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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I was watching Faces For Radio which is done by the same guys behind Epileptic Gaming. Its a good show that follows general gaming, news, community stuff. One of their callers phoned in about the GSI and i thought DjWheat's comments raised some interesting ideas for a community project we could start.
So i was going to do a big write up, but ill let the video speak for itself. The relevant part is from 18:30 to 22:00 so let it stream a bit. Since the announcement of SC2 we've already seen an influx of new users to the site and as we are dedicated to the progaming scene i think this has potential to be a cool community project that could spread beyond our little home on the internet.
I know theres alot of members who want to "give back" or do their share at the site and don't know how. This sort of project could be just for you.
If you are skeptical as to if this could work or its usefullness, ill tell you a quick story.... about a year ago Manifesto7 started a thread looking for volunteers for a project to compile a whole bunch of statistics for progaming. Thedeadhaji and I volunteered (neither of us staff, i think i had 400 posts) and created this massive Excel database of numbers. There wasn't a real direction for it and just a few brief ideas but we just just kind of ran with it. This of course evolved into the TLPD (thats the light version ofcourse, it was all actually programed by PoP and all our original work was scrapped haha).
So if this sort of project that DjWheat mentioned inspires you or your are looking to get involved with a project like this, post in this thread and we'll see where it takes us.
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That's a good idea. There's lots of tutorials for players wanting to improve, but nothing aimed at helping spectators understand the game.
As someone who only played War3 in the beta, I can't understand much of what's going on in pro War3 games (even the ones cast in English), so I can definitely see the need for some spectator tutorials for BW.
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Umm I'm not sure I follow. It sounds like he's just talking about having someone help noobs understand what's going on in a game, but isn't that what a commentator is for? Tasteless does a very good job of that.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Bob and i were just talking about why we have no interest in Warcraft 3 matches. Cause we don't know whats going on. Tasteless does do a good job, but in the interests of a growing community and the influx of users that will come with SC2 this falls in line with plans we are already working on. You have to think outside the box on this - its not about the people who are here learning its about the people who could want to learn but don't know where to start.
I watched a bunch of the GSI vods with some of my friends who haven't played SC in years. I was explaining different things to them between tasteless and there appreciation for what was going on increased 100x.
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A very good idea. I'd be tempted to try this, but I know little about making movies, and stuff like that. I'd like to try anyway I guess. I learned SC by watching a lot of VOD's. At first, I relied on english commentaries, by Diggity and Moletrap so I could understand, and I also browsed through the TL strategy forum, looking for tips. Basically, I learned slowly, a bit at a time, until I was brought up to speed. A video like what they were talking about would have helped me enormously in my understanding of the game.
==edit==
As for tasteless commentating GSI, I was talking to a friend of mine from high school. Apparently he'd been watching them, and he really liked it. He said that Tasteless made it a lot easier to understand, but it was clear that he (my friend) still had a long ways to go (especially about zerg, because there were practically no zerg in the invitational).
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Yeah, basically we could use a primer for folks who know little to nothing about the game (and maybe some less basic stuff too, like descriptions of the matchups and common strategies. That starts to overlap with existing tutorials).
When the poker craze started in America a few years ago, every poker show had a short description of the game and the terms used, for people who weren't familiar with holdem. We're suggesting the SC equivalent (which obviously requires a lot more material).
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One thing to think about is how you'll get this information to the people that want it. Searching starcraft on google doesn't bring you to TL, and just plopping it down on youtube won't do anything so the hard work put into these will be for nothing.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Don't worry, i got plenty of contacts
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Some quick points from the stream:
- Guy says whats missing from Starcraft community are tutorial videos.
- Strategies that people come up with makes the game so damn interesting.
- Potentially more audience interest if we show what each unit does, basic strats, etc; BW is just like any other sport.
Personally, I think it would be interesting to see this kind of stuff. Like at the very least, a video demonstrating each unit's capabilities and their roles in the game, with subsequent tutorials expanding on their roles in each matchup as well as strategies commonly used.
I wouldnt say its a big priority or anything, since thats what the single-player campaign does, but videos does accelerate learning. For example, I was a fairly bad player for a while: I would have one worker per mineral patch, and almost always build defensive structures first. The first Pimpest Plays was how I got into the progaming scene. Replays came around, and I watched those for hours, emulating and learning at the same time. I didnt know that tanks had range longer than their sight until someone explained why Terrans were floating their ebays out and such. Anyway, for two years, I didnt play at all; I simply watched and observed, but I eventually came out ten times better than I was before.
This is something that a few ambitious people can work on, and wouldnt require more than one or two persons to capture on video. One can record the game and then comment, or a team of two can comment and record at the same time. In addition, there should be standards in quality of the tutorials produced.
