So I just watched the OSL finals between Garimto and Skelton in 2000.
Its rather amusing in a "what the hell did they do back then" kinda way (especially the costumes, pretty awesome). But honestly, even though I'm sure there were some quality games back then, this particular series would do a horrible job of convincing anyone on that point. Game 1
is probably the worst professional televised game ever played. Its the only game I've ever watched where I thought to myself "Dude, I could have done better than this". I shook my head in disbelief as Skelton ran around his speedlings in Garimtos base for 2 straight minutes doing nothing at all but losing the occasional ling. Dude, you have speedlings in a protoss base and you're a progamer on TV! On top of that he goes 1 hatch lurker (!), bumbles his first lurker around and takes a bunch of damage from zealots (!) (above ground!) and then proceeds to lose it to a cannon. The second fares little better. Right afterwards 2 hydralisks are lost in a display of un-micro that I wouldn't expect to see from a Bnet pubbie.
I know the level of play has risen tremendously. By enormous leaps and bounds. I know this is pre-Boxer, and I know build orders and maps were extremely unstandardized and that players nowadays have a huge resource pool and history to craft their play with. But still, its a little jarring to think that an OSL finalist was once basically playing on a level lower than many ICCUP players, or hell, some bnet players.
Watching this video has also made me immensely grateful to Boxer and it truly hits home how important he was (and many of his contemporaries).
It isn't Boxer's achievement that people are playing way better these days. You obviously don't know Blizzard released the replay feature with the 1.08 patch in the middle of 2001. The sudden availability of replays revolutionized the possibilities of analysing your play.
That match is made of Gold, their clothes are epic, the map is epic. Best game of the year, I was just inspired to play terran. Thank You Boxer, Thank you Nada, Thank you Oov, Thank you Savior, Thank you Bisu. Without all of you, SC wouldnt be like this today
is probably the worst professional televised game ever played. Its the only game I've ever watched where I thought to myself "Dude, I could have done better than this". I shook my head in disbelief as Skelton ran around his speedlings in Garimtos base for 2 straight minutes doing nothing at all but losing the occasional ling. Dude, you have speedlings in a protoss base and you're a progamer on TV!
-> garimto had his mineral line covered with zeals. do you want him to magically voodoo all of garimtos probes to death?
On top of that he goes 1 hatch lurker (!)
-> was a natural follow up to 9pool back in the day
bumbles his first lurker around and takes a bunch of damage from zealots (!) (above ground!)
-> because they came across the morphing egg? not even the best player in the world could have kept in full health here
and then proceeds to lose it to a cannon.
-> it was a judgment call on whether it would make it past the cannon. u cant claim that players dont make mistakes these days so why couldnt they make mistakes 8 years ago
The second fares little better.
-> he tried to run it around the zeal and took a couple of hits. big deal.
Right afterwards 2 hydralisks are lost in a display of un-micro that I wouldn't expect to see from a Bnet pubbie.
-> they were unupgraded hydra trapped outside of his base. what more were you expecting out of him
I know the level of play has risen tremendously. By enormous leaps and bounds. I know this is pre-Boxer, and I know build orders and maps were extremely unstandardized and that players nowadays have a huge resource pool and history to craft their play with. But still, its a little jarring to think that an OSL finalist was once basically playing on a level lower than many ICCUP players, or hell, some bnet players.
-> because this final happened when sc and bw were little over 2 years old. i bet the majority of your many iccup players and bnet players have played much longer than that and on top of it they have been babysitted by replays, builds and strategies that came from the innovations of the very players youre mocking
Watching this video has also made me immensely grateful to Boxer and it truly hits home how important he was (and many of his contemporaries).
It's depressing how I get better and better, but relatively, so does the community and it's a higher and higher goal to come to. In 2001 I was much closer than I am now to any sort of success, and I sucked, and still do.
On January 30 2008 02:14 SoMuchBetter wrote: is probably the worst professional televised game ever played. Its the only game I've ever watched where I thought to myself "Dude, I could have done better than this". I shook my head in disbelief as Skelton ran around his speedlings in Garimtos base for 2 straight minutes doing nothing at all but losing the occasional ling. Dude, you have speedlings in a protoss base and you're a progamer on TV!
-> garimto had his mineral line covered with zeals. do you want him to magically voodoo all of garimtos probes to death?
I don't want to rag on the guy, but since you're making it a debate, you dont have to hit the mineral line to harass a protoss base with speedlings. He did absolutely nothing but lose lings. Not one probe killed, not one building hit, etc.
On January 30 2008 02:14 SoMuchBetter wrote: On top of that he goes 1 hatch lurker (!)
-> was a natural follow up to 9pool back in the day
bumbles his first lurker around and takes a bunch of damage from zealots (!) (above ground!)
-> because they came across the morphing egg? not even the best player in the world could have kept in full health here
and then proceeds to lose it to a cannon.
-> it was a judgment call on whether it would make it past the cannon. u cant claim that players dont make mistakes these days so why couldnt they make mistakes 8 years ago
The reason he lost it to the cannon was because he stopped it right before it died. The reason the cannon is alive at all is because a probe (!) killed the lings attacking it. Also, he lost an overlord (!!!) to the same cannon. Thanks to that, his second lurker couldn't attack up the ramp or do anything useful, really.
