EPTYOU"RE NOT BALANCED
2v2; The Forgotten Art - Page 5
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crazie-penguin
United States1253 Posts
YOU"RE NOT BALANCED | ||
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
 lol | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
On November 08 2008 21:11 Carnac wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Carnac/reps/2v2_Tenryu_DeA__TZ.rar thanks carnie! | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7584 Posts
Testie and mondi ... the good ole days. Somebody find mondi and make it happen, I would like to see if they could still put it down. I think some of these top teams would crush them .... at least in a bo5 | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
3v3 BGH was fun occasionally, but from the get to since ive been playing, it never seemed like that big of a deal. It wasnt like there were tons of strictly 2v2 tourneys ( i mean there were some from time to time, but nothing big). You had to depend on having people on....and then it became even more repative than 1 on 1.......and you had to rely on a partner in a game that you have already established in your mind as being 1v1...... its like playing team golf or team pool..... sure you can play and it might be fun sometimes but its more like let me control the damn ball/units. Im playing the game so I want to play. Basketball and other team games/sports even when you arent directly involved you can play a vital role in getting rebounds, picks, defense, passing, scoring, etc. | ||
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
It's just as versatile and so many matchups !!! But seriously, no team will crush us. We will fucking crush them. | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On November 09 2008 11:07 MYM.Testie wrote: How is it more repetitive than 1v1? It's just as versatile and so many matchups !!! But seriously, no team will crush us. We will fucking crush them. I dunno, in most games the tech never developed or just bleh..... If i play bw I wanna play not watch =-) | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7584 Posts
On November 09 2008 11:07 MYM.Testie wrote: How is it more repetitive than 1v1? It's just as versatile and so many matchups !!! But seriously, no team will crush us. We will fucking crush them. Testie don't wait for someone else to set it up, get ahold of mondi and post a challenge, it would provide good entertainment for the community and it would be pimp if u guys did still rock ^^;;. | ||
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Archerofauir
Afghanistan9 Posts
On November 06 2008 15:48 Xeris wrote: 2v2: The Forgotten Art Team matches in Brood War used to be much more popular than they are today, back in the day, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, it was not uncommon to have several team matches, 2v2 and even 3v3 games played in clanwars - I myself remember playing and witnessing some really epic matches. As time has gone on however, team play has gotten increasingly less attention eventually culminating in the recent announcement that this new season of Proleague would not feature 2v2 any longer. Unlike the game itself, 2v2 seems to be a dying art - there are few really strong, consistent 2v2 teams that are well known in the community, the ICCUP 2v2 ladder almost ALWAYS features the same people every season getting top ranks, and 2v2 matches are usually never heard of outside of WGTCL and BWCL. Why is it that 2v2 has declined so much from the glory days of Vanilla and early Brood War where it was hugely popular? The 2v2 Problem There are several reasons why I believe 2v2 is increasingly decreasing in popularity: 1) Lack of media attention - for example think about any report done on a league (whether it be WGTCL, BWCL, or even Proleague); and you will notice that the 2v2 gets little attention. The progamers who focus on 2v2 are usually much less known than their 1v1 counterparts, and the same goes for the foreign scene. 2) It may oftentimes difficult to follow the action in 2v2 games. One may argue that the game is intense enough with just two players battling, and with having to watch four players at a time, it often can get too confusing. Whatever the reasons behind it, one thing is certain: there are less and less 2v2 players every year. 3) It is hard to find good, stable partners. Since 2v2 is really about communication, finding a partner you can coordinate specific hours to play with may be difficult and lead to people not caring enough to play 2v2 seriously. 4) The lack of 2v2 (on ladders such as ICCUP) continues a downward spiral because it makes practicing much more difficult. 