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I wanted to do something like this months ago. I'd like to help.
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I think Im gonna try a short demo later this week.
youtube clip on how to produce quality videos on camtasia:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Calgary25980 Posts
I'll help 100%. I think it's really simple what we need:
-1 video on basic gameplay (Mining, expanding, dropping, etc.)
-3 videos, one for each race.
-6 videos, one for each matchup (Note these videos might end up being longer than Youtube's limit, so there may be 100 videos but they would still fit together as "6" videos. These would be fairly specific, showing that 9 Pool beats Nexus first but can't beat Forge first)
-1-3 videos on advanced tactics (Micro, macro, timing, grouping, etc.)
EDIT: I would ask that no one jumps on this project by themselves. It needs to be a cohesive series that is a collaborative effort that is released in one big push.
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I think going even more basic than that is better chill, for instance videos on what the units and buildings actually do.
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On March 04 2008 22:54 Chill wrote:
I'll help 100%. I think it's really simple what we need:
-1 video on basic gameplay (Mining, expanding, dropping, etc.)
-3 videos, one for each race.
-6 videos, one for each matchup (Note these videos might end up being longer than Youtube's limit, so there may be 100 videos but they would still fit together as "6" videos. These would be fairly specific, showing that 9 Pool beats Nexus first but can't beat Forge first)
-1-3 videos on advanced tactics (Micro, macro, timing, grouping, etc.)
EDIT: I would ask that no one jumps on this project by themselves. It needs to be a cohesive series that is a collaborative effort that is released in one big push.
I also think that it would be nice to have a long but simple video on each key units micro like you said at the end. Like marine vs lurker, tank vs goon, zealot vs tank, reaver / shuttle, etc. Just explain what the goal of the micro is, and a quick showing of it, so when people see it in the games, they will appreciate it much more, as that is one of the key things that sets these people apart from everyone else.
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Im in, kennigit, make an application format so you pick out the best people that want to help.
I'll apply. This definetly sounds as something I can easily help in.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On March 04 2008 22:58 ATeddyBear wrote:
I think going even more basic than that is better chill, for instance videos on what the units and buildings actually do.
On March 04 2008 22:54 Chill wrote:
-3 videos, one for each race.
How is that not encompassed by this? Why would we limit the knowledge we're going to give people? We might as well put it all out there and they can watch what they want.
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is awesome32274 Posts
Just a side quick note. For showing micro or stuff that happens fast:
You could show microless battles to show how lurkers kills marines in an instant and then show marine micro killing lots of lurkers. This kind of approach to explaining things makes the "language" of the tutorial universal. Although I realize some things have to be written the more video + picture the more attractive it is for new people to see.
People get scared by walls of text.
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I just dont see why this is necessary, and also i really don't understand the point of having one for every matchup...you can't possibly explain all the details of every matchup in one video per match up
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Calgary25980 Posts
On March 04 2008 23:13 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
I just dont see why this is necessary, and also i really don't understand the point of having one for every matchup...you can't possibly explain all the details of every matchup in one video per match up
Sure you can.
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On March 04 2008 23:17 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2008 23:13 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
I just dont see why this is necessary, and also i really don't understand the point of having one for every matchup...you can't possibly explain all the details of every matchup in one video per match up Sure you can.
prove it
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just 2 examples of what im saying in 1 matchup, PvT, you have a reaver drop build and a DT build, also late game you can get carriers or you can get arbs, or both obv, but how can you effectively show all these different styles in 1 video?
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Sweden33719 Posts
I've been meaning to do something like this for a long time, so depending on how it's done, I guess I might as well join in, since I never get things started on my own anyway :D
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5673 Posts
I'll help with script writing, if needed.
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The difficulty of this project is to limit the tutorials so they do not become too epic and long. I don't think many noobs would have the patience to sit through hours of tutorial videos without getting bored. Plus, describing all kinds of openings and strategies will be too much and might standardize and limit the game for them. The thing I enjoyed while learning Starcraft was trying all different kinds of self-made builds and applying/refining them in a real game to get my own unique playstyle to surprise my opponents.
I'm not saying I'm against this project, but I don't think this will be be much easier for noobs than playing through the campaign, watch some replays/vods and then trying to compete on battle.net.
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On March 04 2008 23:50 Shauni wrote:
The difficulty of this project is to limit the tutorials so they do not become too epic and long. I don't think many noobs would have the patience to sit through hours of tutorial videos without getting bored. Plus, describing all kinds of openings and strategies will be too much and might standardize and limit the game for them. The thing I enjoyed while learning Starcraft was trying all different kinds of self-made builds and applying/refining them in a real game to get my own unique playstyle to surprise my opponents.
