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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Haji's article spurred a reaction.
When I read that article I knew that a lot of sentiments surrounding WCG had been compiled and posted in a way that needed attention. I communicated with my contacts in WCG USA and began discussing what needs to change.
Today I had a 1 hour phone conversation with 2 of the top WCG USA people. The premise of the conversation was in what way can WCG improve? Understandably, I can only speak to WCG USA people. But with WCG USA being one of the largest markets for WCG I think change here can be change elsewhere as well. Much less it can be immediate change in an area riddled with problems as it stands, USA.
Some things need to be cleared up.
Some of the "bad" games we see at WCG are a necessity. They are there because they paid to be there. In doing so they are funding larger more important games like Starcraft, Warcraft and Counterstrike. Complaining about those in the long run is illogical because they are what we need essentially.
Additionally, WCG has stuck with SC for all these years. They have gained from this for sure. But they also deserve our gratitude. WCG representatives read everything published here in regard to WCG. Our voice counts, TL has a powerful hand when it comes to community sentiment. If sponsors see an article like that, it could be the lynchpin that moves them away from WCG which ultimately hurts us, the gamers. Personally, I think that cost is outweighed by the message but it is something to consider. Haji's article is a necessity in my opinion, but additional articles (not that there will be or anything) could be redundant and harmful.
Lastly, I think a lot of people lose sight that WCG isn't just a gaming tourney: it is a business. With that in mind they cannot always do what is best for the gamer at the cost of what will keep them from growing and continuing to support gaming. This is more of a framework argument that I'd ask you all to keep in mind when regarding WCG. It isn't an excuse but a reality.
What is being done
WCG USA will have a conference call with me that will be documented and used as a resource. The subject will be "What can WCG USA do to fix its issues and better itself?"
I have taken the liberty of being the spokesperson. I think this wise as I have already made connections in WCG USA but also (hopefully you all for the most part agree) I am a market/gaming minded person that handles said people very well.
One of the things that will change is better replay accessibility. Too often have prelims, offline prelims and finals been void of replays. That will change. I brought up that integrity aside, compiling the replays of an offline tourney (especially) is beneficial to them. Hosting those replays and then mirroring them on gg.net, tl.net and the other community websites means 500k hits on their website. People viewing ads, touring the site etc. It makes all the sense in the world to have replays readily available and easily accessible. Such a little change goes a LONG way in fixing WCG. These are the kind of things we are looking for.
That being said I am opening this thread as a place for people to post ideas and discuss things that can be done. This is specifically for WCG USA but I am more than willing to hear the ideas of non Americans. Sometimes great ideas come from outside the USA as well. Joking aside, this is serious. They recognize that the SC community is unhappy and are willing to change. Think in regard to the prelim level. The offline prelim level. The administrative level.. the national finals etc. Maps, hacks, refs etc I want your thoughts.
WCG wants to improve. Lets help them.
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Good luck with the call. The main thing I'd really liked to see is a easy to use ah launcher (similar to ICCUPs or Chaos) and more current maps. It's nice to see games played on older maps but it's also nicer and more of a necessity to have the games played on maps that everyone plays currently (IE pro maps) I'm sure you'll address this though.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
WCG needs people within the Starcraft scene running its game. I'm sure they field complaints about this on other games too, but without someone who is intimately connected with the Starcraft zeitgeist running or even advising the event, it ends up being like a European without any background in American football being asked to run the NFL. Without a TL admin running WCG, WCG will never have the full respect or trust of the Starcraft community.
Maybe merge TSL/WCG?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Before i start i'll just say that i think this is a really good idea but for those who post - the most important thing is SOLUTIONS. We all know the issues with hacks, last minute maps etc, but from an organizational perspective the solutions are the most important part.
1) If someone is a known hacker in amateur starcraft leagues with legitimate proof, or there is evidence to suggest they have hacked in WCG prelims in the past then they should not be allowed to participate. How would this be determined? Perhaps have a couple refs who's main focus is removing hackers - these things can never be 100%, but this is a tournament not the court. I don't expect WCG organizers to stay on top of who has been caught hacking etc but there should be some format where they can take information from sites like Teamliquid/WGT/Gosugamers etc that "know" what is going on.
i'll add more when i get back from work.
<font size="5">Note also ill be deleting any crap posts from this thread with great fervor.</font>
THAT MEANS YOU ZULU. GO TROLL SOMEWHERE ELSE
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 13 2008 03:43 DeadVessel wrote:
Good luck with the call. The main thing I'd really liked to see is a easy to use ah launcher (similar to ICCUPs or Chaos) and more current maps. It's nice to see games played on older maps but it's also nicer and more of a necessity to have the games played on maps that everyone plays currently (IE pro maps) I'm sure you'll address this though.
