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.kaz
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
1963 Posts
March 04 2008 15:52 GMT
#41
On March 05 2008 00:39 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2008 00:38 Chill wrote:
I've just never seen someone so vehemently defy a project when they have nothing to do with it.


well, now you have:-)


Spam more please.

Lets turn this from a "what if" / "we could" / "how about" thread into a "here's what we need done" / "Ill do this" thread. Chill, as it seems you've taken control of this thread, you could be the project leader if you're interested and have the time. Care writing a post in your opinion about what the first video(s) contents should contain?
Pressure - "rock is the defender of justice" 이병민 / 박영민 Hwaiting~
OctoPuSs
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Canada5279 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-04 16:22:29
March 04 2008 16:18 GMT
#42
On March 05 2008 00:16 Chill wrote:
You guys are acting like there's a million and one builds, there aren't. There's maybe four viable builds for each matchup:

PvP - 1 Gate, 2 Gate, Reaver, DT
PvT - 1 Gate range, Reaver, 2 Gate, DT.
PvZ - FE, 2 Gate, 1 Gate Reaver, 1 Gate Corsair

TvP - FD, Gundam, Joyo
TvT - Fact CC, 2 Fact, Fact Port, 2 Port
TvZ - 1 Rine CC, 2 Rax Acad CC, Tank rush, Sparks, Metal

ZvT - Kwanro, 2 Hatch Mutas, 3 Hatch Mutas, Lurkers.
ZvP - 9 Pool speed, 3 Hatch Mutas, 2-3 Hatch natural break, 4-5 Hatch Sauron into Lurkers
ZvZ - 9 Pool speed, 12 Pool gas, 12 Hatch (main/exp),

Sure, you can argue there are subtleties that change each build, both those 3-5 builds for each matchup cover 95% of Starcraft.

I don't think going over strategies and build orders in a turotial for spectators is the best of ideas. Like someone mentionned, I think we should do a lot like poker and explain very basic stuff. You could make a video for each race and go over all the units and explain their relevance in certain situations (supported by exemples ripped off replays or vods), their weaknesses and their strenghts. The casual spectator doesn't need to know the build orders. He just needs to understand the idea behind them as he sees them develop. Trust me if someone wants to learn more about the strategies, he'll play the game.

Commentators are usually the ones who explain the strategical aspect to the spectators.
Depression is just a sarcastic state of mind. Liquid`HerO Fighting!
Falcynn
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States3597 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-04 16:29:10
March 04 2008 16:28 GMT
#43
I agree that we probably don't need to go over build orders and detailed strategies. I think if we just make a tutorial about the basics of each races units/buildings and general (very general) basic strategy like the importance of expansions/flanking/micro/macro etc. Then that should probably be enough for people to learn to appreciate SC games. I say this mostly because I've shown some VOD's to friends/family, and after explaining to them those simple basics they fell in love with them.

Taking a que from that video, chess seems like an incredibly confusing game to anyone who's never played it before. However if you just describe to them how all the pieces are allowed to move, then most people will generally learn to appreciate all the setups and strategies pro chess players make (the only thing wrong with the game as a spectator sport is that it's turn based obviously, which luckily SC doesn't suffer from so it's alot easier to get excited about it).


Edit: this actually sounds like something I'd be interested in so I'll probably make a quick video sometime tonight showing what I'm talking about and hopefully you guys could give me some critisism.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary26004 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-04 16:39:58
March 04 2008 16:39 GMT
#44
On March 05 2008 01:18 OctoPuSs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2008 00:16 Chill wrote:
You guys are acting like there's a million and one builds, there aren't. There's maybe four viable builds for each matchup:

PvP - 1 Gate, 2 Gate, Reaver, DT
PvT - 1 Gate range, Reaver, 2 Gate, DT.
PvZ - FE, 2 Gate, 1 Gate Reaver, 1 Gate Corsair

TvP - FD, Gundam, Joyo
TvT - Fact CC, 2 Fact, Fact Port, 2 Port
TvZ - 1 Rine CC, 2 Rax Acad CC, Tank rush, Sparks, Metal

ZvT - Kwanro, 2 Hatch Mutas, 3 Hatch Mutas, Lurkers.
ZvP - 9 Pool speed, 3 Hatch Mutas, 2-3 Hatch natural break, 4-5 Hatch Sauron into Lurkers
ZvZ - 9 Pool speed, 12 Pool gas, 12 Hatch (main/exp),

Sure, you can argue there are subtleties that change each build, both those 3-5 builds for each matchup cover 95% of Starcraft.