I'm not saying I'm against this project, but I don't think this will be be much easier for noobs than playing through the campaign, watch some replays/vods and then trying to compete on battle.net.
this is pretty much exactly how i feel, but if people would like to do some VOD's or w/e i would be more than happy to help and maybe we could do some together:-)
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I think examples of creativity could be shown in such a tutorial. The most exciting part of the game for me is the strategies and the build order adaptations and fun mindgames and tricks that go along with that. Although flashy micro like marine spread vs lurk or super spell casting might also be shown to first timers, I think that most people will appreciate those anyway, theyre quite spectacular.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On March 04 2008 23:21 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
just 2 examples of what im saying in 1 matchup, PvT, you have a reaver drop build and a DT build, also late game you can get carriers or you can get arbs, or both obv, but how can you effectively show all these different styles in 1 video?
? That's 4 things. You spend a minute on each and have 4 left over to do any other variants. Are for "prove it", well I can't without doing the entire project myself (which I already said I would help on). The underlying tactics in Starcraft are really easy to identify and really easy to explain. That's why the game is such a good spectactor sport - it's easier to play with perfect information and impossible to play without perfect information.
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Well its not like most of the material isn't already here. There are thousands of replays and thousands of VODs, you've pretty much got all the footage you need, Just need a script, people to make the videos sexy, and the few clips you don't have.
Example:
Non micro'd marines vs lurkers (make yourself quick) - All the marines die within a few seconds.
Pro VOD (possibly fpvod) - Good rine split and attack, killing all lurks and losing minimal marines
Its a huge project and alot of work, but it would not only help the people watching starcraft, but those just now getting into it for SC2. Improving/Growing the community in the process :D
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On March 05 2008 00:11 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2008 23:21 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
just 2 examples of what im saying in 1 matchup, PvT, you have a reaver drop build and a DT build, also late game you can get carriers or you can get arbs, or both obv, but how can you effectively show all these different styles in 1 video? ? That's 4 things. You spend a minute on each and have 4 left over to do any other variants. Are for "prove it", well I can't without doing the entire project myself (which I already said I would help on). The underlying tactics in Starcraft are really easy to identify and really easy to explain. That's why the game is such a good spectactor sport - it's easier to play with perfect information and impossible to play without perfect information.
its 2 different examples, but with each example i needed 2 different scenarios, does that make sense?
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Calgary25980 Posts
You guys are acting like there's a million and one builds, there aren't. There's maybe four viable builds for each matchup:
PvP - 1 Gate, 2 Gate, Reaver, DT
PvT - 1 Gate range, Reaver, 2 Gate, DT.
PvZ - FE, 2 Gate, 1 Gate Reaver, 1 Gate Corsair
TvP - FD, Gundam, Joyo
TvT - Fact CC, 2 Fact, Fact Port, 2 Port
TvZ - 1 Rine CC, 2 Rax Acad CC, Tank rush, Sparks, Metal
ZvT - Kwanro, 2 Hatch Mutas, 3 Hatch Mutas, Lurkers.
ZvP - 9 Pool speed, 3 Hatch Mutas, 2-3 Hatch natural break, 4-5 Hatch Sauron into Lurkers
ZvZ - 9 Pool speed, 12 Pool gas, 12 Hatch (main/exp),
Sure, you can argue there are subtleties that change each build, both those 3-5 builds for each matchup cover 95% of Starcraft.
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On March 05 2008 00:16 Chill wrote:
You guys are acting like there's a million and one builds, there aren't. There's maybe four viable builds for each matchup:
PvP - 1 Gate, 2 Gate, Reaver, DT
PvT - 1 Gate range, Reaver, 2 Gate, DT.
PvZ - FE, 2 Gate, 1 Gate Reaver, 1 Gate Corsair
TvP - FD, Gundam, Joyo
TvT - Fact CC, 2 Fact, Fact Port, 2 Port
TvZ - 1 Rine CC, 2 Rax Acad CC, Tank rush, Sparks, Metal
ZvT - Kwanro, 2 Hatch Mutas, 3 Hatch Mutas, Lurkers.