Maps are something they will speak to me specifically on. We can impact this on a national level but the international tourney is ran by Korea. That map change (RoV?) was over the top on WCG USA and was forced on everyone.
nobody has an answer for it though.. that map change didn't help the koreans and it surely didn't help the tourney. No idea what can be done about that.
On the national level though YES! We have discussed this issue and will continue to do so. WHen it comes time to pick maps I'd love to hear the community on that one.
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Kennigit, check ur PMs please 
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 13 2008 03:45 GrandInquisitor wrote:
WCG needs people within the Starcraft scene running its game. I'm sure they field complaints about this on other games too, but without someone who is intimately connected with the Starcraft zeitgeist running or even advising the event, it ends up being like a European without any background in American football being asked to run the NFL. Without a TL admin running WCG, WCG will never have the full respect or trust of the Starcraft community.
Maybe merge TSL/WCG?
This was one of the main points of my conversation.
The issue that was raised was that the company that runs the offline prelims, the online prelims etc.. has to be so large and resourceful that it is nearly impossible to find a replacement (for the one that is hired currently) or MORE importantly to give the current company incentive to improve. Yes we are talking about a monopoly.
In response to that I offered myself as a resource that wouldn't need to be hired for big bucks or anything that could be a consultant if not a direct administrator and work with the current company.
People would have to put a lot of pride aside however to allow something like that.. but I pressed the issue because it makes _no_ sense (as you said) to have people disconnected from SC but even gaming in general make decisions for said game and then blindly hope they are cohesive to how that game is ran (and has been ran for 10 years).
The problem btw with merging TSL with WCG would be that each WCG national tourney is fairly independent. TSL is international and my influence extends only to WCG USA (at the moment).
They had however heard of TSL (heard a lot).
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8751 Posts
Regional event dates and locations need to be announced earlier. Gamers play in the online prelim without knowing if they can attend the regional prelim. Gamers have to pay more for plane tickets because of short notice and/or they have a greater inconvenience from job/school because of short notice. The earlier the date and location is solidified and announced, the more of these problems are alleviated.
Why doesn't USA send more people to the grand final? Even after we got first in 2007, we're still sending 1 player or team for nearly every game. If it's a matter of money, then is it possible to spend a bit less on the national finals?
I have heard that people aren't able to pay their own way to the grand finals because by the time the USA plays its national finals, the number of slots available for USA at the grand finals are already locked in. If the USA played the national final earlier, could this problem be fixed? I have noticed that USA is always one of the last countries to play its national finals...
Wouldn't we own Halo 3 at the grand final if the best MLG teams could actually play in WCG? Is there no way to fix this? A guaranteed gold medal would be really nice...
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 13 2008 03:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Regional event dates and locations need to be announced earlier. Gamers play in the online prelim without knowing if they can attend the regional prelim. Gamers have to pay more for plane tickets because of short notice and/or they have a greater inconvenience from job/school because of short notice. The earlier the date and location is solidified and announced, the more of these problems are alleviated.
Why doesn't USA send more people to the grand final? Even after we got first in 2007, we're still sending 1 player or team for nearly every game. If it's a matter of money, then is it possible to spend a bit less on the national finals?
I have heard that people aren't able to pay their own way to the grand finals because by the time the USA plays its national finals, the number of slots available for USA at the grand finals are already locked in. If the USA played the national final earlier, could this problem be fixed? I have noticed that USA is always one of the last countries to play its national finals...
Wouldn't we own Halo 3 at the grand final if the best MLG teams could actually play in WCG? Is there no way to fix this? A guaranteed gold medal would be really nice...
These are all REALLY good ideas. This is the kind of post I am looking for.
They discussed a new model for the prelims -> finals. The date issue is huge and I will make sure that it is one of the action issues raised during the conference.
More slots (especially now) is an issue that I will discuss with them as well. Especially in conjunction with the date issue that allows for better MLG teams to participate. I know this is one of the reasons why top CS teams avoid WCG.. if that could be fixed USA would dominate each year in overall medals (imo).
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 13 2008 03:45 Kennigit wrote:
Before i start i'll just say that i think this is a really good idea but for those who post - the most important thing is SOLUTIONS. We all know the issues with hacks, last minute maps etc, but from an organizational perspective the solutions are the most important part.