I don't think going over strategies and build orders in a turotial for spectators is the best of ideas. Like someone mentionned, I think we should do a lot like poker and explain very basic stuff. You could make a video for each race and go over all the units and explain their relevance in certain situations (supported by exemples ripped off replays or vods), their weaknesses and their strenghts. The casual spectator doesn't need to know the build orders. He just needs to understand the idea behind them as he sees them develop. Trust me if someone wants to learn more about the strategies, he'll play the game.

Commentators are usually the ones who explain the strategical aspect to the spectators.


Why limit it? You have a basic and advanced tutorial. You're suggesting that more content (while still concise and appropriately categorized) is somehow going to detract from this project.

I'm sure there are tons of people that know Firebats > Zerglings too, and understand all the hard unit counters, but want to know a little more of the tactics of the game.

As for waiting for the commentators to discuss strategy or tactics, they don't. Tasteless is the best commentator by leaps and bounds and he still doesn't discuss this.
Moderator
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-04 18:39:42
March 04 2008 18:38 GMT
#45
I don't know if you guys have every watched a VOD with someone who has zero understanding of the game and explaining why the players are doing stuff. If you give them a crash course on "this is what this unit does and when these units get together they are really good against zerg" etc they get that much more into it. Dont you ladies worry about how we spread this across the internets, thats actually the easy part.

Ill compile a list at the beginning of who is interested.
Elric
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom1327 Posts
March 04 2008 19:38 GMT
#46
Just to post my message of support. As Kennigit has reiterated, I can personally vouch for how explaining a few simple concepts to someone who has little or no knowledge of SC makes it 6000x more interesting.

E.g. "why can't the Terrans fire at those invisible DT things?!!", "what is the point of killing those ugly floating squid things [overlord]" or "why did the crowd go crazy when the science vessel/dropship went down"

Btw. I would love to contribute but my SC knowledge is relatively extremely crap compared to most people here. As djwheat artfully put it, I'm one of those people who love watching Starcraft without playing it.
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21552 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-04 20:07:59
March 04 2008 19:40 GMT
#47
On March 05 2008 03:38 Kennigit wrote:
I don't know if you guys have every watched a VOD with someone who has zero understanding of the game and explaining why the players are doing stuff. If you give them a crash course on "this is what this unit does and when these units get together they are really good against zerg" etc they get that much more into it.

I'd recommend that everyone involved in this project actually does this, to see exactly what is needed.


For videos, highest priority probably goes to:

Terran units/buildings and terminology
Zerg units/buildings and terminology
Protoss units/buildings and terminology
General game concepts (supply, cloaking, burrow, splash damage, etc) and terminology

Those will let people understand what's going on at a basic level.

Then maybe tactics (microed vs unmicroed battles) so they can see just how good the pros are.


As far as I know, matchup stuff is generally explained in the actual game commentaries that folks like Diggity do. ("He's 9-pooling, this means..."). If they don't already do that, they should. :p

We have other ways of more efficiently covering matchup stuff and strategies in the works as well.
Administrator
Response
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States1938 Posts
March 04 2008 19:49 GMT
#48
On March 05 2008 04:40 SonuvBob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2008 03:38 Kennigit wrote:
I don't know if you guys have every watched a VOD with someone who has zero understanding of the game and explaining why the players are doing stuff. If you give them a crash course on "this is what this unit does and when these units get together they are really good against zerg" etc they get that much more into it.

I'd recommend that everyone involved in this project actually does this, to see exactly what is needed.


For videos, highest priority probably goes to:

Terran units/buildings and terminology
Zerg units/buildings and terminology
Terran units/buildings and terminology
General game concepts (supply, cloaking, burrow, splash damage, etc) and terminology

Those will let people understand what's going on at a basic level.

Then maybe tactics (microed vs unmicroed battles) so they can see just how good the pros are.


As far as I know, matchup stuff is generally explained in the actual game commentaries that folks like Diggity do. ("He's 9-pooling, this means..."). If they don't already do that, they should. :p

We have other ways of more efficiently covering matchup stuff and strategies in the works as well.


i think one of those three were supposed to be protoss:-)
the REAL ReSpOnSe
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary26004 Posts
March 04 2008 19:55 GMT
#49
Fuck Protoss. They make units and a-move. Nothing to explain.
Moderator
Response
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States1938 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-04 19:57:48
March 04 2008 19:57 GMT
#50
On March 05 2008 04:55 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
Fuck Protoss. They make units and a-move. Nothing to explain.