ZvP - 9 Pool speed, 3 Hatch Mutas, 2-3 Hatch natural break, 4-5 Hatch Sauron into Lurkers
ZvZ - 9 Pool speed, 12 Pool gas, 12 Hatch (main/exp),
Sure, you can argue there are subtleties that change each build, both those 3-5 builds for each matchup cover 95% of Starcraft.
so you want to make a tutorial for each one of these...? This is still ALOT to go over considering you will need other VOD's explaining how units work, what buildings build what unit, and whatever else people that have never played the game need to know
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I'm not saying it isnt possible, but will newbs really want to spend 8-10 hours watching "tutorials" just to be able to watch a proleague game? I tend to think not
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He's not saying there are going to be detailed 1 hour games on every single matchup, a quick overview would be fine for people just getting into it. You seem like you're arguing just to argue. If you don't like the idea / want to help, don't.
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On March 05 2008 00:31 .kaz wrote:
He's not saying there are going to be detailed 1 hour games on every single matchup, a quick overview would be fine for people just getting into it. You seem like you're arguing just to argue. If you don't like the idea / want to help, don't.
im not really arguing just to argue im just showing how much work a project like this could take though if people want to do it (even though it may never become that popular) go for it!
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Calgary25980 Posts
Please stop coming into all of these quotes with a negative outlook. It's not hard.
(3)You have one 8-minute video explaining how all the Protoss units and buildings work. Another for Terran and another for Zerg.
(6) OR (9)You have six or eight 8-minute videos explaining the builds for each matchup. What they accomplish, how they are different than other builds. This would include the opening builds I mentioned above, as well as overarching strategies, such as SK versus 2 Fact. It's not a lot to go over.
"1 Rine CC is expanding with only a single Marine and Barracks. It is a risky build that relies on good scouting and the assumption that most Zergs play Hatchery first. Another build which gives a slightly slower expansion is 2 Rax Academy. In this build, the play waits until he is sure the Zerg player isn't rushing before stopping Marine production and expanding. This build is safer and will not lose to Pool-first rushes. It also allows Terran to move out earlier in the midgame as he will have Medics sooner than 1 Rine CC.
Terran also has the option of playing with a delayed expansion, instead trying to end the game early. One way of doing this is the Tank rush. Terran builds 2 Barracks, producing Marines, and then a Factor and finally an Academy. He produces a Tank, and moves out to Zerg's Sunken Colony line while Siege researches, looking to break through into Zerg's base before his Mutalisks or Lurkers are out to defend.
The final build which has fallen out of practise as of late is the Sync Sparks rush. This build relies on a fast +1 attack upgrade, and production from 3 Barracks. Terran looks to crash through the Sunken line with an overwhelming amount of infantry units before Zerg has Lurkers to defend. It is not uncomon to see Zerg players losing despite having upwards of 8 Sunken Colonies."
Done. Explained and you have enough time to go into SK versus 2 Fact with the remaining 3 miuntes.
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okay i'm done arguing chill wins! whoever is going to do this GL!
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There has to be ONE tightly packed video showcasing the basics and the races, because most people won't watch more than a 5-10 minute tutorial(when was the last time you didn't skip a tutorial in a game?) and will get bored it or even decide the game is too complex to follow.
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Calgary25980 Posts
I've just never seen someone so vehemently defy a project when they have nothing to do with it.
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On March 05 2008 00:38 Chill wrote:
I've just never seen someone so vehemently defy a project when they have nothing to do with it.
well, now you have:-)
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5673 Posts
Chill's plan looks pretty solid to me. I'd be happy to convert the strategies to dialogues (two people maybe?), if I'm given an official (TL approved) set to work with. It would make sense to have someone play each build and record the FPVOD (the player would have to play slower than normal, obviously). After that, we can just have two casters voice over the recording? I feel dual commentary will work best here, since it will provide a little variety and make it easier to follow.
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On March 05 2008 00:39 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2008 00:38 Chill wrote:
I've just never seen someone so vehemently defy a project when they have nothing to do with it. well, now you have:-)
Spam more please.
Lets turn this from a "what if" / "we could" / "how about" thread into a "here's what we need done" / "Ill do this" thread. Chill, as it seems you've taken control of this thread, you could be the project leader if you're interested and have the time. Care writing a post in your opinion about what the first video(s) contents should contain?
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On March 05 2008 00:16 Chill wrote:
You guys are acting like there's a million and one builds, there aren't. There's maybe four viable builds for each matchup:
PvP - 1 Gate, 2 Gate, Reaver, DT
PvT - 1 Gate range, Reaver, 2 Gate, DT.
PvZ - FE, 2 Gate, 1 Gate Reaver, 1 Gate Corsair
TvP - FD, Gundam, Joyo
TvT - Fact CC, 2 Fact, Fact Port, 2 Port
TvZ - 1 Rine CC, 2 Rax Acad CC, Tank rush, Sparks, Metal
ZvT - Kwanro, 2 Hatch Mutas, 3 Hatch Mutas, Lurkers.