2v2 is Great - Try it! It is my goal to shed some light on the forgotten art that is 2v2. Not only is 2v2 faster paced and oftentimes more exciting than 1v1 games, the strategies employed are vastly different than 1v1, and the skillset is also incredibly different - 2v2 is a totally different game than 1v1. Some of the greatest 2v2 players are not even that good at 1v1, like Yan for example. Here are some features that make 2v2 different than 1v1: In 2v2, really high APM is not as important, teamwork and communication are key, and balancing between macro and micro is more vital than in 1v1. For example, in 1v1 games it is pretty standard for any race and matchup to pump workers nearly until you reach 130-150 supply, with short pauses in between as needed to work on maximizing troop count at certain moments of games; this is not necessarily the case in 2v2. In 2v2 games it is more important to find the perfect number of workers that will allow you to macro strongly off of one base (a lot of 2v2 is fast paced enough that one base play is common); terrans often go 4 barracks off one base, while you will almost never see that in a 1v1 game. Highlight: DeA and Tenryu I am now going to highlight a specific 2v2 team to make my case that 2v2 is awesome. Hopefully after reading this, some people will be swayed to start playing, following, and taking 2v2 more seriously! I have chosen DeA and Tenryu partially because they are in my team, so it was easy to access them and their replays, etc, but more so because they have become what I would argue, one of the best non Korean 2v2 teams in the community, and because their games are fun and entertaining to watch. Here is a quick bio of some of their accomplishments: * Reached A- rank on ICCUP in three (just reached A- this season) different seasons * Combined 13-2 record in BWCL the past two seasons * 4-0 against MYM 2v2 teams of Strelok+White-Ra and Strelok+DinOt VODS - DeA+Tenryu vs Yan+Nyana Game 1: DeA+Tenryu (ZT) vs Yan+Nyana (ZP) @ Python Part 1 Part 2 Game 2: DeA+Tenryu (ZT) vs Yan+Nyana (ZP) @ Python Part 1 Part 2 The Interview + Show Spoiler + The Interview Xeris: OK so you guys ready ? Tenryu: k Dea: ya im eating cereal Dea: go, gl hf Xeris: cool ok, start off with your guys' names since most people don't know you Dea: how dare they :D, ten go first Tenryu: Daniel Perez, last name is longer but.. dont feel like typing it Dea: James Moutafidis Xeris: how long have you guys been playing together ? Dea: i think 6 months Tenryu: same, a little more then 6 months Dea: cause when i got back from australia i was still 1v1ing and no 2v2ing Dea: i think our very first 2v2 together was vs MYM with like zero training Xeris: :D Tenryu: fo sho Xeris: ok so tell me the "story" how did you guys decide to partner up, was it love at first sight ? Tenryu: I was transition from 1v1 to 2v2 Dea: hahahaha Tenryu: and Dea was like B+ iccup and i guess I asked for ally? or something Dea: well I kinda knew tenryu was gosu 2v2 since he was pwning everyone up in the ladder. I didnt really like to play with him however cause I kinda hated having a Terran ally  I was more used to ZP and ZZ teamsTenryu: until u noticed all pro users = TZ team -_- or good teams = TZ team Dea: ya well tenryu showed me the basics of how TZ works so after that it was kinda easy to follow along Tenryu: i tried to give him basics, i just told him to do what i see my previous partner uT)Skyless do Xeris: cool cool Tenryu: but he B+ gosu in 1v1 so he caught on quick, then we just played alot cuz many ez wins and some ez losses, as with ever1 Dea: ya those random losses where we would be like "WTF how did that happen?" over ventrillo. Tenryu: indeed but we always talked over it and was like, "we'll think about how to fix this next time" or something Xeris: ok so Ten I know you used to be random what made you decide on sticking to terran with james instead of maybe doing ZP or something? Tenryu: lol well before i joined [light] i played alot 2x2 with uT)Skyless, we was in sfc_ at the time. I tried P and and stuff but my Terran was the best in 2x2 so i stuck to that for 1v1 Dea: its a good thing you did cause if u were P i would hate ZP mirror match-ups Tenryu: i did random but now i do T also just to help me out when i need to 2x1 Xeris: ok so what is your favorite matchup ? Tenryu: TZ v ZZ maybe Dea: lol nah id say vs PZ Tenryu: true PZ is funnest, ZZ is easiest Dea: id say we are more confident vs PZ Tenryu: and TZ v TZ is hard for me Dea: TZ mirror is really weird Tenryu: id say thats our weakest mu and it sucks becuz like 95% of the teams B+ ++ are TZ teams Xeris: ah Dea: yea true one thing that was hard for us with TZ mirror was when zergs would go for 1hatch mutas instead of the old 2hatch ramp. so learning how to play 1hatch mutas was kinda awkward Tenryu: Lol it seemd like after every1 watched reps of that dude that 107-1 on ICCup 2x2 they tried copy him and his allies, so every1 does 1h muta now Dea: but it is probably the best way to go, ya, SparkyzJS or something like that Tenryu: yeh we transitioned from 1h and 2h all the time didnt really kno how to play it or figure out how to Dea: thats kinda what made u use ur marines more without medics, u know? Xeris: alright so explain a little bit how 2v2 is different than 1v1 for those who dont know 2v2Dea: well I would say 2v2 is more micro-intense from the get-go Tenryu: u dont focus much on macro, I noticed from watchin many replays of us losing to Yan/Capigui, who are an insane 2x2 team that cutting SCVz is really important to control game early on. controlling the game is very important, and it uses teamwork obviously Tenryu: like 3-4 rine and 6 ling can take 2 zealot and 6 ling pretty easy depending on how well u and ur ally micro, actually we've taken 3 z and 6 ling at one pt with like 2-3 rine and 6 ling Dea: haha Xeris: ok so also it seems like a lot of 1v1 is based on macro late game style while 2v2 rarely gets to the late game stage, is it rare for you to play late game 2v2 ? and how does that look different than 1v1?Tenryu: when I was lookin at bwchart id say about 83% of who knows how many 2x2 games I've played its been under 12 minutes. I hate late game 2x2 Dea: I think on all iccup seasons weve played together we have an average of 10 minutes per game. I think we play very agressive for TZ and try to end the game as fast as possible; sometimes we overdo it Tenryu: late game 2x2 is kinda similar to 1v1 I think? idk, its real macro heavy and the main races, T or P need mass expos. I consider zerg more of a support while T and P macros zerg kinda just harasses and helps ally expand Dea: ya late game I would have to agree its much more important for the leading races to expo instead of the supporting ones. zerg only needs gas to increase his muta count Xeris: ok let's see, on to some more general 2v2 questions: what are your thoughts about the "2v2 scene", why is it so small? Tenryu: good question Dea: hmm, yea idk. I think its kinda hard to find a decent ally to train with and reach the level that you want Tenryu: I just think people dont consider 2x2 to have as much skill as 1x1. in some way it doesnt, and in some ways it involves more Dea: its a different type of skill and its got a different way of thinking Tenryu: like I've seen an A+ 1x1, forgot his name, he maybe was like 67% A+ and he was like 50% B- 2x2. being good 1x1 helps but its a team effotrt u cant 1x2 every game no matter how good u are, u are bound to lose to newbs 2x2 that u would normally own in 1x1 Xeris: :D! Dea: well most 1v1 players that try to 2v2 I think get caught up in playing macro-ish, they make too many workers which puts them behind in map control and army count Tenryu: yup, they play heavy worker style so they play late game when 2x2 is early game Dea: for instance I could play with 6-7 drones for 10 minutes producing lings non stop to get the edge Tenryu: I just think people think 2v2 involves no skill, thats the answer I get most of the time or what i see; after I win a 2v2, "lets 1v1, see whos better" Dea: haha Xeris: :D! Tenryu: If I wanted to 1v1 I'll play 1v1 games, not 2v2 games Dea: to play 2v2 I think you need to know what to do in alot of circumstances that may arise during the game Xeris: I dont know how much you follow the korean scene, but how do you feel about 2v2 being taken out of proleague ? Tenryu: but dea is right too, its hard to get a good ally to constantly play with Tenryu: I dont pay attention to the korean scene Dea: well I think it kinda sucks cause its always nice to see what the koreans can do in their 2v2 matches some weird strats !. but I think lately all 2v2 matches were PZ v PZ so that was kinda boring. iron curtain was a good 2v2 map tho nice games played on that mapXeris: yes it was! it was the coolest map ever Xeris: what do you think could be done to help the 2v2 scene grow maybe ? or what would you like to see? Dea: that match of nada + rock vs boxer + gorush i think, where nada won 1v2 after rock lost miserably Tenryu: 2v2 scene grow.. hmm Dea: more tournaments for sure Tenryu: yeh Dea: not just iccup tours Tenryu: I like bwcl's idea of 2 2x2 games however, maybe if more tournaments added that in there more people would train 2v2 to get some wins rather then just throw 2 1x1 players and hope for the best, because it IS a different type of play Xeris: so do you like that BWCL has 2 2v2s ? Tenryu: yeh I do Dea: it makes teams focus a bit more on 2v2 since thats 2 points per clanwar Xeris: ok so if you had to name maybe top 3-4 2v2 teams who would you name? Dea: well Tenryu: Yan/Capigui is definitely #1 imo Dea: I dont think anyone will argue that yan/capigui are #1 Tenryu: they hit A- with like 0 losses and A+ with 10, lol Dea: if we exclude sparkyzjs and his hypergosu zerg ally :D Tenryu: hmm #1 Yan/Capigui fuk, lol Dea: existminizerg + iesan are very good too Tenryu: its like same 10-15 people on top of charts on iccup every season Dea: dark + energy also Tenryu: dark + energy is good yeh Dea: they played vs us some weird-ass TZ strats Tenryu: dark has been