1) If someone is a known hacker in amateur starcraft leagues with legitimate proof, or there is evidence to suggest they have hacked in WCG prelims in the past then they should not be allowed to participate. How would this be determined? Perhaps have a couple refs who's main focus is removing hackers - these things can never be 100%, but this is a tournament not the court. I don't expect WCG organizers to stay on top of who has been caught hacking etc but there should be some format where they can take information from sites like Teamliquid/WGT/Gosugamers etc that "know" what is going on.
i'll add more when i get back from work.
Note also ill be deleting any crap posts from this thread with great fervor.
This was an issue I discussed with them specifically. The issue was marketing and the detachment from reality on their behalf. They were worried about persecuting a person wrongfully and catching flak for not having hard proof when they banned a player from WCG. Without going into names I think we all know the situation we are talking about.
I informed them that in its current state SC cannot rely on physical proof to root out its malevolent players. We rely on a jury by community. That speaks to the issue that WCG needs a person connected with SC to be their person "on the ground" and making informed decisions based on how SC is ran these days.
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why even bother having regionals or prelims?
Just have regionals if you are going to have any at all.... the prelim then regional shit is stupid.
Online is dumb too, just do regionals -------> you go to finals, theres no need to play online if you have to end up going to the regional anyway and it would be more fun because more people could go and you could meet more people.
IMO the year i ended up going, 04 I believe, was the best year because top 2 from each prelim went and there were lots of prelims all across the country so lots of people got to go.
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I think it would be much more reasonable to have TL involved in organizing WCG rather than a merger between the TSL and WCG. WCG is a big tournament for more than just one game while the TSL is meant to be focused on StarCraft, the best game. If anything were to be arranged between the two then I think the best would be some good advice on tournament organization and execution. But personally I dont think that would be the best combination.
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51564 Posts
On November 13 2008 03:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 03:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Regional event dates and locations need to be announced earlier. Gamers play in the online prelim without knowing if they can attend the regional prelim. Gamers have to pay more for plane tickets because of short notice and/or they have a greater inconvenience from job/school because of short notice. The earlier the date and location is solidified and announced, the more of these problems are alleviated.
Why doesn't USA send more people to the grand final? Even after we got first in 2007, we're still sending 1 player or team for nearly every game. If it's a matter of money, then is it possible to spend a bit less on the national finals?
I have heard that people aren't able to pay their own way to the grand finals because by the time the USA plays its national finals, the number of slots available for USA at the grand finals are already locked in. If the USA played the national final earlier, could this problem be fixed? I have noticed that USA is always one of the last countries to play its national finals...
Wouldn't we own Halo 3 at the grand final if the best MLG teams could actually play in WCG? Is there no way to fix this? A guaranteed gold medal would be really nice... More slots (especially now) is an issue that I will discuss with them as well. Especially in conjunction with the date issue that allows for better MLG teams to participate. I know this is one of the reasons why top CS teams avoid WCG.. if that could be fixed USA would dominate each year in overall medals (imo).
actually pretty much all the best teams in America attended the WCG USA finals this year (mainly due to the fact EM LA was running at the same time too)
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 13 2008 04:38 SpiralArchitect wrote:
I think it would be much more reasonable to have TL involved in organizing WCG rather than a merger between the TSL and WCG. WCG is a big tournament for more than just one game while the TSL is meant to be focused on StarCraft, the best game. If anything were to be arranged between the two then I think the best would be some good advice on tournament organization and execution. But personally I dont think that would be the best combination.
We can pretty much end talks of a "merger" in regard to TSL and WCG. Both are seperate entities with seperate goals etc.
Also TL wouldn't run WCG for more of the same reasons, and some that you can probably think up on your own.
Trying to get a international organization to run an American event is a bad idea. Especially when it would require lots of hands on work.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 13 2008 04:41 GTR-2-Go wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 03:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On November 13 2008 03:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Regional event dates and locations need to be announced earlier. Gamers play in the online prelim without knowing if they can attend the regional prelim. Gamers have to pay more for plane tickets because of short notice and/or they have a greater inconvenience from job/school because of short notice. The earlier the date and location is solidified and announced, the more of these problems are alleviated.
Why doesn't USA send more people to the grand final? Even after we got first in 2007, we're still sending 1 player or team for nearly every game. If it's a matter of money, then is it possible to spend a bit less on the national finals?
I have heard that people aren't able to pay their own way to the grand finals because by the time the USA plays its national finals, the number of slots available for USA at the grand finals are already locked in. If the USA played the national final earlier, could this problem be fixed? I have noticed that USA is always one of the last countries to play its national finals...