ROFL where did you quote this from? lol we also expand alot yo
the REAL ReSpOnSe
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21552 Posts
March 04 2008 20:08 GMT
#51
lmao
Administrator
fenner
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United Kingdom163 Posts
March 04 2008 20:12 GMT
#52
I started watching Starcraft when I was watching Blizzcon, I had never seen or played Starcraft before. Tasteless was commentating with "Bunny" who also didnt really have a clue. Bunny kept throwing noob questions at Tasteless which answered a lot of my questions and really got me into the game.
Zerg Strategy & Stuff www.youtube.com/fenn3r
useLess
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4781 Posts
March 04 2008 21:12 GMT
#53
On March 05 2008 00:33 Chill wrote:
(6) OR (9)You have six or eight 8-minute videos explaining the builds for each matchup. What they accomplish, how they are different than other builds. This would include the opening builds I mentioned above, as well as overarching strategies, such as SK versus 2 Fact. It's not a lot to go over.

"1 Rine CC is expanding with only a single Marine and Barracks. It is a risky build that relies on good scouting and the assumption that most Zergs play Hatchery first. Another build which gives a slightly slower expansion is 2 Rax Academy. In this build, the play waits until he is sure the Zerg player isn't rushing before stopping Marine production and expanding. This build is safer and will not lose to Pool-first rushes. It also allows Terran to move out earlier in the midgame as he will have Medics sooner than 1 Rine CC.

Terran also has the option of playing with a delayed expansion, instead trying to end the game early. One way of doing this is the Tank rush. Terran builds 2 Barracks, producing Marines, and then a Factor and finally an Academy. He produces a Tank, and moves out to Zerg's Sunken Colony line while Siege researches, looking to break through into Zerg's base before his Mutalisks or Lurkers are out to defend.

The final build which has fallen out of practise as of late is the Sync Sparks rush. This build relies on a fast +1 attack upgrade, and production from 3 Barracks. Terran looks to crash through the Sunken line with an overwhelming amount of infantry units before Zerg has Lurkers to defend. It is not uncomon to see Zerg players losing despite having upwards of 8 Sunken Colonies."

Done. Explained and you have enough time to go into SK versus 2 Fact with the remaining 3 miuntes.


And of course, we need to consider our audience. Who is this targetting? Will they understand the terminology thrown around? Its easy for many tl.net members to know whats going on, so we might be inclined to focus less on basics and more on advanced strategies and such; tutorials need to be clear and concise without overloading the viewer, and not too fast nor not too long.
Moonlight Shadow
Diggity
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States806 Posts
March 04 2008 21:19 GMT
#54
I have been planning on doing this for a reallllllly long time.

I talked to Chill ages ago about creating a video tutorial database.

I have some free time this week since there are no games until the weekend and just yankee league i n the meantime.

I think I will get a very basic how to watch guide up on youtube asap.

If anyone wants to assist please let me know.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary26004 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-04 21:48:59
March 04 2008 21:43 GMT
#55
Wait. In retrospect didn't I PM you saying that was a bad idea?

Fuck I need to reread those PMs and figuring out what I was thinking.

Edit: Okay they were slightly different projects with different goals in mind. Or at least that's how I understood it.

Edit: Again, I think there's no reason this can't be a team effort. I really think if people run over to Youtube and rush to put their own guides up, we're going to end up with 7 different versions that confuse people.

I mean, you're free to do what you want but my advice would be to work together on one collaberative version.
Moderator
SnowFantasy
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
4173 Posts
March 04 2008 21:50 GMT
#56
Yeah something like this would definitely be best to have a solid team working together on it. Several versions of this would kind of defeat the purpose (in my opinion).

This is a great idea, and I would like to help.
Diggity
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States806 Posts
March 04 2008 22:13 GMT
#57
I will hold off.

Chill: :/ Had basically this in mind. Oh well

This isn't exactly me hastily putting something up on youtube though. I have had it planned out for about 4 months now, (did I mention it in the pms Chill?) just haven't had time to do anything with it.

Still I agree. Its better to have a single unified guide than a scattered set of guides.

Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary26004 Posts
March 04 2008 22:21 GMT
#58
My understanding was that you wanted to train a bunch of newbs to bring more blood into the scene. Whoops.
Moderator
Aizen
Profile Joined September 2007
United States98 Posts
March 04 2008 22:23 GMT
#59
so basically a korean version of gg.nets database?
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
March 04 2008 22:35 GMT
#60
On March 05 2008 07:23 Aizen wrote:
so basically a korean version of gg.nets database?

lol no
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