allying dj recently but idk how good they are as a team Dea: and if we were to mention old teams, I think dahli/pythonas, gohan/fabian, ljt/xiaozi... there are also alot of 2v2 players that ally anyone that own pretty hard Tenryu: skyless has an awesome 2x2 zerg he pretty much allies any1 too tho. theres alot of ok players also but they talk alot of shit so I dont feel like mentioning them Dea: haha Tenryu: Ladder 2x2 has alot of cocky american players -_- Dea: its like east but with ranks Xeris: haha, ok let's see Dea: alot of DOJing too Xeris: what about the MB team you guys lost to ? like your only 2v2 loss ever :p Dea: hah yea Tenryu: for cw's yeah Xeris: except when you lost vs NrT lol Tenryu: cuz dea is dumb Dea: nrt was like bo1 so that doesnt count keke :D Tenryu: fo sho bo1 doesnt count -_- Dea: well vs MB it was weird. i think they were heavily favored by the maps, for a PT team to have 2 maps with dual gas mains its imba Tenryu: nah MB, Vampire + Hannibal - 2gas maps favor PT if they play right Tenryu: when we re'd on a 1gas map it was such ez win -_- Xeris: ok let's see what 2v2 team havent you played that you wish you could play ? Tenryu: but they played those maps right, they played it good Dea: yea, hmm Tenryu: I wanna play ljt/xiaozi, I havent played them yet Dea: probably mondie/testie if they were active as a team Tenryu: yeh that would be fun. any considered the best I wanna play Xeris: alright let's see Tenryu: :-O like we played mass games vs cap/yan, those were fun losses -_- Dea: LOL Xeris: how many times on a weekly basis do you sex hap's mom? Dea: losses by the dozen Tenryu: oh man hmm Dea: lol well she has helped us out in a lot of tough times Tenryu: indeed Dea: *hint* *hint* I think our new accounts Xeris: any last words / shout out etc ? Tenryu: HapsMom + HapsDad[LighT] Dea: ya Tenryu: wootage Xeris: ^_^ Dea: are a tribute too her sexyness Tenryu: last shout out huh Xeris: last words ?! Dea: STFU GTFO :D Dea: well I think anyone can reach B- 2v2 if they have a decent ally but after that, gl hf Tenryu: indeed, but more like STFU GTFO B cuz it requires more skill then u think -_- Dea: shoutouts? hmm Tenryu: TO MICHAEL JACKSON Xeris: go for it ! Tenryu: MY LOVER Dea: HAPS MOM Tenryu: I MISS YOU Dea: well shoutout to team light for being so pwnage Tenryu: wow on ur knees much Dea: :D Xeris: loool, thanks for teh interview =D Dea: i wanna shoutout too lindsey Tenryu: cya~ Xeris: hap's sister? =D Dea: NO U MORON LOL Xeris: thanks guys. KEEP OWNING Dea: thx oh and dont keep haps mom up too long tonight Dea: PAVLO ISE KEFTES ^^ plz mention that too Dea: Shoutout to the Greek community! Click the spoiler tag to read the full interview! Replay Pack Click >>HERE<< to download the replay pack!! Enjoy! <3 2v2! **PS : How do I embed the youtube videos? I want to post the vods!** Thanks~ If you enjoyed this, feel free to leave a comment: HERE. Thanks! You are trying to advertise how fun 2v2 is but why do you link to two horrible vods? The narrator even said one of the players had no clue what he was doing. And the reason no one likes to 2v2, because It's just Z/P vs Z/P obviously. | ||
MasterOfChaos
Germany2896 Posts
Main problem is that most people only know LT, Luna and Python -_- | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
Reviving 2v2...one....double cheese at a time! | ||
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Pads
England3228 Posts
It's just finding allys is really hard  KwarK, lets 2v2 more some time!! | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On November 08 2008 07:10 CharlieMurphy wrote: I support this thread, My old 2v2 Partner has since fell out of BW. His name was Sandster and he played terran on [Mech] west with me a lot. We owned. RIP Man. wait, spor??? | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
Sand Man! | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
I still remember that Estrella game ^_- | ||
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iiN.Glockl0
Jamaica24 Posts
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
On November 09 2008 20:23 Archerofauir wrote: You are trying to advertise how fun 2v2 is but why do you link to two horrible vods? The narrator even said one of the players had no clue what he was doing. And the reason no one likes to 2v2, because It's just Z/P vs Z/P obviously. There is probably just as many TZ teams as there are PZ teams.  | ||
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Rotodyne
United States2263 Posts
On November 09 2008 20:23 Archerofauir wrote: You are trying to advertise how fun 2v2 is but why do you link to two horrible vods? The narrator even said one of the players had no clue what he was doing. And the reason no one likes to 2v2, because It's just Z/P vs Z/P obviously. Did you happen notice that there aren't any ZvP vs. ZvP reps in that pack. | ||
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