused FBH and Light doing this kind of stuff. ZvT has been so fun to watch lately, especially when July decided to do stuff like this. It's too bad all of this is coming at a time when Bio is less and less common. Not to mention Hoejja using burrow in just about 50% of his games
The games that he played in the ZvT race war thingy were very interesting.
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On March 19 2009 06:42 Sadist wrote:
Terran is less situation dependent and reactionary in most circumstances imo. Combine that with the fact that late game its incredibly hard to play/hold expansions etc. Zerg to me feels more like managing the game at least for the most part, I mean obviously you need decent enough control but at the lower-moderate level you dont really need to be fast or anything. Drone management and maybe defiler use would be the only real difficult tasks. Protoss is similar to zerg in that respect as well. With Terran IMO it feels like you have to attack THEM and that puts you at a disadvange a bit because you can get caught unsieged or out of position and cant run away and save your shit like the other races .Late game terran units are just difficult to control/use. Ultras basically rape shit with little effort and can run around the map, whereas toss can recall or have carriers or stuff that can snipe your expansions. Its also very difficult to come back in games since terrans harass is stopped relatively easy so you gotta try to goad the person into attacking you in an unfavorable position for them.
I dunno to me Terran is less about a guide and more playing mechanically perfect with micro/macro than the other races at least at lower levels. Early game Terran is far and away the least forgiving of the 3 races. I guess there are just little intricacies I dont really understand and I feel most if not all non-koreans dont understand. It seems to be that with zerg and toss you can kinda just do something and you can make it work out or at least not make you lose (unless its something retarded like going entirely goon vs 4 fact pure tank or something)whereas terran you can get fucked really hard early because of your build and be basically dead unless the opponent fucks up bad.
Ive definitely noticed more zerg players help each other out though, but above is my reasoning behind why terran is more difficult to get help with.
Really? Terran have trouble coming back in games because your harassment is to easy to shut down? Wow, I'm just kind of speechless, your little groups of rape (6rines 2medics) when they get behind your mineral line and take a billion zerglings and a few lurkers just to get them dislodged are "easy to take down"? Your ridiculously fast vultures that 2hit everything I would conceivably use to block my ran are easy to shut down? Wraith are easy to shut down? I can remember one game where a zerg came back against a Terran, Jaedong vs Lomo, and it was so surprising there was a thread about how it was a conspiracy.
Early game Terran is the least forgiving, really? I mean once you learn to build tight walls Zerg can't do shit against you on the ground whereas your free to do whatever ridiculous tech you feel like because your not obligated to do some sort of harass in order to get economically on par; and let me tell you, its a lot harder to "just make a build work" when your opponent can magically see everything your doing.
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I know you arent fucking bitching.
Wraiths are made of fucking paper, stop crying. YOu arent playing anyone with good enough control to be able to abuse them enough to where they are a problem (you cry about wraiths...but what about mutalisks rofl)
How about you sacrifice an overlord, thats what everyone did before when terran teched, you know before zerg began abusing the fact that they knew terrans build without even scouting? ;D 2 Hydras at your ramp completely stops vul harass too, so stop bitching.
If you make a mistake early game as terran you are dead. Its that simple. Scourge and Muta rape marine med drops anyway, so I dont get what the problem is. Use lords placed in a big ass ring around the map like everyone did before on LT.
Stop bitching about zvt and go build some ultras or hold lurker.
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OoOoOoo DRAMA, anyway if you wan't some help with terran from a terrible player like myself I am Overmind[DkB] on Iccup, also looking for practice partners who don't cheese every god damn game.
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zerg players help more because they subconciously realize they are pathetic little girls for playing a race with a unit with infinite mana that can make you invincible and make all of your opponents units die in one hit. as such they crave reassurement that they are not utter failures at life, and so try to justify their existence by helping others.
terrans are manly men and have no such weak constitution.
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On March 19 2009 13:06 Sadist wrote:
I know you arent fucking bitching.
Wraiths are made of fucking paper, stop crying. YOu arent playing anyone with good enough control to be able to abuse them enough to where they are a problem (you cry about wraiths...but what about mutalisks rofl)
How about you sacrifice an overlord, thats what everyone did before when terran teched, you know before zerg began abusing the fact that they knew terrans build without even scouting? ;D 2 Hydras at your ramp completely stops vul harass too, so stop bitching.
If you make a mistake early game as terran you are dead. Its that simple. Scourge and Muta rape marine med drops anyway, so I dont get what the problem is. Use lords placed in a big ass ring around the map like everyone did before on LT.
Stop bitching about zvt and go build some ultras or hold lurker.
Dude are you freaking serious? You REALLY think Terran mistakes get the least forgiving?
Excuse me but how about you compare a failed 4 pool verses a failed proxy 8 rax? If 4 pool fails, Z is pretty much dead, he has a few drones and shitty econ. If 8 rax fails, boo hoo T was constantly making workers (Z has to share larvae for drone/unit production) and has a much better econ.
You only need 1 dropship to take down 1 unexpecting Z expo, Z needs at least 4+ overlords filled with lings / lurks to even do significant damage to unexpecting T expo. T's expo's CC will simply lift off since Z's don't use hydras in standard ZvT while hatchery pops in less than 9 seconds from dropship's marine group fire.
On a side note, apart from this guy's ironic whining, I found Z's economy hard to set-up. What I mean by that is, you need to balance drone production from larave while spending just enough resouces for fighting units to defend, until you get the optimal economy and you choose the time to stop drone production and you want to invest in ultralings and gas intensive units.
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I've become comfortable with Terran macro now but their units require a lot of baby-sitting for me it feels like.
My friend actually thinks Z units need lot of baby-sitting but I feel like Z macro is harder than T macro but T micro is harder than Z micro. So I guess it all comes down to personal preference
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If a 4 pool fails you deserve to lose, you knew that as soon as you decided to 4 pool.
Edit: I would not compare an 8rax to a 4pool..
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EPT