ZvP - 9 Pool speed, 3 Hatch Mutas, 2-3 Hatch natural break, 4-5 Hatch Sauron into Lurkers
ZvZ - 9 Pool speed, 12 Pool gas, 12 Hatch (main/exp),
Sure, you can argue there are subtleties that change each build, both those 3-5 builds for each matchup cover 95% of Starcraft.
I don't think going over strategies and build orders in a turotial for spectators is the best of ideas. Like someone mentionned, I think we should do a lot like poker and explain very basic stuff. You could make a video for each race and go over all the units and explain their relevance in certain situations (supported by exemples ripped off replays or vods), their weaknesses and their strenghts. The casual spectator doesn't need to know the build orders. He just needs to understand the idea behind them as he sees them develop. Trust me if someone wants to learn more about the strategies, he'll play the game.
Commentators are usually the ones who explain the strategical aspect to the spectators.
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I agree that we probably don't need to go over build orders and detailed strategies. I think if we just make a tutorial about the basics of each races units/buildings and general (very general) basic strategy like the importance of expansions/flanking/micro/macro etc. Then that should probably be enough for people to learn to appreciate SC games. I say this mostly because I've shown some VOD's to friends/family, and after explaining to them those simple basics they fell in love with them.
Taking a que from that video, chess seems like an incredibly confusing game to anyone who's never played it before. However if you just describe to them how all the pieces are allowed to move, then most people will generally learn to appreciate all the setups and strategies pro chess players make (the only thing wrong with the game as a spectator sport is that it's turn based obviously, which luckily SC doesn't suffer from so it's alot easier to get excited about it).
Edit: this actually sounds like something I'd be interested in so I'll probably make a quick video sometime tonight showing what I'm talking about and hopefully you guys could give me some critisism.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On March 05 2008 01:18 OctoPuSs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2008 00:16 Chill wrote:
You guys are acting like there's a million and one builds, there aren't. There's maybe four viable builds for each matchup:
PvP - 1 Gate, 2 Gate, Reaver, DT
PvT - 1 Gate range, Reaver, 2 Gate, DT.
PvZ - FE, 2 Gate, 1 Gate Reaver, 1 Gate Corsair
TvP - FD, Gundam, Joyo
TvT - Fact CC, 2 Fact, Fact Port, 2 Port
TvZ - 1 Rine CC, 2 Rax Acad CC, Tank rush, Sparks, Metal
ZvT - Kwanro, 2 Hatch Mutas, 3 Hatch Mutas, Lurkers.
ZvP - 9 Pool speed, 3 Hatch Mutas, 2-3 Hatch natural break, 4-5 Hatch Sauron into Lurkers
ZvZ - 9 Pool speed, 12 Pool gas, 12 Hatch (main/exp),
Sure, you can argue there are subtleties that change each build, both those 3-5 builds for each matchup cover 95% of Starcraft. I don't think going over strategies and build orders in a turotial for spectators is the best of ideas. Like someone mentionned, I think we should do a lot like poker and explain very basic stuff. You could make a video for each race and go over all the units and explain their relevance in certain situations (supported by exemples ripped off replays or vods), their weaknesses and their strenghts. The casual spectator doesn't need to know the build orders. He just needs to understand the idea behind them as he sees them develop. Trust me if someone wants to learn more about the strategies, he'll play the game. Commentators are usually the ones who explain the strategical aspect to the spectators.
Why limit it? You have a basic and advanced tutorial. You're suggesting that more content (while still concise and appropriately categorized) is somehow going to detract from this project.
I'm sure there are tons of people that know Firebats > Zerglings too, and understand all the hard unit counters, but want to know a little more of the tactics of the game.
As for waiting for the commentators to discuss strategy or tactics, they don't. Tasteless is the best commentator by leaps and bounds and he still doesn't discuss this.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I don't know if you guys have every watched a VOD with someone who has zero understanding of the game and explaining why the players are doing stuff. If you give them a crash course on "this is what this unit does and when these units get together they are really good against zerg" etc they get that much more into it. Dont you ladies worry about how we spread this across the internets, thats actually the easy part.
Ill compile a list at the beginning of who is interested.
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Just to post my message of support. As Kennigit has reiterated, I can personally vouch for how explaining a few simple concepts to someone who has little or no knowledge of SC makes it 6000x more interesting.
E.g. "why can't the Terrans fire at those invisible DT things?!!", "what is the point of killing those ugly floating squid things [overlord]" or "why did the crowd go crazy when the science vessel/dropship went down"
Btw. I would love to contribute but my SC knowledge is relatively extremely crap compared to most people here. As djwheat artfully put it, I'm one of those people who love watching Starcraft without playing it.