On January 30 2008 02:14 SoMuchBetter wrote: The second fares little better.
-> he tried to run it around the zeal and took a couple of hits. big deal.
Right afterwards 2 hydralisks are lost in a display of un-micro that I wouldn't expect to see from a Bnet pubbie.
-> they were unupgraded hydra trapped outside of his base. what more were you expecting out of him
They were trapped outside his base because he brought them there, heh. :p
On January 30 2008 02:14 SoMuchBetter wrote: I know the level of play has risen tremendously. By enormous leaps and bounds. I know this is pre-Boxer, and I know build orders and maps were extremely unstandardized and that players nowadays have a huge resource pool and history to craft their play with. But still, its a little jarring to think that an OSL finalist was once basically playing on a level lower than many ICCUP players, or hell, some bnet players.
-> because this final happened when sc and bw were little over 2 years old. i bet the majority of your many iccup players and bnet players have played much longer than that and on top of it they have been babysitted by replays, builds and strategies that came from the innovations of the very players youre mocking
I'm not mocking them. Garimto is one of the most important BW players ever. And I'm sure there were high quality games then, I mentioned that in the OP, and I've watched a few. But... this particular game is not really a good game at all (even compared to the rest of the series...) and the zerg is playing pretty bad even by the standards of the day, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. I mean in game 3 he loses an expo to a DT because he forgets an overlord, and he brings his muta back to save the expo... but he can't because no overlord, so why did he even bring them back? Stuff like that.
Lol thats pretty funny. <3 ninja costumes =P and SoMuchBetter (11th post), he got his hydras trapped, it was bad micro. I mean what was he busy doing? macro'ing his one hatchery? Waste of 150 mins -.-
lmao that zerg playing was hilarious, 1 hatch for almost the entire game ftw! edit: he should've done 1 hatch mutas to die to like 1 cannon and 2 dragoons or something rofl
I remember back then, the most workers I would have in one base would be 1 per mineral, probably less. Defense was heavy and popular. I didnt even know about micro until I saw the first Pimpest Plays and BoxeR's amazing moves.
Tbh, every time I watch an old game like that I wonder if I couldn't play better than that today. I really think players weren't that good back then. Of course, at that time, nobody was better and I was amazed by their plays. But also if I watch FPVods from that time, where I know I was amazed at how quick they were, I get the feeling that my mechanics are better than theirs was. And todays players are on a whole different level.
And strategy-wise: well, as has been said, 1-hatch play was pretty common back than. Btw, just yesterday I thought that it should be possible to use those old strategies against the newer players who never experienced that phase where the newer strats were being developed. So I tried the good old 1-Hatch Lurker vs Terran, bringing an Overlord to shoot up his ramp (which every oldschool Terran knows you aren't gonna hold without a bunker up your ramp) and it worked like a charm. =)
On January 30 2008 08:38 Asta wrote: Tbh, every time I watch an old game like that I wonder if I couldn't play better than that today. I really think players weren't that good back then. Of course, at that time, nobody was better and I was amazed by their plays. But also if I watch FPVods from that time, where I know I was amazed at how quick they were, I get the feeling that my mechanics are better than theirs was. And todays players are on a whole different level.
And strategy-wise: well, as has been said, 1-hatch play was pretty common back than. Btw, just yesterday I thought that it should be possible to use those old strategies against the newer players who never experienced that phase where the newer strats were being developed. So I tried the good old 1-Hatch Lurker vs Terran, bringing an Overlord to shoot up his ramp (which every oldschool Terran knows you aren't gonna hold without a bunker up your ramp) and it worked like a charm. =)
Do you happen to have any links to old FPVOD's? Sounds fun to watch.
On January 30 2008 08:38 Asta wrote: Tbh, every time I watch an old game like that I wonder if I couldn't play better than that today. I really think players weren't that good back then. Of course, at that time, nobody was better and I was amazed by their plays. But also if I watch FPVods from that time, where I know I was amazed at how quick they were, I get the feeling that my mechanics are better than theirs was. And todays players are on a whole different level.
And strategy-wise: well, as has been said, 1-hatch play was pretty common back than. Btw, just yesterday I thought that it should be possible to use those old strategies against the newer players who never experienced that phase where the newer strats were being developed. So I tried the good old 1-Hatch Lurker vs Terran, bringing an Overlord to shoot up his ramp (which every oldschool Terran knows you aren't gonna hold without a bunker up your ramp) and it worked like a charm. =)
Do you happen to have any links to old FPVOD's? Sounds fun to watch.
Here's one:
Garimto vs Ssamjang. Its actually a very entertaining game if you're into this sort of thing, its wild and woolly and unrefined and quite different. + Show Spoiler +
The heavy proxy sunken contain, the 7 DT drop that rapes every single building in the Zerg main, the super cautious expoing, storms killing lurks in one hit, using shuttles to ferry his entire army past the sunks to go rape the zerg expo, its all very alien to the modern game :p
EPT