Wouldn't we own Halo 3 at the grand final if the best MLG teams could actually play in WCG? Is there no way to fix this? A guaranteed gold medal would be really nice... More slots (especially now) is an issue that I will discuss with them as well. Especially in conjunction with the date issue that allows for better MLG teams to participate. I know this is one of the reasons why top CS teams avoid WCG.. if that could be fixed USA would dominate each year in overall medals (imo). actually pretty much all the best teams in America attended the WCG USA finals this year (mainly due to the fact EM LA was running at the same time too)
Teams in the past have missed WCG due to the scheduling. Halo3 was poorly represented this year etc.. it goes beyond CS but I know historically it was a CS issue as well.
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Since I've never tried to qualify for WCG, I have no idea how the system works, and therefore I don't know what's broken and what works. Could you explain the basic process for all of us? I assume that there is some sort of ladder, where the winners compete in a tournament, and from there, an offline tournament, but those are just guesses.
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On November 13 2008 03:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 03:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Regional event dates and locations need to be announced earlier. Gamers play in the online prelim without knowing if they can attend the regional prelim. Gamers have to pay more for plane tickets because of short notice and/or they have a greater inconvenience from job/school because of short notice. The earlier the date and location is solidified and announced, the more of these problems are alleviated.
Why doesn't USA send more people to the grand final? Even after we got first in 2007, we're still sending 1 player or team for nearly every game. If it's a matter of money, then is it possible to spend a bit less on the national finals?
I have heard that people aren't able to pay their own way to the grand finals because by the time the USA plays its national finals, the number of slots available for USA at the grand finals are already locked in. If the USA played the national final earlier, could this problem be fixed? I have noticed that USA is always one of the last countries to play its national finals...
Wouldn't we own Halo 3 at the grand final if the best MLG teams could actually play in WCG? Is there no way to fix this? A guaranteed gold medal would be really nice... These are all REALLY good ideas. This is the kind of post I am looking for. They discussed a new model for the prelims -> finals. The date issue is huge and I will make sure that it is one of the action issues raised during the conference. More slots (especially now) is an issue that I will discuss with them as well. Especially in conjunction with the date issue that allows for better MLG teams to participate. I know this is one of the reasons why top CS teams avoid WCG.. if that could be fixed USA would dominate each year in overall medals (imo).
It is from my understanding that MLG teams aren't allowed to participate at WCG due to their contracts, which enable them to compete only for and at MLG events. A similar thing is going on with CGS, but they seem to be a little more lenient on letting their contracted players compete outside of CGS as long as the players request is accepted by the organization.
Otherwise, you guys have got a lot of great ideas!
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national online prequalify > national offline qualify > grand finals
Right?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 13 2008 04:58 Colbi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2008 03:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On November 13 2008 03:53 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Regional event dates and locations need to be announced earlier. Gamers play in the online prelim without knowing if they can attend the regional prelim. Gamers have to pay more for plane tickets because of short notice and/or they have a greater inconvenience from job/school because of short notice. The earlier the date and location is solidified and announced, the more of these problems are alleviated.
Why doesn't USA send more people to the grand final? Even after we got first in 2007, we're still sending 1 player or team for nearly every game. If it's a matter of money, then is it possible to spend a bit less on the national finals?
I have heard that people aren't able to pay their own way to the grand finals because by the time the USA plays its national finals, the number of slots available for USA at the grand finals are already locked in. If the USA played the national final earlier, could this problem be fixed? I have noticed that USA is always one of the last countries to play its national finals...
Wouldn't we own Halo 3 at the grand final if the best MLG teams could actually play in WCG? Is there no way to fix this? A guaranteed gold medal would be really nice... These are all REALLY good ideas. This is the kind of post I am looking for. They discussed a new model for the prelims -> finals. The date issue is huge and I will make sure that it is one of the action issues raised during the conference. More slots (especially now) is an issue that I will discuss with them as well. Especially in conjunction with the date issue that allows for better MLG teams to participate. I know this is one of the reasons why top CS teams avoid WCG.. if that could be fixed USA would dominate each year in overall medals (imo). It is from my understanding that MLG teams aren't allowed to participate at WCG due to their contracts, which enable them to compete only for and at MLG events. A similar thing is going on with CGS, but they seem to be a little more lenient on letting their contracted players compete outside of CGS as long as the players request is accepted by the organization. Otherwise, you guys have got a lot of great ideas!
Ah that was something I didn't know / think about. Hopefully it can be worked on.. I will bounce this off of the WCG guys.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 13 2008 04:58 Senx wrote:
national online prequalify > national offline qualify > grand finals
Right?
I know you are responding to the guy who asked how it functions but to be honest this is a thread about fixing a situation that is important to gaming. If someone doesn't know anything about it.. I don't really want to hear their ideas.
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EPT