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On March 05 2008 03:38 Kennigit wrote:
I don't know if you guys have every watched a VOD with someone who has zero understanding of the game and explaining why the players are doing stuff. If you give them a crash course on "this is what this unit does and when these units get together they are really good against zerg" etc they get that much more into it.
I'd recommend that everyone involved in this project actually does this, to see exactly what is needed.
For videos, highest priority probably goes to:
Terran units/buildings and terminology
Zerg units/buildings and terminology
Protoss units/buildings and terminology
General game concepts (supply, cloaking, burrow, splash damage, etc) and terminology
Those will let people understand what's going on at a basic level.
Then maybe tactics (microed vs unmicroed battles) so they can see just how good the pros are.
As far as I know, matchup stuff is generally explained in the actual game commentaries that folks like Diggity do. ("He's 9-pooling, this means..."). If they don't already do that, they should. :p
We have other ways of more efficiently covering matchup stuff and strategies in the works as well.
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On March 05 2008 04:40 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2008 03:38 Kennigit wrote:
I don't know if you guys have every watched a VOD with someone who has zero understanding of the game and explaining why the players are doing stuff. If you give them a crash course on "this is what this unit does and when these units get together they are really good against zerg" etc they get that much more into it. I'd recommend that everyone involved in this project actually does this, to see exactly what is needed. For videos, highest priority probably goes to: Terran units/buildings and terminology Zerg units/buildings and terminology Terran units/buildings and terminology General game concepts (supply, cloaking, burrow, splash damage, etc) and terminology Those will let people understand what's going on at a basic level. Then maybe tactics (microed vs unmicroed battles) so they can see just how good the pros are. As far as I know, matchup stuff is generally explained in the actual game commentaries that folks like Diggity do. ("He's 9-pooling, this means..."). If they don't already do that, they should. :p We have other ways of more efficiently covering matchup stuff and strategies in the works as well.
i think one of those three were supposed to be protoss:-)
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Calgary25980 Posts
Fuck Protoss. They make units and a-move. Nothing to explain.
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On March 05 2008 04:55 Chill wrote:
ROFL where did you quote this from? lol we also expand alot yo
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I started watching Starcraft when I was watching Blizzcon, I had never seen or played Starcraft before. Tasteless was commentating with "Bunny" who also didnt really have a clue. Bunny kept throwing noob questions at Tasteless which answered a lot of my questions and really got me into the game.
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On March 05 2008 00:33 Chill wrote:
(6) OR (9)You have six or eight 8-minute videos explaining the builds for each matchup. What they accomplish, how they are different than other builds. This would include the opening builds I mentioned above, as well as overarching strategies, such as SK versus 2 Fact. It's not a lot to go over.
"1 Rine CC is expanding with only a single Marine and Barracks. It is a risky build that relies on good scouting and the assumption that most Zergs play Hatchery first. Another build which gives a slightly slower expansion is 2 Rax Academy. In this build, the play waits until he is sure the Zerg player isn't rushing before stopping Marine production and expanding. This build is safer and will not lose to Pool-first rushes. It also allows Terran to move out earlier in the midgame as he will have Medics sooner than 1 Rine CC.
Terran also has the option of playing with a delayed expansion, instead trying to end the game early. One way of doing this is the Tank rush. Terran builds 2 Barracks, producing Marines, and then a Factor and finally an Academy. He produces a Tank, and moves out to Zerg's Sunken Colony line while Siege researches, looking to break through into Zerg's base before his Mutalisks or Lurkers are out to defend.
The final build which has fallen out of practise as of late is the Sync Sparks rush. This build relies on a fast +1 attack upgrade, and production from 3 Barracks. Terran looks to crash through the Sunken line with an overwhelming amount of infantry units before Zerg has Lurkers to defend. It is not uncomon to see Zerg players losing despite having upwards of 8 Sunken Colonies."
Done. Explained and you have enough time to go into SK versus 2 Fact with the remaining 3 miuntes.
And of course, we need to consider our audience. Who is this targetting? Will they understand the terminology thrown around? Its easy for many tl.net members to know whats going on, so we might be inclined to focus less on basics and more on advanced strategies and such; tutorials need to be clear and concise without overloading the viewer, and not too fast nor not too long.
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I have been planning on doing this for a reallllllly long time.
I talked to Chill ages ago about creating a video tutorial database.
I have some free time this week since there are no games until the weekend and just yankee league i n the meantime.
I think I will get a very basic how to watch guide up on youtube asap.
If anyone wants to assist please let me know.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Wait. In retrospect didn't I PM you saying that was a bad idea?
Fuck I need to reread those PMs and figuring out what I was thinking.
Edit: Okay they were slightly different projects with different goals in mind. Or at least that's how I understood it.
Edit: Again, I think there's no reason this can't be a team effort. I really think if people run over to Youtube and rush to put their own guides up, we're going to end up with 7 different versions that confuse people.
I mean, you're free to do what you want but my advice would be to work together on one collaberative version.
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Yeah something like this would definitely be best to have a solid team working together on it. Several versions of this would kind of defeat the purpose (in my opinion).
This is a great idea, and I would like to help.
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I will hold off.
Chill: :/ Had basically this in mind. Oh well
This isn't exactly me hastily putting something up on youtube though. I have had it planned out for about 4 months now, (did I mention it in the pms Chill?) just haven't had time to do anything with it.
Still I agree. Its better to have a single unified guide than a scattered set of guides.
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Calgary25980 Posts
My understanding was that you wanted to train a bunch of newbs to bring more blood into the scene. Whoops.
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so basically a korean version of gg.nets database?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On March 05 2008 07:23 Aizen wrote:
so basically a korean version of gg.nets database?
lol no
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Wait did he just insinuate we are copying GG LOL
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I just played around with Camtasia Studio's recording stuff, took me maybe 20 minutes to figure it out and make a 7 1/2 minute video about the terran units. Granted, the audio is pretty bad and I had awkward pauses etc, but I just wanted to get a feel for what I'd be showing. I think we're gonna need a LOT of videos though, because it took me that long just to explain all the units, show their attack ranges and abilities... nothing about strategy or unit uses or anything like that.
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My understanding was that you wanted to train a bunch of newbs to bring more blood into the scene. Whoops.
Eventually that but starting with this.
I guess in retrospect that was subtlety different in presentation. Meh. *shrug
As far as I know, matchup stuff is generally explained in the actual game commentaries that folks like Diggity do. ("He's 9-pooling, this means..."). If they don't already do that, they should
We try to directly say or insinuate generally depending. :/
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Canada138 Posts
One thing I don't really get when reading the thread is: how are you planning to deliver those tutorials to people who need them?
-Do I need to be proactive and search the web for it, find TeamLiquid.net and watch the videos?
-Should I get the information first time I'm looking at a vod / live stream?
-Should it be integrated directly into live streams from GSI? (if we take GSI as an example)
For example instead of having an ad before the game, you've got a 30 - 45 secs video showing the general concepts of the game (one on one, destroy the other, build an army, resource concept, technology concept...)
And if you want to go further, during the game presentation you can show stuff specific to the match up. That way you don't have to watch everything at once and get borred.
Or when the games are announced, you'll get a teaser video with that kind of content announcing the game to a broader audience.
All comments on this thread are great but it just looks like you are all looking into tiny details already when focus should be on:
-Who do we want to provide tutorial to?
-What would be the smallest thing we absolutely need to provide for it to be worthwhile? (have an idea of all the things to be done but aim at delivering something very tiny first to prove concept)
-How would you provide that?
Anyway, sounds like a really cool project.
Have fun guys 
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If this goes through, every strat we see from lower-tier players will be from these videos. They will lose even more from predictability. Haha
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@JellyCat:
-Do I need to be proactive and search the web for it, find TeamLiquid.net and watch the videos?
-Should I get the information first time I'm looking at a vod / live stream?
-Should it be integrated directly into live streams from GSI? (if we take GSI as an example)
imo, we should just compile a tutorial database and have it available on tl.net through youtube. this can bring traffic through web searches and youtube. as for integration into vods and live streams, i think thats probably too much work for little payoff. the way i see it atm is just community-produced videos, so it would feel amateur at some points and wouldnt fit into professional games. previews or recaps would be better if they simply included highlights from earlier games, and not a 4-5 minute clip on a specific strategy.
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Yeah, Diggity and I have been planning this for a long time. Neither of us have had the time to implement it lately, but we have been slowly discussing and hammering out what we were going to do.. how simple we wanted to get, how detailed, what structure...
I'm not saying we've claimed rights to it or anything, I'm just backing up what Dig said 'for the record' so people don't get all "omfg idea hax" later on.
As for what Chill said, yes, we have also been doing other starcraft tutoring stuff, but also looking into this.
Edit: Also, yeah, we kindof mention some stuff in our commentaries, but as Kennigit said, if you've ever watched with someone who has NO clue what's going on at all... They need lots of initial explanation before the build orders, etc, will mean anything.
It's like when I watch War3.... I played it a little when it came out so I can appreciate battles going on, but I have no idea what's going on when I watch and don't even remember what buildings do.
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How about a TL Database? Something like TLPD with community editability like wiki. We can have strat sections under which simple tutorial videos would go under as well as cover strat write-ups and pretty much everything inbetween. I guess a big issue with that is abusing the articles but I'm sure there's a way to regulate that.
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This idea sounds really awesome. I've always wanted a way to introduce my newb CS friends to starcraft without them being all *cry cry* "too hard" *cry cry*
Sounds really good.
Should get Dyo to do the actual videos
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SC wiki sounds like a good idea, and if the links need futher explanations a video can be provided
the Wiki would first of all lay a framework for what videos would be needed. If anything the wiki would be a great brain stormer
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I gave a few unscripted tries, but because I was playing and explaining at the same time, I think I came off as rambling too much and not being informative enough.
Pro-tip: Script out the dialogue, or at least a general idea of what to say.
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i guess many of the things i'll write now have already been said, so i want to apologize for that.
Imo, a wikipedia kind of approach would be best, because it would enable foreign 'pros' to make a short vod, explain it a few words and upload it-the more people work on it the longer it 'lives'
On the other hand it should be a part of teamliquid if not a part of TLPD, because
teamliquid is working because of the great mods, and something as big as a tutorial-database has to ensure the same quality or it won't work. Imo there are two things that have to be done by a mod:
1) quality insurance-deleting very bad tutorials(if its a wiki everyone can contribute), restructuring bad tuts, getting in contact with the guy who made it and ecourage him to make it better etc
2) promoting the database to both 'writers'who can add value (pros semipros casters gom etc) and 'readers'...
So who will be a 'reader' of a strategic-tutorial database?
I think it wiill be people who are interested in e-sports and want to make the change to sc, there are alot of people who watch warcraft, counterstrike or we and dont get into sc because it seems to complicated.
Some days ago i watched the VOD of bisu vs flash on fantasy, with my girlfriend(she likes to play 'professional' ssbm and mario kart etc). She could recognice what was going on and that something unusual happened and that it was very breathtaking. But she didnt understand why things shaped up like this- and why the battles where different than in the other tvps she has seen (hidden expo on island, reaver harras doenst make damage, push before arbiters, etc). She frequently uses tlpd to see what happens in the scene and knows that katrina is imba tvp etc. But afterall she doenst really understand what happens in the game because she never played it and never will. I think this are the people we want to reach with the tutorial-database. People who are interested in e-sports but cant get into it because it seems to complicated.
We can suck them in on the drama, the stats and the glory through tlpd (someone who just wachted a match from flash will go on tlpd and and he will know that flash destroys everyone right now) but without tutorials on the game itself they will never get into the game part.
So please guys make it possible that my girlfriend can find out whats going on inside the game. Make it that if she searches for flash in tlpd she can find a link or something where she can find out about his tactics etc.
i wish u the best, i know teamliquid owns all and i am confident that the database will get superb.
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I just want to echo that I also disagree that taking 5 minutes per viable build order will be of interest to the newcomers. Think again with how the poker craze started in the US. Did you hear them start off discussing Sklansky's Gap principle? I don't think so. Keep the intro video to what's going on with Starcraft to the basic elements of the game - not all the specific strategies and build orders. When people understand the different units and races features, macro, micro, multi-tasking, etc. they will begin to understand the game more. So then when a dropship full of units is killed, you can explain to them in terms they now understand - or some of the more interested ones will be able to understand it themselves.
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I have recently been teaching some of my newb friends the beauty of sc and convincing some others to try it for the first time. One thing I have to warn you about is intricacy. I guarantee that if you go into build orders and whatnot your audience will get bored almost immediately. This is not to say that there should not be this information available. Just make sure you keep it hidden until the audience WANTS to hear about it. I tried to jump right in and explain the 2 rax expo build to and friend and he stopped me to ask what a cc is (we tend to forget how far we've come).
If this is designed to take complete, never-seen-the-game-before people and turn them into understanding viewers who can see what the players are doing, follow their strategies, and even spot possible dangers/mistakes, then there will have to be ALOT of video time. You must think back to the time when you sat behind 1234173 cannons and whored carriers, and even before then when you didnt even know what high templars were supposed to do.
I think the keys will be keeping interest and organization of the videos.
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On March 05 2008 12:36 caution.slip wrote:
SC wiki sounds like a good idea, and if the links need futher explanations a video can be provided
the Wiki would first of all lay a framework for what videos would be needed. If anything the wiki would be a great brain stormer
liquipedia!!!
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Great idea............. I have plenty of buddies who played the og SC in noobtasic BGH games with others who have never played but love to watch pro games.
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EPT
